Last Adam became a life-giving spirit.

[KSA]

Originally Posted by SpeakersCorner

I'm not sure I see metonymy here, KSA. YP is correct in his explanation of what metonymy is and perhaps there is some going on here but I don't see it. However, I am open to further explanation of what both of you see here concerning this.

I will not insist that it is metonymy. It is not too important. But I will try to explain once again why I think it is a metonymy. One of the types of the metonymy (I think it is called synecdoche) is when the whole is called by part (or vice versa). For example, you call a person "blue eyes", you call the whole person by one feature of his. This is synecdoche. Christ is called a life-giving spirit, because spirit now animates his spiritual body. I think it is a case of synecdoche too. If you disagree, it is fine.

[Thankful Jane]

Originally Posted by KSA

Christ is called a life-giving spirit, because spirit now animates his spiritual body.

I like this statement KSA. Here are my thoughts on this.

I think this is what the scripture shows and it fits with the whole context of I Cor. 15. He was raised a spiritual body. I find the following verses very interesting:

Luk 24:37-39 But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit. And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts? Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

In essence he was assuring them he had not become a spirit!

Lee taught over and over again that the last Adam became the life-giving Spirit, but Jesus didn't say this.

It was the perfect opportunity. Why didn't he tell the disciples, "Yes, you are seeing a spirit. That is because I have become the Life-giving Spirit." ? Instead he proved to them that he was not a spirit but was still flesh and bones, a spiritual body.

This was the clencher for me, that in I Cor. 15 Paul was talking about what was animating Christ, as you said. Adam is animated (alive) by blood. Christ in resurrection is "flesh and bones" ("blood" not mentioned) and animated (alive) by the Spirit.

I also see a strong implication in I Cor. 15 of something else. The first Adam was a living soul, and, clearly, like him we all are living souls. The Bible says that when we see the Lord, the second man, as He is, we will be like Him. By following through with the parallel Paul was making, couldn't he have been showing that in resurrection we too will have flesh and bones and be animated (alive) by the Spirit?

Thankful Jane

[Paul Miletus]

Originally Posted by Thankful Jane

I like this statement KSA. Here are my thoughts on this.

I think this is what the scripture shows and it fits with the whole context of I Cor. 15. He was raised a spiritual body. I find the following verses very interesting:

Luk 24:37-39 But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit. And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts? Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

In essence he was assuring them he had not become a spirit!

Lee taught over and over again that the last Adam became the life-giving Spirit, but Jesus didn't say this.

It was the perfect opportunity. Why didn't he tell the disciples, "Yes, you are seeing a spirit. That is because I have become the Life-giving Spirit." ? Instead he proved to them that he was not a spirit but was still flesh and bones, a spiritual body.

This was the clencher for me, that in I Cor. 15 Paul was talking about what was animating Christ, as you said. Adam is animated (alive) by blood. Christ in resurrection is "flesh and bones" ("blood" not mentioned) and animated (alive) by the Spirit.

I also see a strong implication in I Cor. 15 of something else. The first Adam was a living soul, and, clearly, like him we all are living souls. The Bible says that when we see the Lord, the second man, as He is, we will be like Him. By following through with the parallel Paul was making, couldn't he have been showing that in resurrection we too will have flesh and bones and be animated (alive) by the Spirit?

Thankful Jane

I believe it is far beyond with our imagination that in the Lord Jesus Christ resurrection he was being animated by the Spirit. This kind of concept is totally contradicting the very Scripture as shown below:

John 20
Jesus Appears to His Disciples
19On the evening of that first day of the week, when the disciples were together, with the doors locked for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said, "Peace be with you!" 20After he said this, he showed them his hands and side. The disciples were overjoyed when they saw the Lord.
21Again Jesus said, "Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you." 22And with that he breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit. 23If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven."

The Scriptures tell us clearly that the Lord Jesus Christ is BOTH Man and God (Spirit). As a Man, "he showed them his hands and side" and the disciples "saw the Lord". As God (Spirit), He was able to be with the disciples though the doors were locked where they were staying. He became omnipresent. In addition, as God (Spirit) "he breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit"."

