Regarding The Mission and Operation of this Forum

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Jay, you really need to take it down a notch or two with your flippant posts on this thread. You are being moderated because you're being unreasonable. Please reconsider and maybe take a step back for a day or two. This thread will still be open and waiting for you when you come back.

Everyone else is encouraged to make their thoughtful and reasonable posts!
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There are posts by Evangelical on this very thread that are worse than Jay's that went through without the bat of an eye or a whiff of moderation. EvanG called people "delusional" and after being pushed back on he remained "unapologetic" and said "if you want local church people here expect local church answers". And don't get me started on all the countless terrible things both Evangelical and Drake used to say on so many other threads without moderation!

UntoHim, please, with all due respect, the adults on this forum are capable of having adult conversations about a variety of topics that include tense moments, flippant remarks, problematic answers, etc. When those kind of things were posted in the past, the discussion just continued. I recall many times it took quite a few back and forths where it became clear to all that the discussion was being derailed and blowing up into shrapnel before you would step in. That was the light touch that allowed healthy discussion to flourish prior to this point.

Three contributing members - aron, ACuriousFellow, and Jay - have now been moderated in the past few months where they were not even allowed to send PMs, and were not allowed to post anything on the forum before it goes through an approval process, and absolutely none of them have said anything that I would ever consider even close to a real problem on a discussions forum of this type.

Many people have left in the past few years for this exact reason, and you are giving good reason for the remaining few to leave too. Please reconsider the approach you have been taking recently.

I've corresponded with you a few years ago about something similar and always tried to remain respectful, and I recall saying that I would only "push back" once or twice and then let it go because it is not my call. That is still true. This is the only post I intend to write about this unless there is some good public discussion about it that follows. You are welcome to respond publicly by telling me all the reasons I'm wrong or inappropriate, etc, for writing this post, and I won't bite back. I'll let your words stand.

This is what I would suggest - open up a public thread that invites the input of the members and unregistered lurkers. Ask them if they think the moderation here has been healthy moderation or has been unhealthy and heavy-handed moderation. Receive the responses without responding or defending so that people can feel free to be honest without having to worry about getting in contentious back-and-forths. Just solicit the input and that's it. If the responses come in that those reading/writing are fine with it, then so be it - I'm wrong and I'm fine for people to see that I'm wrong. But if the responses come in that there's a problem, then please be willing to hear it.

If you are not willing to do a public thread soliciting input, then that I think will also show there is a problem. But I think you will be willing to do it because I actually recall that you did one similar not that long ago (maybe sometime within the past year)......although now that I think about it, not many people answered, so maybe this will be pointless from the start.

I hope you will leave this post up rather than delete it. There is nothing disrespectful about it or that breaks the rules in it. Thanks for listening.

Trapped

[ThankfulForever777]

Originally Posted by Trapped

Three contributing members - aron, ACuriousFellow, and Jay - have now been moderated in the past few months where they were not even allowed to send PMs, and were not allowed to post anything on the forum before it goes through an approval process, and absolutely none of them have said anything that I would ever consider even close to a real problem on a discussions forum of this type.

Many people have left in the past few years for this exact reason, and you are giving good reason for the remaining few to leave too. Please reconsider the approach you have been taking recently.

I'm new here, but I agree with Trapped. From what I've seen, Jay didn't do anything to deserve a ban or restrictions. Moderation should be more lenient, like on Facebook, to encourage more discussion.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by ThankfulForever777

I'm new here, but I agree with Trapped. From what I've seen, Jay didn't do anything to deserve a ban or restrictions. Moderation should be more lenient, like on Facebook, to encourage more discussion.

Jay's offending comments are no longer posted on the main page. Since you haven't seen the deleted/moderated posts, maybe this will help you to understand our issues. I can tell you that Jay's offensive comments were dripping with sarcasm and insults toward other members. Jay and ACuriousFellow crossed a line which we could not ignore. The quickest way to take a topic off track and/or start a food fight is to ignore such behavior.

