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[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by OBW

I agree that arguing over politics is a minor thing.

But when we come to worship, bringing anything to which we "pledge allegiance to" other than God is a problem. The church, especially at worship, is of the kingdom of God, not the earthly kingdom in which the particular assembly is located. Giving attribution to that earthly kingdom is problematic. Especially when so many grant it something akin to theocracy status.

I'm saddened when I see people worship the flag or country. The American Dream has been a very high thing for mankind, in fact, I believe the best form of government, etc. that man has come up with. People get very caught up in it. I love this country, but that's the rub - anything we love besides God can quickly become an idol to us, that can seemingly then do no wrong.

But that's just the flesh being prideful of what it has. It always strikes me a little funny when I see signs that say something like, "I'm proud to be Polish" or "I'm proud to be an American," etc. As if we had any control over where we were born! Scripture asks why we are all proud of something we've been given . . .

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

I'm saddened when I see people worship the flag or country. The American Dream has been a very high thing for mankind, in fact, I believe the best form of government, etc. that man has come up with. People get very caught up in it. I love this country, but that's the rub - anything we love besides God can quickly become an idol to us, that can seemingly then do no wrong.

But that's just the flesh being prideful of what it has. It always strikes me a little funny when I see signs that say something like, "I'm proud to be Polish" or "I'm proud to be an American," etc. As if we had any control over where we were born! Scripture asks why we are all proud of something we've been given . . .

The Lord never said it was wrong not to have other loves, only that He would be our first. Your comment seems extreme. I heard it too in the LC. Brothers could not even love their wives and kids fearing they could become an idol. That's crazy. Without healthy loves in our life, we become vulnerable to loving "the ministry" and only "the ministry."

Worshiping idols is not the same as love in my book. I heard this nonsense for years, i.e. "Anything we love can be an idol." I'm not buying it any more. I don't see that in the scripture.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Ohio

The Lord never said it was wrong not to have other loves, only that He would be our first. Your comment seems extreme. I heard it too in the LC. Brothers could not even love their wives and kids fearing they could become an idol. That's crazy. Without healthy loves in our life, we become vulnerable to loving "the ministry" and only "the ministry."

Worshiping idols is not the same as love in my book. I heard this nonsense for years, i.e. "Anything we love can be an idol." I'm not buying it any more. I don't see that in the scripture.

My response to the bolded above - yes, that is extreme!

"Can be an idol" is the key - you certainly don't have an idol if you don't love it, is my thought. I said "I love my country" and I do. Do you think this can be taken too far?

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

My response to the bolded above - yes, that is extreme!

"Can be an idol" is the key - you certainly don't have an idol if you don't love it, is my thought. I said "I love my country" and I do. Do you think this can be taken too far?

Loyalty to a sports team is an idol ... even more so loyalty to a political party. It depends on how far you take it.

I've attended churches here were the preacher has to cut it short for a game. And going to lunch with them finds all they talk about is sports. Nothing about Jesus.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

I've attended churches here were the preacher has to cut it short for a game. And going to lunch with them finds all they talk about is sports. Nothing about Jesus.

Probably because you were there ... armed with questions.

[HERn]

In our One Another Groups (home meetings) at my community church we have been strongly urged not to talk politics so that we don't get derailed into arguments. I think its a good idea. I will discuss politics when one on one or with a couple of brothers during interpersonal interactions. For the most part we are a center-right church, but some of the brothers place conservative politics on the same level as orthodox theology and can become quite vocal taking over conversations. I'm sure the early church had similar tensions with the Herodians, Zealots, Pharasees, and Essenes all breathing the same air in close proximity!

[awareness]

Originally Posted by HERn

In our One Another Groups (home meetings) at my community church we have been strongly urged not to talk politics so that we don't get derailed into arguments. I think its a good idea. I will discuss politics when one on one or with a couple of brothers during interpersonal interactions. For the most part we are a center-right church, but some of the brothers place conservative politics on the same level as orthodox theology and can become quite vocal taking over conversations. I'm sure the early church had similar tensions with the Herodians, Zealots, Pharasees, and Essenes all breathing the same air in close proximity!

My sister is a long time member of a nearby Southern Baptist church. But she doesn't attend. Why? Because she was told she had to be a republican and had to wear dresses. She won't do either. She don't own a dress, and she's a Yellow-Dog Democrat.