This series of event in John 20 does not convince me that the Lord Jesus Christ was being animated by the Spirit as suggested by other posters. In fact, John 20 was the fulfillment of the Lord Jesus Christ earlier statements in the following scriptures:

John 14
16And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever— 17the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you. 18I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you.

The Lord Jesus Christ was able to breathe on the disciples and saying "Receive the Holy Spirit" because the "another Counselor" mentioned in John 14:16 is He Himself as "the Spirit of truth". Notice verse 17 that "The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him." In addition, the Lord Jesus said to the disciples "But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you." How can the disciples know "him" ("another Counselor") if at that time the Lord Jesus Christ was about to ask the Father to send "the Spirit of truth". The key words is "But you know him, for he lives with you." Who lives with the disciples but no other than the Lord Jesus Christ. At that time, the Lord Jesus Christ was "Immanuel" (God is with us); but after the death and resurrection of the Lord Jesus He became a life-giving Spirit in order for him to be IN us. This is the very reason why the Lord Jesus Christ said "and will be in you" (future tense) which was fulfilled in John 20:22.

Look! The Lord Jesus Christ has even affirmed to the disciples in verse 18 that "I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you." The "another Comforter" is no other than the Lord Jesus Christ Himself!

Therefore, 1Corinthians 15:45 "the last Adam became a life-giving Spirit" is not an animation of the Lord Jesus Christ by the Spirit, but rather the Lord Jesus Christ is the real ALL-INCLUSIVE SPIRIT! The last Adam became a life-giving Spirit! Hallelujah! Amen.

[djohnson(XLCmember)]

PaulM is there such a thing as a Spirit who is not all-inclusive?

[OBW]

DJ,

Are you suggesting that the Spirit is fully inclusive of everything and there is not a separate “all-inclusive Spirit”? I banish you to the LSM dungeon to work the printing presses for the rest of your life!!

All kidding aside. This LC lexicon of alternate terminology for normal things needs to be ripped-up one term at a time. It is a blight on any possible oneness.

Keep up the good work.

[Thankful Jane]

Originally Posted by Paul Miletus

The Lord Jesus Christ was able to breathe on the disciples and saying "Receive the Holy Spirit" ....Therefore, 1Corinthians 15:45 "the last Adam became a life-giving Spirit" is not an animation of the Lord Jesus Christ by the Spirit, but rather the Lord Jesus Christ is the real ALL-INCLUSIVE SPIRIT! The last Adam became a life-giving Spirit! Hallelujah! Amen.

Dear Paul M,

The verse that says Christ breathed on the disciples and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit" is perfectly true. This is in no way contradictory with the idea that the new physical being of Christ (the one in resurrection) was alive by the Spirit. He was clearly alive by the power of the Holy Spirit that raised him from the dead. He was clearly able to give this Spirit, the Holy Spirit, to the disciples, He had authority to do that because He had paid the debt for sin and removed the hindrance to this being done. The Spirit could not be given to man (John 7:39) until the sin debt was paid.

Here is the problem with your oracle’s teaching, as I have told you, I believe, at other times:

Here are Witness Lee's words: “In His resurrection a life-giving Spirit was produced (1 Cor. 15:45). Before Christ’s resurrection, there was not such a life-giving Spirit in the universe. John 7:39 says that ‘the Spirit was not yet, because Jesus had not yet been glorified’; that is, Jesus had not yet entered into resurrection (Luke 24:26). On the day that He entered into resurrection, the life-giving Spirit was produced.” Witness Lee, The Organic Union in God’s Relationship with Man (Anaheim, CA: Living Stream Ministry, 1993), p. 40.

This is a false teaching. The Holy Spirit existed in completeness before the resurrection of Christ and it could "give life" before the resurrection of Christ:

Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

Look closely at this verse. This Spirit -- the Spirit that raised Christ from the dead -- is the one Paul says is in us today! And it clearly was already in existence before Christ was raised from the dead. So, what spirit then is “the Life Giving Spirit” that Lee is referring to when he says “before Christ’s resurrection, there was not such a life-giving Spirit in the universe?” Lee says “the life giving Spirit” was "produced" on the day Christ entered into resurrection.” Re-read what Lee said. He plainly said this. I am not twisting his words in any way but calling them out for what they actually say.