A deleted post from ACuriousFellow follows:

**********************************
It's quite unfortunate what is happening here, UntoHim, and Nell.
You remove my ability to speak freely.
You delete my words and therefore bear false testimony by saying my claims are baseless.
You remove my power to message with others privately.
I had not taken you two to be such wicked cowards who cannot face the truth and apologize to others properly.
But you know that there are some who already saw my post.

And you know that many saw your hypocritical behavior in that Trinity thread.
And you know that we are not fools who cannot see what you are doing in censoring others.
Congratulations to the master of this house and his servant for following the pattern of Witness Lee and his successors.
And despite the fact that everyone sees your wickedness, it seems most remain silent.
Or perhaps they were silenced as well?
May the Lord rebuke you two for your hypocrisy, wickedness, and your cowardly behavior. You should be ashamed of yourselves.

John 3:19-21
19 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20 Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed. 21 But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what they have done has been done in the sight of God.

*******************************
You may contrast this post with the Mission Statement.

We made multiple attempts to mediate ACF's problem with us. We asked for written evidence he claimed to have against us...with no response other than to repeat comments similar to the statements above.

We tried to help him understand that he never had the ability to "speak freely". His only ability was to speak within the guidelines of the Mission Statement. This is all we ask of anyone.

I don't know if Facebook has a Mission Statement. I don't know if Facebook has a desire to adhere to Christian standards, but we do.

Both ACuriousFellow and Jay have a pathway back to the forum. However, in all good conscience, we cannot/will not lower our standards to comply with such fleshly "adult conversation" that does not comply with our Mission Statement.

I don't know if this dialog is offensive enough to help you reconsider your remarks above. As stated, I realize that the most offensive of the posts from anyone who gets moderated will never be seen. We have no desire to provide a place for angry souls to come and vent unabated. We are here to discuss. Both parties need to listen. That doesn't always happen.

We pray that the Lord will bless this forum by providing many who are able to help those who have been hurt by the behavior of the Local Church Leadership, et al. Posts like the one above, in my opinion, do not help anyone.

Nell

[ThankfulForever777]

Originally Posted by Nell

It's quite unfortunate what is happening here, UntoHim, and Nell.
You remove my ability to speak freely.
You delete my words and therefore bear false testimony by saying my claims are baseless.
You remove my power to message with others privately.
I had not taken you two to be such wicked cowards who cannot face the truth and apologize to others properly.
But you know that there are some who already saw my post.
And you know that many saw your hypocritical behavior in that Trinity thread.
And you know that we are not fools who cannot see what you are doing in censoring others.
Congratulations to the master of this house and his servant for following the pattern of Witness Lee and his successors.
And despite the fact that everyone sees your wickedness, it seems most remain silent.
Or perhaps they were silenced as well?
May the Lord rebuke you two for your hypocrisy, wickedness, and your cowardly behavior. You should be ashamed of yourselves.

Hi Nell, I just wanted to clarify, was this ACF's message a response to your actions, or was it prior to your actions? I would be curious to see the messages that were the basis for the initial ban.

Here is an example of the Facebook guidelines for groups like this:

Respect Others: Treat all members with respect and kindness. Avoid personal attacks, harassment, bullying, or hate speech.

Stay on Topic: Keep discussions relevant to the group's purpose or theme. Off-topic posts may be removed.

No Spam: Do not excessively promote products, services, or self-promotional content. Spamming may result in removal from the group.

No Hate Speech or Discrimination: Do not post content that promotes discrimination, racism, sexism, or any form of hate speech.

No Illegal or Inappropriate Content: Do not post illegal, violent, explicit, or inappropriate content. This includes graphic images or explicit language.

Respect Privacy: Do not share personal information about other members without their consent.

Be Civil: Engage in constructive discussions and debates. Avoid heated arguments or trolling behavior.

No Unauthorized Selling or Trading: Do not sell or trade items without prior approval from group administrators.

Follow Facebook's Community Standards: Adhere to Facebook's Community Standards and Terms of Service.

Respect Group Guidelines: Follow any additional guidelines or rules specific to the group, as set by the administrators.

