First Post kumbaya

[leastofthese]

Originally Posted by Drake

LofT>”Please humor me, which locality could you use as an example. ”

LofT,

Why do you ask?

Seriously.

Drake

I find your questioning very interesting Drake.

It was a simple question that continues to be drawn out needlessly.

The real question is....Why not answer?

[Drake]

Originally Posted by leastofthese

I find your questioning very interesting Drake.

It was a simple question that continues to be drawn out needlessly.

The real question is....Why not answer?

Think about it LofT. I have stated that EVERY place I have lived used xerox copies. You have agreed because you have seen it yourself. Therefore, what purpose would disclosing where I lived serve to add anything to your or my argument?

Drake

[kumbaya]

Originally Posted by Drake

Think about it LofT. I have stated that EVERY place I have lived used xerox copies. You have agreed because you have seen it yourself. Therefore, what purpose would disclosing where I lived serve to add anything to your or my argument?

Drake

bc everyone has a hard time believing you dude.

[leastofthese]

Originally Posted by Drake

Think about it LofT. I have stated that EVERY place I have lived used xerox copies. You have agreed because you have seen it yourself. Therefore, what purpose would disclosing where I lived serve to add anything to your or my argument?

Drake

You are changing the premise of our conversation. We are not talking about making Xerox copies - I agreed with you that this happens.

You’ve been in the LSM churches for 4 decades. Claiming it to be widespread fact that several churches do not purchase materials from the LSM (and only to the LSM) and then distribute to their members. You don’t need to provide a locality that you’ve lived in. Where did you jump to that conclusion?

Also - I started with a simple question, not making an argument. But your continual sidestep and diversion is starting to make me wonder. Especially because you stated it was so widespread that my question was irrelevant.

Maybe I’ll start a thread so others can jump in?

[Drake]

LofT>”Claiming it to be widespread fact that several churches do not purchase materials from the LSM (and only to the LSM) and then distribute to their members. You don’t need to provide a locality that you’ve lived in. Where did you jump to that conclusion?”

LofT,

I did not say several churches do not purchase materials from LSM. As far, as I know every church does. I said, THE PREMISE, LSM does not force local churches to buy books even if they could not sell them to the saints, as was alleged. Furthermore, LSM does not even force members of the local churches to buy books such as HWFMR even though as a publisher they have rights to enforce it. Instead, they will allow copies to be made under circumstances as a further proof point that they are not after your money. And to refute the rest of the fake news money report that members of the local church are required to pay 10% of their income to LSM for the rest of their lives, well, if anyone believes that they will gobble up anything.

Your request for the name of a locality as a reference is completely irrelevant since I have observed these matters in EVERY place I have lived and attended. You confirmed the same with your own experience. No further details about a locality (where I lived) are needed to prove the point.

Drake

[leastofthese]

Originally Posted by Drake

LofT>”Claiming it to be widespread fact that several churches do not purchase materials from the LSM (and only to the LSM) and then distribute to their members. You don’t need to provide a locality that you’ve lived in. Where did you jump to that conclusion?”

LofT,

I did not say several churches do not purchase materials from LSM. As far, as I know every church does. I said, THE PREMISE, LSM does not force local churches to buy books even if they could not sell them to the saints, as was alleged. Furthermore, LSM does not even force members of the local churches to buy books such HWFMR even though as a publisher they have rights to enforce it. Instead, they will allow copies to be made under circumstances as a further proof point that they are not after your money. And to refute the rest of the fake news money report that members of the local church are required to pay 10% of their income to LSM for the rest of their lives, well, if anyone believes that they will gobble up anything.

Your request for the name of a locality as a reference is completely irrelevant since I have observed these matters in EVERY place I have lived and attended. You confirmed the same with your own experience. No further details about a locality (where I lived) are needed to prove the point.

Drake

Take a deep breath Drake, your true colors are showing through again.

Feel free to re-read our conversation. I'll accept your decision to change the entire premise of our convo and let it die. You've made it clear in previous posts that you are against sharing your locality - and as I've said before - I respect that decision and have not asked for that in any way in this conversation. With 20-30 lurkers on this site at any given time, someone within the "church" is bound to find out... that will hurt your standing in the LSM - no doubt about it.

[Drake]

Originally Posted by leastofthese

Take a deep breath Drake, your true colors are showing through again.

Feel free to re-read our conversation. I'll accept your decision to change the entire premise of our convo and let it die. You've made it clear in previous posts that you are against sharing your locality - and as I've said before - I respect that decision and have not asked for that in any way in this conversation. With 20-30 lurkers on this site at any given time, someone within the "church" is bound to find out... that will hurt your standing in the LSM - no doubt about it.