Lee’s teaching is a false teaching. According to his very own words the Spirit he is talking about in I Corinthians 15:45b cannot be the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit was not produced on that day.

If he did not mean to teach this, and maybe he didn’t, then he clearly made a big mistake in what he spoke and what he published. In that case, the LSM publishers need to retract what I quoted from their materials and all such similar teaching from their publications, with an apology.

Thankful Jane

[Thankful Jane]

Lee also said:

“Do our opposers believe that there are two Spirits who give life, the Holy Spirit and the life-giving Spirit? It is heretical to teach that there are two life-giving Spirits, two Spirits who give life.” (W. Lee, Bound Life-Study of I Corinthians, p. 617)

As I have shown with his own words in the previous post, what Lee actually did was teach there was another Spirit which could give life that was produced on resurrection day, one which never existed before in the universe. He did this after declaring boldly at another time that anyone who taught there were two spirits who could give life was teaching heresy. There is no need for us to say this is heresy. Lee stands self-condemned.

Thankful Jane

[UntoHim]

Ok YP, very well then. I'll stick with 1 Cor 15:45 a little while if you promise to play nice

I must say that your "a banana - the banana" illustration is really like comparing apples to oranges

I am sure that you would agree that every time the word pneuma is used, is is not always referring to the Person of the Holy Spirit. Furthermore, you are quite mistaken regarding the usages of articles in biblical Greek. Many times they do indeed make a substantial and meaningful difference (you see I didn't sleep through every one of those classes in my 3 semesters of biblical Greek)

Anyway, I will still continue to beat the drum of the orthodox view of the Trinity as stated by so many of the early church fathers and a number of the early creeds and now by the vast majority of evangelical/orthodox Christianity - To wit... Our God is one. Our God is three Persons, The Father, The Son and the Holy Spirit who are equal in substance, holiness power and glory. As I think I may have stated before...God is one is a way that we cannot fully comprehend or understand...He is also three is a way that we cannot fully comprehend for understand... What He is not (or should I say what He does not do) is CHANGE. One Person of the Godhead does not "become" one of the others - No way, No how. God does not even "change economically" or "in His economy for His move on earth" any more then He changes essentially. This IS the crux of the matter as far as I can see.

[YP0534]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Ok YP, very well then. I'll stick with 1 Cor 15:45 a little while if you promise to play nice

I must say that your "a banana - the banana" illustration is really like comparing apples to oranges

I am sure that you would agree that every time the word pneuma is used, is is not always referring to the Person of the Holy Spirit. Furthermore, you are quite mistaken regarding the usages of articles in biblical Greek. Many times they do indeed make a substantial and meaningful difference (you see I didn't sleep through every one of those classes in my 3 semesters of biblical Greek)

Anyway, I will still continue to beat the drum of the orthodox view of the Trinity as stated by so many of the early church fathers and a number of the early creeds - To wit... Our God is one. Our God is three Persons, The Father, The Son and the Holy Spirit who are equal is substance, holiness power and glory. As I think I may have states before...God is one is a way that we cannot fully comprehend or understand...He is also three is a way that we cannot fully comprehend for understand... What He is not (or should I say what He does not do) is CHANGE. One Person of the Godhead does not "become" one of the others - No way, No how. God does not even "change economically" or "in His economy for His move on earth" any more then He changes essentially. This IS the crux of the matter as far as I can see.

There is a case of deja vu going on here for me.

Here's the deal:

I most certainly did NOT say that the article NEVER means anything. To the contrary, I gave an example of a place where I think it matters very much, which once again was not addressed.

Your Greek education notwithstanding, you still have not addressed my very simple illustration of the problem with your analysis except to make a (rather poor) joke about fruit. You could change the object on the table to any other article you might find less amusing if it would assist you in comprehending the pertinent issue in the illustration. Sometimes, the distinction between the articles is meaningless.

But I'm not even concerned about either of these things, any more so than I was a little while ago. Homey don't play that. That's all.

So, again, please beat your drum loudly if this pleases you.

I said it before. It's your place and I'm just a guest here.

But if I want orthodoxy, I'll just find a Jesuit.