These rules help maintain a positive and respectful environment within the Facebook group. Administrators may enforce these rules through warnings, post removal, or member removal, depending on the severity of the violation.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by ThankfulForever777

Hi Nell, I just wanted to clarify, was this ACF's message a response to your actions, or was it prior to your actions? I would be curious to see the messages that were the basis for the initial ban.

Here is an example of the Facebook guidelines for groups like this:st removal, or member removal, depending on the severity of the violation….

The posts are mostly on the Economy of God thread. This post was among the last.

Please read our Mission Statement on the main page of this forum, which has existed since 2008.

Nell

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by ThankfulForever777

Hi Nell, I just wanted to clarify, was this ACF's message a response to your actions, or was it prior to your actions? I would be curious to see the messages that were the basis for the initial ban.

Thankful, to be clear, the post that Nell cited was made in response to their actions, i.e., after ACF was moderated. So that was his reaction to being moderated.

Moderating involves being unable to send or receive PMs anymore and means any post you try to write won't be posted unless it is physically approved, which is why you see that language referenced in his post.

Trapped

[UntoHim]

My brothers and sisters.
Sorry for my late reply here. Actually I was going to post something very similar to what Nell has posted.

I think that some of you have lost sight of what this forum is all about. Maybe some of you have never really known (or cared about) what this forum is all about. I think about, and hope for, and pray about this every day for the past 15+ years. I don't think about this as being a cross, but if it is, I gladly bear it no matter how much anyone calls me a coward, a hypocrite, unfair, or unreasonable.

Maybe some of you may have had LSM operatives dig through your trash, harass your innocent relatives at semi-annual training meetings and speak evil things about you among Blended brothers and their associates. Maybe some of you have been in the gunsights of the DCP (Defense & Confirmation Project) and the hundreds of thousands of dollars at their disposal to make you and your family uncomfortable. I hope and pray that you have not.

I would encourage all of you to read the entire forum Mission Statement again (that is if you've actually ever read it to begin with). And if you would forget all else in this statement, I would hope that you could remember this one part:
As such, we believe we have experiences beneficial to others who have left the Local Church and have been damaged while faithful to that group. Our desire is to share with others who were hurt and broken by their experiences, and hopefully help others find their way back to the Lord Jesus Christ and to the True Gospel.

To Nell and I, there are only two groups of people that this forum exists for: Those of us who have have a desire to share with others who have found our way back to the Lord Jesus Christ, and have found the True Gospel; And those who who have been damaged in the Local Church of Witness Lee, and whom the Lord has brought to us in this forum to "shine the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ". If there are others that have a different understanding, and a different agenda, they are more than welcome to observe and even participate to a limited degree, but they will not be allowed to sidetrack, much less greatly hinder the operation of the general mission of this forum.

The Lord bless you
and keep you;
the Lord make his face shine on you
and be gracious to you;
the Lord turn his face toward you
and give you peace.
Numbers 6:24-26
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[Trapped]

UntoHim, you made a suggestion to read the forum mission statement, and I have indeed read it several times - when they were refreshed a couple years ago, then again after that when there were other issues, and then again just a couple days ago.

I think where I'm kind of stuck is not with the official mission statement, but with what was recently posted as a clarification to it. I was surprised to read this statement:

"We don’t leave it to our “poster children” to determine what is condescending and what isn’t; what is “bashing” and what isn’t."

I don't know who the poster children are, but I do know that I am not one of them. Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but this sentence seems to be saying "We won't take the input of anyone, even those who have been valuable contributing members. We and only we [the moderators] determine what is condescending or bashing, and we will not take any feedback from anyone who disagrees".

That is how this sentence comes across. Is this the message that was intended? If so, can you understand why some people would trip over it, given how much this sounds like Witness Lee and the co-workers of the LC? And also given that there could be many who are particularly sensitive to having something co-worker/Lee-esque instituted?

If it's not what was intended, can there be clarification, because I could use some clarification!

Thanks,

Trapped

[TheStarswillFall]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

My brothers and sisters. Sorry for my late reply here. Actually I was going to post something very similar to what Nell has posted.
I think that some of you have lost sight of what this forum is all about......-

UntoHim's post is very clear and resonates strongly with me.

