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[awareness]

Originally Posted by Trapped

Wait, wait, wait, where does the Bible say "you have to forgive no matter what" (which is what "no apology" implies)?

Jesus says forgive 70x7 "if they repent":

Luke 17:3
So watch yourselves. "If your brother or sister sins against you, rebuke them; and if they repent, forgive them.

Jesus says in Matthew 18 that if you have a problem with someone, go talk to them. If they don't "hear" (i.e. repent) He doesn't say "you have to forgive them". He says to ratchet it up and bring more people, and then tell the church, and then treat them as unbelievers if they don't repent. He never says "forgive no matter what".

Forgiveness is always predicated on repentance. That's how God forgives us in Christ (when we acknowledge our sins and repent of them).

Brother Trapped, aren't you combining two gospels to form one of your own? :

Mat 18:21* Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?*
Mat 18:22* Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.*

It says nothing about repentance.

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by awareness

Brother Trapped, aren't you combining two gospels to form one of your own?

Mat 18:21* Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?*
Mat 18:22* Jesus saith unto him, [COLOR=Red]I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.*

It says nothing about repentance.

What on earth do you mean about combining two gospels to form my own? I quoted directly from Luke. You're throwing out part of a gospel to create your own.

Luke 17:3-4
3 So watch yourselves.“If your brother or sister sins against you, rebuke them; and if they repent[/B], forgive them.
4 Even if they sin against you seven times in a day and seven times come back to you saying ‘I repent,’ you must forgive them.”

The parallel passage in Matthew does not have the phrase "and if they repent" but it immediately follows the passage I quoted in my post concerning "if they hear you", which is acknowledgement, godly sorrow, repentance.

Repentance is repeatedly the requirement for forgiveness.

1 John 1:9
If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Mark 1:4
And so John the Baptist appeared in the wilderness, preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins.

Acts 2:38
Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Acts 3:19
Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord,

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Trapped

What on earth do you mean about combining two gospels to form my own? I quoted directly from Luke. You're throwing out part of a gospel to create your own.

Luke 17:3-4
3 So watch yourselves.“If your brother or sister sins against you, rebuke them; and if they repent, forgive them.
4 Even if they sin against you seven times in a day and seven times come back to you saying ‘I repent,’ you must forgive them.”

The parallel passage in Matthew does not have the phrase "and if they repent" but it immediately follows the passage I quoted in my post concerning "if they hear you", which is acknowledgement, godly sorrow, repentance.

Repentance is repeatedly the requirement for forgiveness.

1 John 1:9
If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Mark 1:4
And so John the Baptist appeared in the wilderness, preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins.

Acts 2:38
Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Acts 3:19
Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord,

awareness needs to repent for bearing false witness against his forum neighbor.

[SerenityLives]

Originally Posted by Ohio

awareness needs to repent for bearing false witness against his forum neighbor.

What happened to turning the other cheek when someone slaps you?
See thats why sometimes I feel the Bible is contradictory at times.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by SerenityLives

What happened to turning the other cheek when someone slaps you?
See thats why sometimes I feel the Bible is contradictory at times.

You readily support the murder of defenseless unborn children, and then demand the aborted child to forgive you for being an inconvenience.

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by SerenityLives

What happened to turning the other cheek when someone slaps you?
See thats why sometimes I feel the Bible is contradictory at times.

There's no contradiction in this particular case.

The "if he repents" verses are about interactions among believers. The "turn the other cheek" is regarding unbelievers.

Matthew 5:39
But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also.

The "evil person" is not a believer, but an unbeliever. There are different requirements for believers versus unbelievers, and for interacting with believers versus unbelievers.

There is no case in the church where believers are told to be okay with unrepentant sin of another believer, but instead repeatedly say to rebuke and confront and address it. The only exception is 1 Corinthians 6 but that is regarding going as far as lawsuits, and it does not in any way mean that the Matthew 18 steps of confronting your brother, telling another, telling the church, and then treating them as tax collectors if they don't repent do not apply.

[SerenityLives]

Originally Posted by Trapped

There's no contradiction in this particular case.

The "if he repents" verses are about interactions among believers. The "turn the other cheek" is regarding unbelievers.

Matthew 5:39
But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also.

The "evil person" is not a believer, but an unbeliever. There are different requirements for believers versus unbelievers, and for interacting with believers versus unbelievers.

There is no case in the church where believers are told to be okay with unrepentant sin of another believer, but instead repeatedly say to rebuke and confront and address it. The only exception is 1 Corinthians 6 but that is regarding going as far as lawsuits, and it does not in any way mean that the Matthew 18 steps of confronting your brother, telling another, telling the church, and then treating them as tax collectors if they don't repent do not apply.

But we dont know if Love is a believer or unbeliever. She/he thinks you are in a bookclub

I just left the chat a few days ago and now this thread exploded. 😂 You guys got too crazy over me.

I feel loved.

I was never a part of this church so why should I register? Why would I even join considering that this group is a full of misinformed oldies? After Ohio the bitter old man falsely accused awareness, why should I join? Trapped and Sons of Glory believe that everything should be conditional once I apologize to them. You guys are cultists.