[Shawn]

Originally Posted by Thankful Jane

Dear Paul M,

Here is the problem with your oracle’s teaching, as I have told you, I believe, at other times:

Here are Witness Lee's words: “In His resurrection a life-giving Spirit was produced (1 Cor. 15:45). Before Christ’s resurrection, there was not such a life-giving Spirit in the universe. John 7:39 says that ‘the Spirit was not yet, because Jesus had not yet been glorified’; that is, Jesus had not yet entered into resurrection (Luke 24:26). On the day that He entered into resurrection, the life-giving Spirit was produced.” Witness Lee, The Organic Union in God’s Relationship with Man (Anaheim, CA: Living Stream Ministry, 1993), p. 40.

This is a false teaching. The Holy Spirit existed in completeness before the resurrection of Christ and it could "give life" before the resurrection of Christ:

Thankful Jane

Hi TJ,

I hope you caught the distinction between the use of life giving Spirit vs. the Holy Spirit you mentioned in refuting the other posters position.

Yes, the Holy Spirit has always existed, but the Holy Spirit could not enter into man as the giver of Gods life, until the death and ressurrection of our Lord Jesus; it was at this point that the Holy Spirit could become the life giving Spirit.This is the main point as I understood it from brother Lee's ministry. Not two Spirits but one Spirit that became the life giver to man after the Lords ressurrection.

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by Shawn

..Yes, the Holy Spirit has always existed, but the Holy Spirit could not enter into man as the giver of Gods life, until the death and ressurrection of our Lord Jesus; it was at this point that the Holy Spirit could become the life giving Spirit.This is the main point as I understood it from brother Lee's ministry. Not two Spirits but one Spirit that became the life giver to man after the Lords ressurrection.

Shawn, in order for God to "enter into man as the giver of God's life", it was NOT GOD that had to change but US. WE had to repent (change), We had to be cleansed.. We had to be forgiven, the changing was all on our part and NOT God's. The Spirit has always, always been life giving. God is life, the Holy Spirit is God therefore HE IS LIFE and gives life to every creature. He did not have to change or even be "intensified" to give us life.

[Shawn]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Shawn, in order for God to "enter into man as the giver of God's life", it was NOT GOD that had to change but US. WE had to repent (change), We had to be cleansed.. We had to be forgiven, the changing was all on our part and NOT God's. The Spirit has always, always been life giving. God is life, the Holy Spirit is God therefore HE IS LIFE and gives life to every creature. He did not have to change or even be "intensified" to give us life.

I agree with you in that man had to change from his sinful position, but it was not we who changed, for we are still sinners after we receive the Lord, It was the Lord in His humanity that gave us the forgiviness of sins, that we can repent and become born again.

Yes, the Spirit could always give life, but it was not until the LAST ADAM that this life could be received by us.

I am not an WL defender, but the simple explanation of the verse agrees with the thought that the Last Adam became a life giving spirit. your explanation of your perspective is technically right, but argues with the context of the verse. why argue with the word of God? Or, should we put a disclaimer at the end of the verse that this Spirit of course, was always life giving?

[Thankful Jane]

Originally Posted by Shawn

Hi TJ,

I hope you caught the distinction between the use of life giving Spirit vs. the Holy Spirit you mentioned in refuting the other posters position.

Yes, the Holy Spirit has always existed, but the Holy Spirit could not enter into man as the giver of Gods life, until the death and ressurrection of our Lord Jesus; it was at this point that the Holy Spirit could become the life giving Spirit.This is the main point as I understood it from brother Lee's ministry. Not two Spirits but one Spirit that became the life giver to man after the Lords ressurrection.

Hi Shawn,

How do you then explain Romans 8:11 which says that the Spirit that dwells in us is the one that raised Christ from the dead?

The truth is that we could not receive the Holy Spirit until Christ completed the sacrifice for our sins. Nothing happened to the Holy Spirit to make it the life-giving Spirit. It clearly was already such a Spirit, able to give life.

Witness Lee said: "Before Christ’s resurrection, there was not such a life-giving Spirit in the universe."

Thankful Jane

[YP0534]

Originally Posted by Thankful Jane

Hi Shawn,

How do you then explain Romans 8:11 which says that the Spirit that dwells in us is the one that raised Christ from the dead?