Below is a PM I recently sent to an "offender":

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MemberX, are you for real or are you part of DCP?

I don't post on this forum often, but I do put a premium on the service rendered by this online community for mostly ex LC members (like myself). I used to enjoy reading most of the threads on here.

Since you've started posting on this forum you have managed to greatly dilute the value of this forum.

Your posts are mostly trivial and of little to zero value to those who genuinely seek help outside of the LC.

I beg you, stop spamming this forum.

If you believe the LC is God's move on the earth then why on God's green earth are you spending hours and hours babbling away on this forum? Seems very hypocritical to me.

Again, I beg you to stop spamming this forum with irrelevant posts.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

My sentiment (and frustration) seems to be 100% aligned with this forum's intended purpose.

Not to throw verses around, but Paul said: "Foolish questionings arising from an untrained mind - REFUSE!"

Why would we go out of our way to facilitate and entertain what Paul said should be refused? Surely there must be a level of moderation when it comes to countless posts (by the same member) displaying an untrained mind.

If someone genuinely seeks help his posts will affirm his sincerity and vice versa.

[Ohio]

I had planned to stay out of this particular discussion, but …

I believe Jay posts in good faith, and more importantly, he has a mindset that matched my own for some 30 years, so his voice should be welcomed.

However, I have also been around here a long time, and it is a privilege, not a right, to post here. This forum has a Mission Statement with clearly defined rules enforced by UntoHim and Nell. These rules grew out of years of violations, so they are not negotiable. Amen?

Discussions here, and even spirited debates, must only be based on Scripture and reasoned ideas. This is challenging, I agree. But the line cannot be crossed and become personal. There are Christian standards here that will be upheld. Ad hominems are always the easy way out, but must not be resorted to. Like the Lord instructs us, apologies then can quickly restore communication.

[Nell]

Trapped,

Understood. You addressed your concerns to UntoHim. Since we co-moderate, I'm taking the liberty of responding.

Fear not. We're still all about the Mission Statement. Nothing has changed. Glad you've read it multiple times. Asking questions is still allowed. A poster child is simply "one who posts." I've used this expression multiple times. We're not digressing to Witness Lee, et al, tactics.

Everyone has sensitivities of one kind or another.

I hope this helps to clarify your concerns.

Nell

[Trapped]

TheStarsWillFall,

I see you joined the forum recently, but I am not sure if you were reading/lurking for much prior to it?

In recent years the forum has mostly been former LC members discussing, with just a sprinkle of drive-by current LC members who just post one or two posts as "unregistered" and then never appear again. Prior to that there were two current LC members, Drake and Evangelical, who posted frequently for several years, and their posts were similar to Jay's. Actually, Jay's are "better" in the sense that he will actually acknowledge specific details of serious problems, etc, which Drake/EvanG rarely would. Unfortunately, the very nature of the LC itself means that anyone from it who posts here will be posting these kinds of posts....there's just no way around it. It's literally the nature of the beast, so to speak.

For those who have left, reading these kind of posts are frustrating, but they are indeed part of the mission of the forum, as UntoHim and Nell have stated, and has been the case for quite some time. The reason they are helpful is because they often contain many of the very thoughts and reasons and teachings that keep people trapped in the LC, and this forum is one of the only places where they can be publicly countered. The interaction of "both sides" is invaluable, as much as it is frustrating and feels like spam. Of course the mods can determine how much is too much.

But I've been helped myself a TON just in the past week or so from what ACuriousFellow in particular has written in response to Jay's posts. We wouldn't get the extremely helpful input if there weren't the typical LC posts coming in to respond to!

Trapped

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I had planned to stay out of this particular discussion, but …

I believe Jay posts in good faith, and more importantly, he has a mindset that matched my own for some 30 years, so his voice should be welcomed.

However, I have also been around here a long time, and it is a privilege, not a right, to post here. This forum has a Mission Statement with clearly defined rules enforced by UntoHim and Nell. These rules grew out of years of violations, so they are not negotiable. Amen?