I was part of the Roman Catholic Church and I knew someone from Local Church.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by SerenityLives

But we dont know if Love is a believer or unbeliever. She/he thinks you are in a bookclub

Well plain and simple, they are. They're called people of the book.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Trapped

There's no contradiction in this particular case.

The "if he repents" verses are about interactions among believers. The "turn the other cheek" is regarding unbelievers.

Matthew 5:39
But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also.

The "evil person" is not a believer, but an unbeliever. There are different requirements for believers versus unbelievers, and for interacting with believers versus unbelievers.

There is no case in the church where believers are told to be okay with unrepentant sin of another believer, but instead repeatedly say to rebuke and confront and address it. The only exception is 1 Corinthians 6 but that is regarding going as far as lawsuits, and it does not in any way mean that the Matthew 18 steps of confronting your brother, telling another, telling the church, and then treating them as tax collectors if they don't repent do not apply.

Can I ask, believers in what? There wasn't a church at that point. There were synagogues. So believers in the Septuagint? I'm confused by believers in what?

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by awareness

Can I ask, believers in what? There wasn't a church at that point. There were synagogues. So believers in the Septuagint? I'm confused by believers in what?

The same body of people that Jesus was referring to in Matthew 18 when he said "tell it to the church", even though there wasn't the church when He said it. There is no need to assume Jesus was speaking concerning an already existing thing as opposed to it being future instruction.

In Matthew 16 Jesus had just told Peter that He would build His church. That church.

The "evil person" in the other verse I quoted can simply be a pagan or idol worshiper or unrighteous Roman (I have a vague recollection from somewhere that Romans could simply point to someone and make them carry their belongings for them.....don't quote me on that though).

[awareness]

Trapped, seems you used MS Word to create your post, so responding to it turns into too much work. Click on "quote" on your post to see the mess.

But in your response I see you used 5 books to form your own book.

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by awareness

Trapped, seems you used MS Word to create your post, so responding to it turns into too much work. Click on "quote" on your post to see the mess.

But in your response I see you used 5 books to form your own book.

I clicked quote and it looks perfectly normal to me. I expected to see weird formatting or code, but it's all normal.

Oh no! Repentance shows up in MULTIPLE BOOKS OF THE BIBLE as a precursor for forgiveness! How terrible of me to point it out!!


Edit to add: pardon the phrase here, but holy crap. On a hunch I opened it in a different browser (chrome versus firefox) and the mess showed up there. I deleted all the stuff, which I have no idea what it was. The code for formatting bold and italics, etc is still there (on firefox it doesn't show) but that should be handle-able. If you need to quote it, it should work now.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Trapped

I clicked quote and it looks perfectly normal to me. I expected to see weird formatting or code, but it's all normal.

Oh no! Repentance shows up in MULTIPLE BOOKS OF THE BIBLE as a precursor for forgiveness! How terrible of me to point it out!!


Edit to add: pardon the phrase here, but holy crap. On a hunch I opened it in a different browser (chrome versus firefox) and the mess showed up there. I deleted all the stuff, which I have no idea what it was. The code for formatting bold and italics, etc is still there (on firefox it doesn't show) but that should be handle-able. If you need to quote it, it should work now.

I forgive you. Now repenting would mean that you will sin no more. Was I right? That you wrote that post in MS Word?

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by awareness

I forgive you. Now repenting would mean that you will sin no more.

Nope, we've still got 70 x 7 minus 1 to go.

But I'll certainly try.

Originally Posted by awareness

Was I right? That you wrote that post in MS Word?

Right on the money. One of the rare times I involved MS Word because of the repeated bolding of phrases in the verses (that my CTRL+B shortcut no longer works with when composing in the forum box)....and all hell breaks loose. Learned my lesson on that one!

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by SerenityLives

To me the RCC is also a cult. so he/she may have some points here.. Let me ask you Trapped- if an adult sexually raped a minor and say that he/she has repented, and begged for forgiveness and they are both Christian, does that mean forgiveness is needed on the part of the minor? It seems more complicated than that. What if the minor had no proof that the perp actually really did repent? does that mean he’s she should take the word of the perp AS IS?

Well, I'm neither with the RCC nor with the LC, so "cultist" doesn't make any sense when directed at me.

Regarding the situation you described, my first reaction is that I'm not sure how realistic it is, for one main reason:

You are speaking of a "Christian sexual rapist".

You've said they are both Christian, and yet one raped the other. At that point I would have to stop you and say I have reasonable grounds to doubt the genuineness of the salvation of the rapist. The New Testament speaks often of the fruits of salvation, of the fruits that should be evident in the lives of real believers, and I have yet to find "rape" as one of the fruits listed.

There is such a thing as a false conversion, a false believer. Scripture is replete with examples. Someone who outwardly professes to be a Christian, but is not. They are the tares mixed in among the wheat (that look like the wheat, the genuine believer, but are not).

So as stated, I'm not sure the situation can stand on its own two feet.