The truth is that we could not received the Holy Spirit until Christ completed the sacrifice for our sins. Nothing happened to the Holy Spirit to make it the life-giving Spirit. It clearly was already such a Spirit, able to give life.

Thankful Jane

Alright, Thankful's on a considerable path here so I'll go ahead and make my observation.

Folks, "became" is not in the Greek text at all, you know?

All the Greek says is "the last Adam, a life-giving Spirit."

It's not an unreasonable interpretation by any means to supply "became," but, neither is it absolutely required by the context. Supplying the word "is" would potentially preserve the author's intent just as well.

Thusly:
The first man, Adam, became a living soul; but the last Adam is a life-giving Spirit.

I'm not sure it moves the ball much on distinctions between Persons in the Trinity and such but it would kick a lot of the wind out of an exaggerated notion about the second "becoming."

Does this reading somewhat mesh with what your considerations are here?

[Thankful Jane]

Originally Posted by Shawn

Yes, the Holy Spirit has always existed, but the Holy Spirit could not enter into man as the giver of Gods life, until the death and ressurrection of our Lord Jesus; .

Okay, I'm with you up to here, Shawn ...

Originally Posted by Shawn

it was at this point that the Holy Spirit could become the life giving Spirit.

I'm no longer with you on this. The Bible shows plainly that the "life-giving" Spirit already existed. The truth is that it was at this point that God accepted Christ's offering for sin (as evidenced by His resurrection) and we were able to believe God's forgiveness and receive the Holy Spirit. No change happened in the Holy Spirit so that it could become something it wasn't before this.

Originally Posted by Shawn

This is the main point as I understood it from brother Lee's ministry. Not two Spirits but one Spirit that became the life giver to man after the Lords ressurrection.

Shawn, I understood this, too. When I was under WL's ministry, I didn't believe he taught that there were two Spirits. I simply believed there was a new and improved version of the Spirit after the resurrection, because Lee told me there was. I believed it was only this new product that could give us life. I didn't question anything. I didn't look at the Bible for myself and pray and ask God to show me if this was true. I just believed Witness Lee because he was older and knew the Bible better than I did.

When He said God had been under a long process to make this new product, I said amen. I believed the processed Triune God teaching that said there was no life-giving Spirit until Christ resurrected.

Lee clearly taught this. He said that after Christ's resurrection, the Spirit, after a long process finally had all the necessary ingredients and had become a new product . There is no question that he taught this. He taught this plainly. This is what I am objecting to.

The Spirit didn't need any new ingredients. Everything Christ needed to tabernacle in the flesh on the earth, to walk without sin, to be obedient unto death, to be raised from the dead was in existence in God before Christ became flesh. God prepared a body for him through the virgin birth, not so He could add some new ingredients to the godhead, but so he could be a sacrifice for our sins. (Heb. 10:5-13).

To say otherwise is to say that God was lacking something and was under development in order to become something over time. This is exactly what Lee said. This is not true. The Bible does not support this. Lee brought this teaching into being through faulty interpretations.

He used his interpretation of John 7:37-39 to support his belief about the development of God, saying this verse shows the product wasn't complete yet. He then used his "compound" ointment interpretation of Exodus 30 to support his belief further. (I'll comment on Ex. 30 in my response to Paul M.)

The gospel is simple. Jesus is God's Lamb. In Him we see God's self-sacrificing love for us. As God's Lamb He suffered and died so we could be saved from our sins and be reconciled to God. We can now have a relationship with God by faith. Just what is wrong with this gospel? Why do we need some kind of teaching about a new God product? The gospel doesn't need improvement nor does God.

It's not too late to humble ourselves like little children and pray and ask God to show us what is true. I am starting to learn to do that. We each need to be persuaded in our own mind using the tools God gave us (the Bible, prayer, fellowship with others, etc.).

Why is all this important? Because wrong beliefs about God and about how he relates to us can hurt our walks with God. I have experienced myself and witnessed firsthand how Lee's teachings in this vein have hindered people from having real relationships with a living God who relates to each of us as unique individuals.