LofT,

It is not my standing in the local churches or LSM that matters here. Your derogatory innuendo notwithstanding, read the private and if that doesn’t satisfy your suspicions then I got nothing else for you on this topic.

Drake

[JJ]

I’m thankful for this place for discussions like these. While they often get people riled up, to say the least. For decades they couldn’t happen in public without LSM or DCP lawsuit.

Kumbaya, welcome to a place to speak your concerns and seek healing.
As you can see, you are far from being alone. But, some won’t agree. Don’t mind Evangelical, Drake, or other LSM church defenders too much. If we had unanimity, discussions wouldn’t be as useful for “sharpening” us.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage...rbs%2027:17-19

[kumbaya]

Originally Posted by leastofthese

Take a deep breath Drake, your true colors are showing through again.

Feel free to re-read our conversation. I'll accept your decision to change the entire premise of our convo and let it die. You've made it clear in previous posts that you are against sharing your locality - and as I've said before - I respect that decision and have not asked for that in any way in this conversation. With 20-30 lurkers on this site at any given time, someone within the "church" is bound to find out... that will hurt your standing in the LSM - no doubt about it.

LofT, just curious- does the LC openly discourage people from reading or posting on this site?

I find it interesting if they discourage it....

When someone is innocent of wrongdoings, they are an open book- ready to defend and explain any situation and uncover every detail.

When, they are guilty- the opposite is true.

If the local church wasn't guilty of spiritual abuse (not to mention illegal activity but I won't go there), wouldn't they be on this site defending/providing proof of their innocence?

Why would they discourage others from reading unless they were afraid of their dirty laundry being aired?

BTW, Scientology/cult leaders do the same thing to their members. Everything from just verbal pressure to not read the material for FEAR (red flag of emotional abuse-FEAR TACTICS!) of being "poisoned" (oh-what a horrible word!) to outright control of the information coming in.

Of course, the latter is only done in the FTT. ugh.

[leastofthese]

Originally Posted by kumbaya

LofT, just curious- does the LC openly discourage people from reading or posting on this site?.

Hey Kumbaya,

Others on this forum will probably have a better answer for you. I can only speak to my experience.

There are really two ways to answer this question.

1. No, they do not openly discourage people from reading/posting on this site. I doubt the site is blocked on LSM church networks, and no one will be monitoring your web searches.

2. Yes, I was told by multiple people, across multiple localities, including church elder and full timers NOT to read stuff on the internet. They all called it poison. It made such an impression on me (as it was so clearly communicated) that I decided to heed their warning during my time at the church. My time with the church was intentionally dedicated to understanding and following their flow - which I did with fidelity until it was blatantly obvious that Witness Lee and the LSM are a farce. One member aptly calls it a "personality cult".

It is kind of like the point about being forced to buy HWMR. They didn't need to force me to purchase - I forked over my own money without anyone asking me to. BUT it was understood that in order to participate, fellowship, "prophesy", and interact with other members - you had to get a booklet. And everyone would say (publicly) how great and how much they "enjoyed" reading the books. Poorly written, devoid of Gods spirit, theologically questionable, and overall just an unenjoyable read. But in public, you say how great it was. That is how the game is played.

I am fortunate that I left the LSM churches without wounds (unlike many others on this site). My experience there was actually very pleasant. I knew all the right people and all the right people liked me. I was good material. I guess that is why some people stay, they are made to feel important, special, smart, spiritually mature, bigger and better than those in "poor degraded Christianity" (especially those nasty catholics ). I think what attracted people to me was Christ's Spirit within - a perfectly flawed believer made whole through the blood of Jesus. Just a regular dude, comfortable in his own skin, and willing to be the same person when talking to an elder or the janitor.

The Lord led my steps. May he continue to heal you and lead you closer to his grace, mercy, and truth.

[kumbaya]

Originally Posted by Drake

LofT>”Claiming it to be widespread fact that several churches do not purchase materials from the LSM (and only to the LSM) and then distribute to their members. You don’t need to provide a locality that you’ve lived in. Where did you jump to that conclusion?”

LofT,

I did not say several churches do not purchase materials from LSM. As far, as I know every church does. I said, THE PREMISE, LSM does not force local churches to buy books even if they could not sell them to the saints, as was alleged. Furthermore, LSM does not even force members of the local churches to buy books such as HWFMR even though as a publisher they have rights to enforce it. Instead, they will allow copies to be made under circumstances as a further proof point that they are not after your money. And to refute the rest of the fake news money report that members of the local church are required to pay 10% of their income to LSM for the rest of their lives, well, if anyone believes that they will gobble up anything.