Incidentally, this is how the "Matthew 18 principles" reveal a tare. A believer who is shown his sin by the offended party, who refuses to listen, who is then shown his sin by a few more, who still refuses to listen, who is then outed to the whole church, and STILL refuses to listen......we are told to treat him as a tax collector. He's a tare. A false believer.

But I think I do understand what you are getting at with the scenario you put forth. And although the details may vary, I don't think it's that uncommon for everyone to have to deal with some kind of variant of it at some point in their life, so it's worth asking.

Someone deals us a blow so deep, we all ask, "Do I really have to forgive THAT?"

I've personally dealt with something similar. Not rape, to be sure, but serious harm followed by fake apologies. Serious harm followed by what seemed like genuine apologies, but which "genuine" apologies were always immediately followed by more of the same intentional harm.

So I'll break my response up into two paths.

1. If the apology is genuine - if the apology of the offending party is genuine, godly sorrow, true repentance, then yes, the offended party is to forgive. Even if it's rape. Even if it's murder. Even if, even if. How can I say that? Because that is how God in Christ forgives us. If we acknowledge our sin before God, He forgives us. But notice what I'm NOT saying:

-I'm not saying forgiving means it didn't happen.
-I'm not saying forgiving means the trauma and pain and suffering of the victim aren't very, very real.
-I'm not saying that the victim has to forgive right away. Something like rape causes direct and deep trauma, and their physical, mental, emotional, psychological, relational, and spiritual healing, at least to me, should come first. Forgive when they can forgive. No one should be beating them over the head to forgive.
-I'm not saying that forgiveness in this case means a restoration of the previous relationship. Some situations involve threat to life, and we aren't called to that.
-I'm not saying the rapist shouldn't still be punished and take the consequences.

If the apology is genuine, the offending party will show it. I can't list all of them out here, but some characteristics are things like:

-admitting to all hurtful acts known
-accepts responsibility for the act, rather than blame-shifting or excusing
-admits the acts caused damage and hurt
-is willing to hear descriptions of the damage caused for as long as is necessary
-sympathizes with the pain of the victim without redirecting focus onto himself
-is willing to make amends/restitution as appropriate
-is willing to accept the damage to the relationship may be irreparable
-is willing to accept that they may not be allowed to participate in the healing process
-is willing to do whatever is necessary to rebuild trust
-makes the effort to change and turn from the sin
-submits to appropriate discipline/punishment
-is willing to wait an indefinite amount of time for the victim to forgive, according to the victim's timing
-remains repentant and humble even when he doesn't get the immediate response desired (forgiveness, etc)

A few of those shouldn't apply to rape in particular; for example, rebuilding trust after a rape is, as far as I'm concerned, a no-go.

2. If the apology isn't genuine, similarly, it will be apparent.

-apology is accompanied by denial
-apology is accompanied by arrogant attitude
-apology is followed by more of the same harmful behavior
-denies responsibility
-minimizes the seriousness of the acts
-attempts to blame-shift
-does not want to hear the pain of the victim
-makes no effort at restitution/amends
-gets annoyed when forgiveness is not granted immediately

I'll stop there, but it's all basically the opposite of the list above it.

Basically, if the apology seems genuine, we need to forgive. God can see hearts, so He knows genuine forgiveness or not at the moment of. But for us humans, we can't see into hearts, and so forgiveness doesn't mean immediate trust. The forgiveness remains if the trust is kept. If the trust is broken (by some of the characteristics listed above, say), then the forgiveness can be rescinded, as far as I'm concerned, because it shows the repentance wasn't genuine. All of these subtle details are going to be specific to each person, each action, each case, etc..... so I'm speaking as specifically as I can while still being general and knowing that a thousand "what ifs" can sprout from this.

I'm curious, though, why you think God is all-forgiving (as you've said in other threads), but when speaking of this example of injustice, the idea of all-forgiveness seems to make you balk.

Actually this is a great example to illustrate why God isn't all-forgiving. If God is all-forgiving, then the message to the victim of rape is that they don't matter. The victim is then served a further injustice by God simply being all-forgiving in the face of rape.

If we had a judge in a courtroom who had a rapist-murderer brought before him and yet simply forgave him because he's all-forgiving, that would be an unjust, unrighteous judge, and we'd throw him out of the courtroom.

But thankfully that's not God.

Believing He's all-forgiving doesn't make it so. God judges sin. Mine. Yours. Everyone's.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Trapped

I clicked quote and it looks perfectly normal to me. I expected to see weird formatting or code, but it's all normal.

Oh no! Repentance shows up in MULTIPLE BOOKS OF THE BIBLE as a precursor for forgiveness! How terrible of me to point it out!!


Edit to add: pardon the phrase here, but holy crap. On a hunch I opened it in a different browser (chrome versus firefox) and the mess showed up there. I deleted all the stuff, which I have no idea what it was. The code for formatting bold and italics, etc is still there (on firefox it doesn't show) but that should be handle-able. If you need to quote it, it should work now.

I saw all the codes on Firefox.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I saw all the codes on Firefox.

It's part of proprietary MS Word misbehaved code.