First Post kumbaya

[Drake]

Originally Posted by kumbaya

I said, 10% of a persons INCOME.

LSM does not get 10% of a person’s income.

Drake

[Drake]

Kumbaya>”If you don't agree with any of this (with all due respect)...why are you on here?”

Kumbaya, it is simple. I am here because I care.

Drake

[Drake]

LofT>”Please humor me, which locality could you use as an example. ”

LofT,

Why do you ask?

Seriously.

Drake

[leastofthese]

Originally Posted by Drake

LofT>”Please humor me, which locality could you use as an example. ”

LofT,

Why do you ask?

Seriously.

Drake

I find your questioning very interesting Drake.

It was a simple question that continues to be drawn out needlessly.

The real question is....Why not answer?

[Drake]

Originally Posted by leastofthese

I find your questioning very interesting Drake.

It was a simple question that continues to be drawn out needlessly.

The real question is....Why not answer?

Think about it LofT. I have stated that EVERY place I have lived used xerox copies. You have agreed because you have seen it yourself. Therefore, what purpose would disclosing where I lived serve to add anything to your or my argument?

Drake

[kumbaya]

Originally Posted by Drake

Think about it LofT. I have stated that EVERY place I have lived used xerox copies. You have agreed because you have seen it yourself. Therefore, what purpose would disclosing where I lived serve to add anything to your or my argument?

Drake

bc everyone has a hard time believing you dude.

[leastofthese]

Originally Posted by Drake

Think about it LofT. I have stated that EVERY place I have lived used xerox copies. You have agreed because you have seen it yourself. Therefore, what purpose would disclosing where I lived serve to add anything to your or my argument?

Drake

You are changing the premise of our conversation. We are not talking about making Xerox copies - I agreed with you that this happens.

You’ve been in the LSM churches for 4 decades. Claiming it to be widespread fact that several churches do not purchase materials from the LSM (and only to the LSM) and then distribute to their members. You don’t need to provide a locality that you’ve lived in. Where did you jump to that conclusion?

Also - I started with a simple question, not making an argument. But your continual sidestep and diversion is starting to make me wonder. Especially because you stated it was so widespread that my question was irrelevant.

Maybe I’ll start a thread so others can jump in?

[Drake]

LofT>”Claiming it to be widespread fact that several churches do not purchase materials from the LSM (and only to the LSM) and then distribute to their members. You don’t need to provide a locality that you’ve lived in. Where did you jump to that conclusion?”

LofT,

I did not say several churches do not purchase materials from LSM. As far, as I know every church does. I said, THE PREMISE, LSM does not force local churches to buy books even if they could not sell them to the saints, as was alleged. Furthermore, LSM does not even force members of the local churches to buy books such as HWFMR even though as a publisher they have rights to enforce it. Instead, they will allow copies to be made under circumstances as a further proof point that they are not after your money. And to refute the rest of the fake news money report that members of the local church are required to pay 10% of their income to LSM for the rest of their lives, well, if anyone believes that they will gobble up anything.

Your request for the name of a locality as a reference is completely irrelevant since I have observed these matters in EVERY place I have lived and attended. You confirmed the same with your own experience. No further details about a locality (where I lived) are needed to prove the point.

Drake

[Drake]

Duplicate.

[kumbaya]

Originally Posted by leastofthese

You are changing the premise of our conversation. We are not talking about making Xerox copies - I agreed with you that this happens.

You’ve been in the LSM churches for 4 decades. Claiming it to be widespread fact that several churches do not purchase materials from the LSM (and only to the LSM) and then distribute to their members. You don’t need to provide a locality that you’ve lived in. Where did you jump to that conclusion?

Also - I started with a simple question, not making an argument. But your continual sidestep and diversion is starting to make me wonder. Especially because you stated it was so widespread that my question was irrelevant.

Maybe I’ll start a thread so others can jump in?

I fully support this post. Can we all just answer the questions that are asked? I feel we are, Drake- you're not.

[Betsy]

Originally Posted by Drake

Think about it LofT. I have stated that EVERY place I have lived used xerox copies. You have agreed because you have seen it yourself. Therefore, what purpose would disclosing where I lived serve to add anything to your or my argument?

Drake

None of the 6 churches with which I am familiar use xerox copies of their Morning Revival. Xerox copies are used in the trainings one pays to attend.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Renee

None of the 6 churches with which I am familiar use xerox copies of their Morning Revival. Xerox copies are used in the trainings one pays to attend.

Drake is a wordsmith and only stated that every place he lived used Xerox copies. Never said Xerox copies of what. He is always factual, but may not be truthful. He is a window into the soul of LSM.