Your request for the name of a locality as a reference is completely irrelevant since I have observed these matters in EVERY place I have lived and attended. You confirmed the same with your own experience. No further details about a locality (where I lived) are needed to prove the point.

Drake

You don't have to enforce anything when people do it without questioning.

(*mic drop*)

And its been documented in this thread what LSM does when churches stop buying LSM material in the past so, you don't have an argument here.

[Drake]

Duplicate.

[kumbaya]

Originally Posted by leastofthese

You are changing the premise of our conversation. We are not talking about making Xerox copies - I agreed with you that this happens.

You’ve been in the LSM churches for 4 decades. Claiming it to be widespread fact that several churches do not purchase materials from the LSM (and only to the LSM) and then distribute to their members. You don’t need to provide a locality that you’ve lived in. Where did you jump to that conclusion?

Also - I started with a simple question, not making an argument. But your continual sidestep and diversion is starting to make me wonder. Especially because you stated it was so widespread that my question was irrelevant.

Maybe I’ll start a thread so others can jump in?

I fully support this post. Can we all just answer the questions that are asked? I feel we are, Drake- you're not.

[Betsy]

Originally Posted by Drake

Think about it LofT. I have stated that EVERY place I have lived used xerox copies. You have agreed because you have seen it yourself. Therefore, what purpose would disclosing where I lived serve to add anything to your or my argument?

Drake

None of the 6 churches with which I am familiar use xerox copies of their Morning Revival. Xerox copies are used in the trainings one pays to attend.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Renee

None of the 6 churches with which I am familiar use xerox copies of their Morning Revival. Xerox copies are used in the trainings one pays to attend.

Drake is a wordsmith and only stated that every place he lived used Xerox copies. Never said Xerox copies of what. He is always factual, but may not be truthful. He is a window into the soul of LSM.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Drake is a wordsmith and only stated that every place he lived used Xerox copies. Never said Xerox copies of what. He is always factual, but may not be truthful. He is a window into the soul of LSM.

If the church owns a copy machine then it stands to reason they use copies. Doesn't mean they would make copies of LSM materials to distribute to the saints. Good catch.

[Intothewind]

Kumbaya,

Thanks so much for sharing and being brazen in questioning. It is upsetting to see major questions go unanswered.

You raise great points of talking to family. All ny immediate nuclear family are still very strong for the recovery indeed. So far as there belief system is concerned I'm damned but perhaps they are unaware of how far around my world view has flipped. I'm sure they pray for me, and I do still feel guilty.

I've had about the same level of success talking with my family as you have...and am out of ideas at this point.

[kumbaya]

Originally Posted by Intothewind

Kumbaya,

Thanks so much for sharing and being brazen in questioning. It is upsetting to see major questions go unanswered.

You raise great points of talking to family. All ny immediate nuclear family are still very strong for the recovery indeed. So far as there belief system is concerned I'm damned but perhaps they are unaware of how far around my world view has flipped. I'm sure they pray for me, and I do still feel guilty.

I've had about the same level of success talking with my family as you have...and am out of ideas at this point.

I'm sorry to hear that. Sometimes I feel like if they could just let their guard down for 5 minutes and get on this site, it would all come together for them. Or, in their eyes- all fall apart probably.

It's the getting 5 minutes of their guard down that's hard. I think the most important thing is that you have a relationship with them even if you don't agree right now. I have friends who grew up in the LC with me who have parents still in and in one situation, a parent of my friend doesn't even keep track of their grandkids ages. They are of sound mind, they just don't care. Their focus is on the people in the LC and LC only. They don't involve themselves in their kids/grandkids lives bc they don't go to the meetings anymore. Any time my friends sees her dad or her kids do, it's because SHE'S made the effort. Yet, they have college kids in their home at least once a week, probably more like 2-3 times a week. It's really hurtful to her. It's so sad but I'm honestly grateful my family isn't like that at all.

I just see what it could be with other people's situations so I would say that we are actually the lucky ones. I think keeping that relationship with them is the most important thing to me. I can't push too much - it's so hard though. It's just good to keep things in perspective- there a lot of disconnected families due to the LC. I think the extremeness of the LC lifestyle is shown so much when in comparison to other family members, it can be easier for them to just pull away than face it.

Anything you've tried that DIDN'T work you want to share? Also, what do you feel guilty about?