God is a living, interactive being who talks with us, asks questions of us, answers questions, corrects, instructs, encourages, leads, etc. He empowers us by His Spirit as we are in fellowship with Him. God isn't just some new product with power packed ingredients that will automatically do things for us without our conscious involvement if we just keep the intravenous line connected by calling and pray-reading.

I have seen the trail of tears of those who took Lee's teaching and way as the way. But that is another topic.

Thankful Jane

[Paul Miletus]

Originally Posted by Thankful Jane

I'm no longer with you on this. The Bible shows plainly that the "life-giving" Spirit already existed. The truth is that it was at this point that God accepted Christ's offering for sin (as evidenced by His resurrection) and we were able to believe God's forgiveness and receive the Holy Spirit. No change happened in the Holy Spirit so that it could become something it wasn't before this.

If the Bible shows plainly that the "life-giving" Spirit already existed, why then the following Scriptures say:

John 7:37-39
37On the last and greatest day of the Feast, Jesus stood and said in a loud voice, "If anyone is thirsty, let him come to me and drink. 38Whoever believes in me, as[a] the Scripture has said, streams of living water will flow from within him." 39By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive. Up to that time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified.

The Spirit became "a life-giving Spirit" only after the death and resurrection of the Lord Jesus. Through incarnation, the Lord Jesus was the "Immanuel" (God is with us); through death and resurrection, the Lord Jesus became "a life-giving Spirit" wherefore now He can come INTO us to those who believe in Him.

Brother Witness Lee clearly taught with regards to 1Corinthians 15:45 as follows:

Through creation Adam became a living soul with a soulish body. Through resurrection Christ became a life-giving Spirit with a spiritual body. Adam as a living soul is natural; Christ as a life-giving Spirit is resurrected. First, in incarnation He became flesh for redemption (John 1:14, 29); then, in resurrection He became a life-giving Spirit for the imparting of life (John 10:10b). Through incarnation He had a soulish body, as Adam had; through resurrection He has a spiritual body. His soulish body has become a spiritual one through resurrection. Now He is a life-giving Spirit in resurrection, with a spiritual body, ready to be received by His believers. When we believe into Him, He enters our spirit, and we are joined to Him as the life-giving Spirit. Hence, we become one spirit with Him (6:17). Our spirit is made alive and is resurrected with Him. Eventually, our present soulish body will become a spiritual body in resurrection, just like His (vv. 52-54; Phil. 3:21).

[Paul Miletus]

Originally Posted by Thankful Jane;1254[FONT=Verdana

Here are Witness Lee's words: “In His resurrection a life-giving Spirit was produced (1 [/FONT]Cor. 15:45). Before Christ’s resurrection, there was not such a life-giving Spirit in the universe. John 7:39 says that ‘the Spirit was not yet, because Jesus had not yet been glorified’; that is, Jesus had not yet entered into resurrection (Luke 24:26). On the day that He entered into resurrection, the life-giving Spirit was produced.” Witness Lee, The Organic Union in God’s Relationship with Man (Anaheim, CA: Living Stream Ministry, 1993), p. 40.

This is a false teaching. The Holy Spirit existed in completeness before the resurrection of Christ and it could "give life" before the resurrection of Christ:

Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

Look closely at this verse. This Spirit -- the Spirit that raised Christ from the dead -- is the one Paul says is in us today! And it clearly was already in existence before Christ was raised from the dead. So, what spirit then is “the Life Giving Spirit” that Lee is referring to when he says “before Christ’s resurrection, there was not such a life-giving Spirit in the universe?” Lee says “the life giving Spirit” was "produced" on the day Christ entered into resurrection.” Re-read what Lee said. He plainly said this. I am not twisting his words in any way but calling them out for what they actually say.

Lee’s teaching is a false teaching. According to his very own words the Spirit he is talking about in I Corinthians 15:45b cannot be the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit was not produced on that day.

You have quoted Romans 8:11, but please allow me to include verses 9 and 10 --

Romans 8
9You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ. 10But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness. 11And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you.

Again, Brother Witness Lee explained --

"In Romans 8:9-11 the Spirit of God, the Spirit of Christ, Christ Himself, and the indwelling Spirit are interchangeably used. These are not four persons but one person. The Spirit of God is the Spirit of Christ, the Spirit of Christ is Christ Himself, and Christ Himself is the life-giving Spirit dwelling in us to impart the Triune God into our being."