[kumbaya]

Originally Posted by Drake

LofT>”Please humor me, which locality could you use as an example. ”

LofT,

Why do you ask?

Seriously.

Drake

Answering a question with a question? I'll answer it for you.

No one has seen the behavior that you're describing so they would like examples or evidence. Least of These agreed there were Xerox copies. His question to you was, "What locality was not required to purchase material from LSM?"

We all agree that the purchased material could be copied with a copy machine. I think we're all on the same page now, lol.


Now, are you going to answer the question or not?

Which locality are you using as your example that wasn't required to purchase material from LSM?

[kumbaya]

Originally Posted by Drake

Kumbaya>”If you don't agree with any of this (with all due respect)...why are you on here?”

Kumbaya, it is simple. I am here because I care.

Drake

you care about.... what?

you're on a board where we're all trying to communicate and heal and you're not trying to do that.

What are you trying to do?

[kumbaya]

Originally Posted by Drake

Kumbaya>”If you don't agree with any of this (with all due respect)...why are you on here?”

Kumbaya, it is simple. I am here because I care.

Drake

If you're going to respond to my posts, would you mind responding to ALL the questions I've asked you? bc if you're going to pick and choose, its not a logical or fair argument.

Which you're showing to be a true enforcer of. (If you take that as bait I won't respond).

So.... debate rule #101 (sorry-can't help myself)....

I've made it clear why I care to be on a forum like this- to heal and connect.
I mentioned it seems like you don't need that and you're just disrupting said healing/connection by disagreeing with every experience we had.

But, they are OUR experiences. You have your own but you can't dismiss mine,

So, I told you the reason that I "care" and that I'm on this board but it seems like if you "care" you should go find a board where you can either reasonably provide actual proof or evidence that our experiences aren't the norm or go connect with people who are like minded as you.

So again, we're trying to heal and connect. Well, I am. What are you trying to do? You don't care to heal from pain/connect with like minded people/provide any evidence that our experiences aren't valid or the norm......so, how is that showing "care?"

Do I need to tell you that you're coming off as a bully or do you already know that?

[kumbaya]

Originally Posted by Drake

LSM does not get 10% of a person’s income.

Drake

they get a portion of their tithes, yes- they do!!!!!!!!

I'm assuming the saints tithe 10%, some more- some less.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by kumbaya

they get a portion of their tithes, yes- they do!!!!!!!!

I'm assuming the saints tithe 10%, some more- some less.

10% tithing is not taught - the tithe was an old testament concept and one of legality. If any are giving 10% in a legalistic way, that's their business really, and even some might give in the hope of getting a double fold triple special blessing seed, I don't know.

[Drake]

Kumbaya>”But, they are OUR experiences. You have your own but you can't dismiss mine,”

Kumbaya,

That is correct. It works both ways.

Drake

[Drake]

Kumbaya>”So again, we're trying to heal and connect. Well, I am. What are you trying to do? You don't care to heal from pain/connect with like minded people/provide any evidence that our experiences aren't valid or the norm......so, how is that showing "care?"”

Kumbaya,

Without a doubt you will “connect”. Healing? That is another matter altogether.

What evidence did you find here that indicates this is a place to “heal”?

Drake

[kumbaya]

Originally Posted by Drake

Kumbaya>”So again, we're trying to heal and connect. Well, I am. What are you trying to do? You don't care to heal from pain/connect with like minded people/provide any evidence that our experiences aren't valid or the norm......so, how is that showing "care?"”

Kumbaya,

Without a doubt you will “connect”. Healing? That is another matter altogether.

What evidence did you find here that indicates this is a place to “heal”?

Drake

I'm already healing just knowing I'm not crazy and there are others who feel the same way as I do.

You can't take away my healing nor do I have to provide proof of it.

If anything, you are helping solidify my feeling that people in LC (as a whole) can't be reasoned with until they learn to see/accept that there are strong coercive persuasion tactics implemented in the LC and getting out of that mindset is a hard and difficult process.

[Drake]

Originally Posted by kumbaya

I'm already healing just knowing I'm not crazy and there are others who feel the same way as I do.

You can't take away my healing nor do I have to provide proof of it.

If anything, you are helping solidify my feeling that people in LC (as a whole) can't be reasoned with.

Kumbaya,

You are confusing finding comfort and solace with healing.

Healing requires a process that eventually leads one to another side and it often takes time. Yet, though observing many years, I do not see that here. One is not convincingly healed if they become belligerent and irritated when a reminder of their pain or discomfort makes an appearance. Nor is finding a like minded crowd or a group of sympathizers an indication of healing. Most likely just the opposite will be the case.

