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[OBW]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Yes. Seems like a Romans 14:20 thing regarding not stumbling your brother over minor things . . .

Contending over politics is something akin to arguing about who will be first in the kingdom!

BTW - does anybody know what an Asheroth pole actually looked like?

I agree that arguing over politics is a minor thing.

But when we come to worship, bringing anything to which we "pledge allegiance to" other than God is a problem. The church, especially at worship, is of the kingdom of God, not the earthly kingdom in which the particular assembly is located. Giving attribution to that earthly kingdom is problematic. Especially when so many grant it something akin to theocracy status.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by OBW

I agree that arguing over politics is a minor thing.

But when we come to worship, bringing anything to which we "pledge allegiance to" other than God is a problem. The church, especially at worship, is of the kingdom of God, not the earthly kingdom in which the particular assembly is located. Giving attribution to that earthly kingdom is problematic. Especially when so many grant it something akin to theocracy status.

I'm saddened when I see people worship the flag or country. The American Dream has been a very high thing for mankind, in fact, I believe the best form of government, etc. that man has come up with. People get very caught up in it. I love this country, but that's the rub - anything we love besides God can quickly become an idol to us, that can seemingly then do no wrong.

But that's just the flesh being prideful of what it has. It always strikes me a little funny when I see signs that say something like, "I'm proud to be Polish" or "I'm proud to be an American," etc. As if we had any control over where we were born! Scripture asks why we are all proud of something we've been given . . .

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

I'm saddened when I see people worship the flag or country. The American Dream has been a very high thing for mankind, in fact, I believe the best form of government, etc. that man has come up with. People get very caught up in it. I love this country, but that's the rub - anything we love besides God can quickly become an idol to us, that can seemingly then do no wrong.

But that's just the flesh being prideful of what it has. It always strikes me a little funny when I see signs that say something like, "I'm proud to be Polish" or "I'm proud to be an American," etc. As if we had any control over where we were born! Scripture asks why we are all proud of something we've been given . . .

The Lord never said it was wrong not to have other loves, only that He would be our first. Your comment seems extreme. I heard it too in the LC. Brothers could not even love their wives and kids fearing they could become an idol. That's crazy. Without healthy loves in our life, we become vulnerable to loving "the ministry" and only "the ministry."

Worshiping idols is not the same as love in my book. I heard this nonsense for years, i.e. "Anything we love can be an idol." I'm not buying it any more. I don't see that in the scripture.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Ohio

The Lord never said it was wrong not to have other loves, only that He would be our first. Your comment seems extreme. I heard it too in the LC. Brothers could not even love their wives and kids fearing they could become an idol. That's crazy. Without healthy loves in our life, we become vulnerable to loving "the ministry" and only "the ministry."

Worshiping idols is not the same as love in my book. I heard this nonsense for years, i.e. "Anything we love can be an idol." I'm not buying it any more. I don't see that in the scripture.

My response to the bolded above - yes, that is extreme!

"Can be an idol" is the key - you certainly don't have an idol if you don't love it, is my thought. I said "I love my country" and I do. Do you think this can be taken too far?

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

My response to the bolded above - yes, that is extreme!

"Can be an idol" is the key - you certainly don't have an idol if you don't love it, is my thought. I said "I love my country" and I do. Do you think this can be taken too far?

Loyalty to a sports team is an idol ... even more so loyalty to a political party. It depends on how far you take it.

I've attended churches here were the preacher has to cut it short for a game. And going to lunch with them finds all they talk about is sports. Nothing about Jesus.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

I've attended churches here were the preacher has to cut it short for a game. And going to lunch with them finds all they talk about is sports. Nothing about Jesus.

Probably because you were there ... armed with questions.

[HERn]

In our One Another Groups (home meetings) at my community church we have been strongly urged not to talk politics so that we don't get derailed into arguments. I think its a good idea. I will discuss politics when one on one or with a couple of brothers during interpersonal interactions. For the most part we are a center-right church, but some of the brothers place conservative politics on the same level as orthodox theology and can become quite vocal taking over conversations. I'm sure the early church had similar tensions with the Herodians, Zealots, Pharasees, and Essenes all breathing the same air in close proximity!