Again, the Old Testament scriptures (Exodus 30:23-25) will be very helpful in our understanding regarding the Spirit that "was not yet" in John 7:37-39.

This life-giving Spirit is the all-inclusive, compound Spirit typified by the compound anointing ointment in Exodus 30:23-25. Now the Spirit is no longer just the Spirit of God typified by the olive oil but is the compound Spirit typified by the ointment formed by compounding a hin of olive oil with four spices—myrrh and cinnamon (signifying Christ's death with its effectiveness) and calamus and cassia (signifying Christ's resurrection with its power). As the compounded, all-inclusive, life-giving Spirit, He is now an ointment compounded with the four factors of God, man, Christ's death, and Christ's resurrection.

Thankful Jane, I totally agree with you that the Spirit "was already in existence before Christ was raised from the dead as typified by the olive oil as shown in Exodus 30:23-25. However, with Christ's death and resurrection (as implied in John 7:39 - Jesus was not yet glorified), the Spirit became a life-giving Spirit (all-inclusive, compound Spirit).

Shawn's post explains it more clearer...

Originally Posted by Shawn

Hi TJ,

I hope you caught the distinction between the use of life giving Spirit vs. the Holy Spirit you mentioned in refuting the other posters position.

Yes, the Holy Spirit has always existed, but the Holy Spirit could not enter into man as the giver of Gods life, until the death and ressurrection of our Lord Jesus; it was at this point that the Holy Spirit could become the life giving Spirit.This is the main point as I understood it from brother Lee's ministry. Not two Spirits but one Spirit that became the life giver to man after the Lords ressurrection.

Brother Witness Lee's teaching on this subject is very clear based on the Word of God. He was able to interpret the Word of God (John 7:37-39) using the Word of God (Exodus 30-23-25).

[djohnson(XLCmember)]

PaulM do you mean that the Father and the Son became the Holy Spirit after the resurrection?

[Peter Debelak]

I personally think the crux of the disagreement here again boils down to the language Lee used and the emphases he employed – rather than on whether he was patently wrong/heretical/etc…

God is spirit. Always has been, always will be. Its how he does that cool thing of being everywhere at once.

The Son of God, (aka the “second Person” of the Trinity), has eternally existed and has eternally co-existed with the other “two Persons” of the Trinity. Same with the Holy Spirit (aka the “third Person” of the Trinity).

But God was not, in eternity past, human. He was not “flesh.” Nor did humanity have any “divinity” as such.

When Christ came in the flesh, he brought divinity into humankind. But he was flesh – which meant he was limited spacially. His being had defined limits of time and space. God had never experienced this before. So, we should be careful about how broad we make the scope of statements like “God is unchangeable.” It doesn’t make that phrase incorrect to say that it has a particular scope.

Further, the actual experience of a human life, a life of temptation and of limitation, was never “part of” or experienced by God prior to Christ’s incarnation and life.

When Christ incarnated, humanity and divinity were merged – but only in this physical being, Jesus, as he walked and moved on earth in time and space.

In resurrection, humanity – personified by ADAM – was merged with divinity as spirit, not just in the Person of Jesus, the physical being in time and space. No “entity” came into existence that was not already existing. There was just something that was “added” to that entity, which is spirit. There can be unintended adverse effects of using this language, but I think it is apt to say God went through a “process” and that humanity was “added” to God. What that means to me is that I do not have a High Priest that cannot be touched with a feeling of my weaknesses. Inside me is God – God as Spirit. It’s the same God who took on human form and went to the cross for me. Does that confound the second and third persons of the trinity? I don’t know. But the scripture hasn’t given me any commands not to “confound persons,” so I am not too concerned. Its just what the Bible seems to be teaching.

As always, I’m open to being taught, reproved, corrected, or instructed differently. .

Peter

[KSA]

So are you saying I do not have spiritual discernment? An easy loophole for you, don't you think so?

You say that the Spirit has not changed, but you also say that humanity was added to the Spirit. If something was added to the Spirit, it means that the Spirit changed. If the humanity was added to the Spirit, does it mean that a human body was also added to the Spirit.