Drake

[kumbaya]

Originally Posted by Drake

Kumbaya>”But, they are OUR experiences. You have your own but you can't dismiss mine,”

Kumbaya,

That is correct. It works both ways.

Drake

ok, multiple times I've said that if you have a different experience- then thats great! Then I just made the point that most of us didn't have that experience so you were in the minority However, I still stated that if your experience was different then that was good!

How is that dismissing your experience? I was validating it, if anything!

The reason we're discussing it is because we all have had similar negative experiences and while its good to know that everyones experience (as you're saying yours was) isn't bad, most others on this board DID have a bad experience.

So, you have to recognize that the minority, or-exception to the rule, doesn't just get to be confrontational about what we're saying happened to us bc obviously, we wouldn't be here and all agree that there is a negative situation in the LC if we didn't all have bad experiences.

Again, lol- I'm not one the get worked up but I don't think I can keep going back and forth with you unless you keep it on topic and logical.

[Drake]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

10% tithing is not taught - the tithe was an old testament concept and one of legality. If any are giving 10% in a legalistic way, that's their business really, and even some might give in the hope of getting a double fold triple special blessing seed, I don't know.

Perhaps LSM operatives collect W2 forms of local church members, determine the 10% they are required to tithe (for the rest of their lives), and then somehow (this part is not exactly clear to me yet) collect the tithe from the local churches either by rifling through the non-descript offering boxes in the back corner of the meeting hall or some other yet to be defined collection mechanism like a QR code for an LSM mobile app.

Apparently, I missed the memo that went out about tithing to LSM. Could be a problem since I now owe over forty years of back tithes to LSM!

Drake

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Drake

Apparently, I missed the memo that went out about tithing to LSM. Could be a problem since I now owe over forty years of back tithes to LSM!

Drake

Dear Drake,

We are obviously contemporaries, since we both came into the LC as college students back in the 70's. I migrated twice to startup new LC's, which proved my commitment to the Recovery.

When it comes to all things LC/LSM, let me simply say, I Know What You Know. Sure, some of the people and the details differ, but we lived thru the same history with the same ministry. You can't fool me, and I can't fool you. I know when you are "lawyering" and "wordsmithing" with the facts of history.

You could really help your credibility here with a little honesty.

For example, we both know that LSM did not exact a tax on all LCers based on our 1040. Neither was tithing a legalistic practice.

BUT ... we both know that agents at LSM pressured every LC elder and worker to buy books, send their members to the "Feasts," send their young people to the FTTA, etc. Leaders who were not so "compliant," were occasionally made public spectacles. That doesn't have to happen very often to make a lasting impression. After an event like that, occasional reminders suffice, and LSM can return to their regularly scheduled program about the "liberty of the Spirit" which supposedly only we enjoyed.

[kumbaya]

[QUOTE=Ohio;67529]Dear Drake,

We are obviously contemporaries, since we both came into the LC as college students back in the 70's. I migrated twice to startup new LC's, which proved my commitment to the Recovery.

When it comes to all things LC/LSM, let me simply say, I Know What You Know. Sure, some of the people and the details differ, but we lived thru the same history with the same ministry. You can't fool me, and I can't fool you. I know when you are "lawyering" and "wordsmithing" with the facts of history.

You could really help your credibility here with a little honesty.

For example, we both know that LSM did not exact a tax on all LCers based on our 1040. Neither was tithing a legalistic practice.

BUT ... we both know that agents at LSM pressured every LC elder and worker to buy books, send their members to the "Feasts," send their young people to the FTTA, etc. Leaders who were not so "compliant," were occasionally made public spectacles. That doesn't have to happen very often to make a lasting impression. After an event like that, occasional reminders suffice, and LSM can return to their regularly scheduled program about the "liberty of the Spirit" which supposedly only we enjoyed.[/QUOTE

wow- thank you. I wonder if there will be a day when I can read things like this and not feel heartbroken. Knowing my family and friends are still in this very hard to accept.

[kumbaya]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

10% tithing is not taught - the tithe was an old testament concept and one of legality. If any are giving 10% in a legalistic way, that's their business really, and even some might give in the hope of getting a double fold triple special blessing seed, I don't know.

the point is LSM gets part of the tithes. never ever said that is was taught. Christians give in good faith and I believe there is a situation of exploitation with what the leading ones know the members will give and their plans with LSM.

[clever sister]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

10% tithing is not taught - the tithe was an old testament concept and one of legality. If any are giving 10% in a legalistic way, that's their business really, and even some might give in the hope of getting a double fold triple special blessing seed, I don't know.

I have been in the same room as Paul Hon while he strongly stated that we needed to give at a minimum 10% of whatever income we had.