[OBW]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

I said "I love my country" and I do. Do you think this can be taken too far?

I agree with you on both parts. I love my country. It is far from perfect, but hard to beat.

But can it be taken too far? I'm sure it can. When we start singing to the country as part of our worship of God, then something is surely gone wrong in our priorities in love. I think that within the context of worship, it is best to think of it like what Jesus said about love of money v love of God. It needs to be one or the other. And within worship, it needs to be love for God and no room for love of country.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by OBW

I agree with you on both parts. I love my country. It is far from perfect, but hard to beat.

But can it be taken too far? I'm sure it can. When we start singing to the country as part of our worship of God, then something is surely gone wrong in our priorities in love. I think that within the context of worship, it is best to think of it like what Jesus said about love of money v love of God. It needs to be one or the other. And within worship, it needs to be love for God and no room for love of country.

Perhaps we should then be regularly burning our flag just to prove that we admit that our country is "far from perfect," that the white man is truly evil, and that we Americans are "really free." Now I get it!

And how dare those misguided evangelicals vote their freedoms! Should they even be allowed to vote? Not for them sinful candidates! They can only vote for these sanctimonious virtue-signalers, who prove themselves worthy. Yeah Beto!

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Perhaps we should then be regularly burning our flag just to prove that we admit that our country is "far from perfect," that the white man is truly evil, and that we Americans are "really free." Now I get it!

And how dare those misguided evangelicals vote their freedoms! Should they even be allowed to vote? Not for them sinful candidates! They can only vote for these sanctimonious virtue-signalers, who prove themselves worthy. Yeah Beto!

Silly talk. You are no doubt trying to do what Rush used to do (and maybe he still does): demonstrate absurdity by being absurd.

[OBW]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Perhaps we should then be regularly burning our flag just to prove that we admit that our country is "far from perfect," that the white man is truly evil, and that we Americans are "really free." Now I get it!

And how dare those misguided evangelicals vote their freedoms! Should they even be allowed to vote? Not for them sinful candidates! They can only vote for these sanctimonious virtue-signalers, who prove themselves worthy. Yeah Beto!

Did you intentionally misunderstand my post? You are surely talking about something entirely different than what you quoted from me. Sort of like a politician who is asked a question on one thing, says "I'm glad you asked that," then spends the whole time talking about something else.

I was not talking about what kind of politics I do or don't like. It wouldn't matter if we all agreed on politics and they were as pure as the driven snow. What I said would still stand. In the context of our time of worship, other than praying for wisdom for our leaders, the country is not part of worship. Nor is its flag. My point is not to denigrate the flag, or the country, or any of its citizens, but to narrow the focus of worship to the kingdom of God. And revering secular days (4th of July, mother's day, etc.), singing about our country, and placing a flag in a prominent place within the worship environment are all things foreign to the kingdom of God and our worship of Him. For that period of time they should not be present.

This has absolutely nothing to do with burning the flag or protesting against any political ideology. Don't get so caught up in your zeal for things political that you can't read what is said before going off on your own private tirade.

The worst thing is that even in other posts where I was talking about politics, I never said anything even close to the things you mocked. On this topic, you are getting to be a bit of a jerk.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by OBW

I agree that arguing over politics is a minor thing.

But when we come to worship, bringing anything to which we "pledge allegiance to" other than God is a problem. The church, especially at worship, is of the kingdom of God, not the earthly kingdom in which the particular assembly is located. Giving attribution to that earthly kingdom is problematic. Especially when so many grant it something akin to theocracy status.

Not buying this. All jobs require a pledge of allegiance. The LC was great at condemning brothers for thei commitment to their employer. TC would regularly go on rants about how every company was "bankrupt to be." But then he would challenge us to be successful like the gentiles, by extolling the successful ones.

Many Christians support and pray for the nation of Israel. And that is wrong too? Sounds to me too heavenly minded and no earthly good. We already have enough people bad-mouthing our country as evil, than for you to expect this from Christians too.