Discussions here, and even spirited debates, must only be based on Scripture and reasoned ideas. This is challenging, I agree. But the line cannot be crossed and become personal. There are Christian standards here that will be upheld. Ad hominems are always the easy way out, but must not be resorted to. Like the Lord instructs us, apologies then can quickly restore communication.

I agree Jay has a mindset that we can all recognize from the LC and should be welcomed.

I don't think anyone necessarily thinks it's a right to be able to post here. I've always known this whole thing is at the discretion of UntoHim and whoever is co-mod at the time. I remember when there used to be a small donation box on the left and Nell was a frequent donator. That donation box was always a reminder to me that this forum comes with a cost and there are people behind the scenes making all this work.

It's funny, I looked up "what does a forum moderator do" last night and the phrases I saw on various articles were things like "unsung heroes" and "thankless job". Seems about right.

I agree the rules should be followed, but "not negotiable" makes it sound like there is no room for "hey what about this?" kind of good faith questions in response to the rules. I think Nell's response indicates this is still possible, which I think helps clear up a source of misunderstanding that had occurred.

I kind of disagree that discussions must only be based on Scripture and reasoned ideas, no ad hominems, etc.... The reason I say this is because that would preclude lots of LC members who are quite literally not used to even thinking that way! If this was the case, then half of Drake/EvanG's posts which were not based even remotely on reasoned ideas would have been deleted and shut down long ago and they would have been modded out of here. But that would have subsequently also eliminated all the helpful stuff that came out of those kind of posts of theirs. Ad hominems need to be allowed, at least a little, so that people who don't know what an ad hominem is (i.e. ME when i was in the LC!!) have a chance to learn without being ejected. We all seemed to be able to take all that in stride pretty easily in the past, so I don't know why we can't now. I think this is part of where I'm fumbling around on this.

Trapped

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Trapped

I kind of disagree that discussions must only be based on Scripture and reasoned ideas, no ad hominems, etc.... The reason I say this is because that would preclude lots of LC members who are quite literally not used to even thinking that way! If this was the case, then half of Drake/EvanG's posts which were not based even remotely on reasoned ideas would have been deleted and shut down long ago and they would have been modded out of here. But that would have subsequently also eliminated all the helpful stuff that came out of those kind of posts of theirs. Ad hominems need to be allowed, at least a little, so that people who don't know what an ad hominem is (i.e. ME when i was in the LC!!) have a chance to learn without being ejected. We all seemed to be able to take all that in stride pretty easily in the past, so I don't know why we can't now. I think this is part of where I'm fumbling around on this. Trapped

When I mentioned “reasoned” above, I actually pictured that famous scene with Martin Luther at the Diet of Worms, when he spoke to Papal Inquisitors risking it all …

Unless I am convinced by the testimony of the Scriptures or by clear reason (for I do not trust either in the pope or in councils alone, since it is well known that they have often erred and contradicted themselves), I am bound by the Scriptures I have quoted and my conscience is captive to the Word of God. I cannot and will not recant anything, since it is neither safe nor right to go against conscience. May God help me. Here I stand. I can do no other. Amen.

OK, I admit that I tend to extremes at times, but what a scene that was!

What I meant by “reason” was being genuinely thoughtful as opposed to being reactionary and lashing out. This forum, and the previous Bereans, has gone thru many combative times. At one point a poster suggested a simple “pause and pray” before pressing the submit button. Not a bad idea for us.

I’m not privy to the posts that were recently deleted by moderation, but I myself have had many posts deleted, or “archived.” And I’m talking about literally thousands! Every time it happened I was upset, if for no other reason than my time writing was “wasted.” Oh well … not the first or last time in life I’ve been insulted. Not to get too spiritual here, but Jesus was also insulted on numerous occasions, and this experience can actually be quite beneficial for us.

But to your point, Trapped we do want all LC members to be free to express themselves. Sometimes it ain’t pretty. Often it’s not what, but how they do this. Discussions can be very frustrating, I agree. LC life evokes many raw feelings, some of which were completely suppressed until visiting this forum, and then let loose. Each of us brings our own vernacular here, often with varying standards of communication “decency.”