On the matter of photocopies of ministry (Or Xerox as Drake has been calling it), yes my locality did sometimes make photocopies, but it was nearly always for new ones. Once you were more established in the LC you were expected to buy your own copies of the HWfMR.

At conferences we were always strongly encouraged to buy ministry books.

And I don't know how many ministry books I had to buy when I went to FTTH. We weren't allowed to just use the online versions (I doubt they were all available online anyway).

And a lot of saints have invested a lot of time and money to support the giving away of the Recovery Version NT Bible for free. My parents included. If I remember correctly the cost is about $10 per bible (may not a bit cheaper in $US). Who gets that $10?

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by clever sister

I have been in the same room as Paul Hon while he strongly stated that we needed to give at a minimum 10% of whatever income we had.

On the matter of photocopies of ministry (Or Xerox as Drake has been calling it), yes my locality did sometimes make photocopies, but it was nearly always for new ones. Once you were more established in the LC you were expected to buy your own copies of the HWfMR.

At conferences we were always strongly encouraged to buy ministry books.

And I don't know how many ministry books I had to buy when I went to FTTH. We weren't allowed to just use the online versions (I doubt they were all available online anyway).

And a lot of saints have invested a lot of time and money to support the giving away of the Recovery Version NT Bible for free. My parents included. If I remember correctly the cost is about $10 per bible (may not a bit cheaper in $US). Who gets that $10?

A devotional book goes for about 6-8 weeks. That's no more than 10 books a year. At $10 each that's only $100 per year. Hardly a burden for most. Anyway, I always buy the online version, it's only about $5. So yes, if you are new, or forgetful, a copy may be done, but I think it's right to pay for them eventually.

[clever sister]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

A devotional book goes for about 6-8 weeks. That's no more than 10 books a year. At $10 each that's only $100 per year. Hardly a burden for most. Anyway, I always buy the online version, it's only about $5. So yes, if you are new, or forgetful, a copy may be done, but I think it's right to pay for them eventually.

I wasn't talking about the HWfMR.

I was talking about the money (and time) my parents have poured into the "Free Bible" work the LSM promotes around the world. LSM prints the bibles themselves, yes, there would be some cost associated with that, but I doubt it is $10.

If they are really doing it to further the Word of God, wouldn't the provide the bibles at cost?

Maybe I am naive and under appreciate the cost of materials in actually producing the free Recovery Version bible.

[clever sister]

Originally Posted by clever sister

I wasn't talking about the HWfMR.

I was talking about the money (and time) my parents have poured into the "Free Bible" work the LSM promotes around the world. LSM prints the bibles themselves, yes, there would be some cost associated with that, but I doubt it is $10.

If they are really doing it to further the Word of God, wouldn't the provide the bibles at cost?

Maybe I am naive and under appreciate the cost of materials in actually producing the free Recovery Version bible.

Don't get me wrong, I know my parents gave to this cause voluntarily and they truly believed that these bibles would help get people saved.

But I just wonder at LSM's intentions at starting this work.

Was it for the Lord's work, or was it another way to get more money out of people like my parents who already had several RV versions, already had the entire Life study series and probably owned every ministry book published by LSM already?
Maybe they weren't happy only getting $100 a year from my parents via HWfMR (plus whatever my parents were giving to the local LC).

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by clever sister

I wasn't talking about the HWfMR.

I was talking about the money (and time) my parents have poured into the "Free Bible" work the LSM promotes around the world. LSM prints the bibles themselves, yes, there would be some cost associated with that, but I doubt it is $10.

If they are really doing it to further the Word of God, wouldn't the provide the bibles at cost?

Maybe I am naive and under appreciate the cost of materials in actually producing the free Recovery Version bible.

Why doesn't Zondervan do that as well?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by clever sister

I have been in the same room as Paul Hon while he strongly stated that we needed to give at a minimum 10% of whatever income we had.

Forget about 10%, the Blendeds have even commented that the entire LC offerings belongs to LSM.

In context, they mentioned how W. Nee had all the saints "hand over" everything they owned to his ministry.

Pretty scary. Pretty arrogant. Pretty deceptive.

[kumbaya]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Forget about 10%, the Blendeds have even commented that the entire LC offerings belongs to LSM.

In context, they mentioned how W. Nee had all the saints "hand over" everything they owned to his ministry.

Pretty scary. Pretty arrogant. Pretty deceptive.

Pretty scary indeed! When did they say this? Is there a record of it?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by kumbaya

Pretty scary indeed! When did they say this? Is there a record of it?

During the so-called "New Way" movement in Taipei during the late 80's.

It was spoken by Blendeds, doubt if it is in a book.