[OBW]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Not buying this. All jobs require a pledge of allegiance. The LC was great at condemning brothers for thei commitment to their employer. TC would regularly go on rants about how every company was "bankrupt to be." But then he would challenge us to be successful like the gentiles, by extolling the successful ones.

Many Christians support and pray for the nation of Israel. And that is wrong too? Sounds to me too heavenly minded and no earthly good. We already have enough people bad-mouthing our country as evil, then for you to expect this from Christians too.

You are completely missing my point. I am not saying that we should not pledge allegiance to our country. I did not call our country evil. I merely stated (indirectly) that it is part of the kingdom of the world within which we are left to dwell. But as citizens of another kingdom (God's kingdom), there is a time and place to set aside our connection with anything of this world and worship the King of kings. And he doesn't like sharing focus with the kingdoms of this world.

I am saying that once we are within the corporate act of worship, all those other attachments should be left outside. We render to Caesar what is Caesar's. But nothing within our time of worship is (or should be) Caesar's.

I in no way said anything against America, or Israel, or your job (or mine). I said that once we come together to worship God corporately, we should leave all those things outside. Nothing more.

Leave the flag outside. Pledge to it elsewhere. Sing to it elsewhere. Just not within the worship of God.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by OBW

Leave the flag outside. Pledge to it elsewhere. Sing to it elsewhere. Just not within the worship of God.

Considering what Matthew(?) has Jesus saying on the mount, concerning taking oaths : not to 'heaven, earth, or even Jerusalem,' I don't know if we should take our patriotism that far. The JW's take it literally, so they won't salute the flag.

Like most of us, I grew up saying the pledge of allegiance, hand on heart. But I grew up and found it silly. I was born on the earth, not Mars, so why pledge to just a small section of geography? I resented that I was made to do it.

Now I don't. But at least I can quote Jesus.

[OBW]

Originally Posted by awareness

Considering what Matthew(?) has Jesus saying on the mount, concerning taking oaths : not to 'heaven, earth, or even Jerusalem,' I don't know if we should take our patriotism that far. The JW's take it literally, so they won't salute the flag.

Like most of us, I grew up saying the pledge of allegiance, hand on heart. But I grew up and found it silly. I was born on the earth, not Mars, so why pledge to just a small section of geography? I resented that I was made to do it.

Now I don't. But at least I can quote Jesus.

While we typically compel the young to recite the pledge at least periodically (it was not daily in my youth, but at times), we require it somewhat as part of the oath an alien must recite to become a citizen. As long as we consider it as a lesser love, devotion, etc., to that of Christ, it is not a problem.

On a related issue — the US invovlement in various military conflicts around the world — some go so far as to be pacifist due to their understanding of the command not to kill. Others follow a "just war" theory. And others have no particular thought on the matter as long as the country is involved. I probably tend toward the latter, but with reservations, especially when the "war" is not strongly supported and declared by Congress rather than just the Administration. And remote financial interests are hard to use as justification, though there are arguably other justifications in the recent undertakings.

But I do think that the status of the US as the global police force is a bit beyond what our role should be. NATO and the UN are not our rubber stamps for what we want. If they don't want to get involved in every conflict, we should listen, not just force ourselves. We need a balance between global involvement and isolationism and I think we are too far to the global involvement side at the present.

[Sons to Glory!]

Hard to figure out how it should all look exactly in this age! Someone recently suggested to me that we perhaps should vote people in that are globalists, so as to usher in the one world thing, and then this would facilitate Christ's 2nd coming. Who knows - hard to tell without His leading in such matters!

But our trust is in Him and when the King returns He will set it all straight! In the mean time, the swamp is a funky and confusing place . . .

[Sons to Glory!]

I read something yesterday that my (very conservative) dad sent it to me, about how impeaching Trump would be a good thing. It talked about how when formal impeachment proceedings occur, Trump's team would then have wide latitude to subpoena anybody they want. So, as the piece went, they could bring to light all the rumors about supposed underhanded dealings against Trump.

As most seem to agree, it went on to reiterate that the Republican Senate would never vote to remove Trump. But all this shadowy stuff from the left would have been brought into the light, which potentially could be very damaging to democrats - and would thereby insure Trump's reelection.

Politic is like an evil chess game . . .