I shy away from discussing politics with believers. I'd rather talk Bible stuff. But me and my JW friend get into it. He hates Trump. We also get into Bible stuff; they have their own translation. I have given him, and the big guns he brings to my door, an unbelievable hard time, many, many times ; epic indisputable bring downs. He keeps coming back. I like him. He gives me cut up wood for my winter heat. He's in my phone. We talk from time to time. He has no problem talking politics. And I've learned a bunch about JW's.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by HERn

some of the brothers place conservative politics on the same level as orthodox theology and can become quite vocal taking over conversations.

Yes, and I was there once! As I've shared, it's when Obama got elected the 2nd time that I got exposed how much I was putting my trust in some man-made system! The Lord is far above all this man-made stuff (yet He still does care for our stuff). Sure, the country had a great foundation with men who acknowledged God and His role in human affairs. But just as the Jews doggedly held onto a system given by God years ago above all else, the book of Hebrews exhorts them that they should move on to the reality in Christ and not go back to the shadow.

I have strong conservative/libertarian leanings, but in the end, having the best government system ever devised doesn't bring life to it's participants! We need to major on the major and minor in the minors.

[OBW]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

I said "I love my country" and I do. Do you think this can be taken too far?

I agree with you on both parts. I love my country. It is far from perfect, but hard to beat.

But can it be taken too far? I'm sure it can. When we start singing to the country as part of our worship of God, then something is surely gone wrong in our priorities in love. I think that within the context of worship, it is best to think of it like what Jesus said about love of money v love of God. It needs to be one or the other. And within worship, it needs to be love for God and no room for love of country.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by OBW

I agree with you on both parts. I love my country. It is far from perfect, but hard to beat.

But can it be taken too far? I'm sure it can. When we start singing to the country as part of our worship of God, then something is surely gone wrong in our priorities in love. I think that within the context of worship, it is best to think of it like what Jesus said about love of money v love of God. It needs to be one or the other. And within worship, it needs to be love for God and no room for love of country.

Perhaps we should then be regularly burning our flag just to prove that we admit that our country is "far from perfect," that the white man is truly evil, and that we Americans are "really free." Now I get it!

And how dare those misguided evangelicals vote their freedoms! Should they even be allowed to vote? Not for them sinful candidates! They can only vote for these sanctimonious virtue-signalers, who prove themselves worthy. Yeah Beto!

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Perhaps we should then be regularly burning our flag just to prove that we admit that our country is "far from perfect," that the white man is truly evil, and that we Americans are "really free." Now I get it!

And how dare those misguided evangelicals vote their freedoms! Should they even be allowed to vote? Not for them sinful candidates! They can only vote for these sanctimonious virtue-signalers, who prove themselves worthy. Yeah Beto!

Silly talk. You are no doubt trying to do what Rush used to do (and maybe he still does): demonstrate absurdity by being absurd.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Silly talk. You are no doubt trying to do what Rush used to do (and maybe he still does): demonstrate absurdity by being absurd.

Not silly talk. Just being honest with the absurdity I get hit with.

[OBW]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Perhaps we should then be regularly burning our flag just to prove that we admit that our country is "far from perfect," that the white man is truly evil, and that we Americans are "really free." Now I get it!

And how dare those misguided evangelicals vote their freedoms! Should they even be allowed to vote? Not for them sinful candidates! They can only vote for these sanctimonious virtue-signalers, who prove themselves worthy. Yeah Beto!

Did you intentionally misunderstand my post? You are surely talking about something entirely different than what you quoted from me. Sort of like a politician who is asked a question on one thing, says "I'm glad you asked that," then spends the whole time talking about something else.

I was not talking about what kind of politics I do or don't like. It wouldn't matter if we all agreed on politics and they were as pure as the driven snow. What I said would still stand. In the context of our time of worship, other than praying for wisdom for our leaders, the country is not part of worship. Nor is its flag. My point is not to denigrate the flag, or the country, or any of its citizens, but to narrow the focus of worship to the kingdom of God. And revering secular days (4th of July, mother's day, etc.), singing about our country, and placing a flag in a prominent place within the worship environment are all things foreign to the kingdom of God and our worship of Him. For that period of time they should not be present.

This has absolutely nothing to do with burning the flag or protesting against any political ideology. Don't get so caught up in your zeal for things political that you can't read what is said before going off on your own private tirade.

The worst thing is that even in other posts where I was talking about politics, I never said anything even close to the things you mocked. On this topic, you are getting to be a bit of a jerk.

[Sons to Glory!]

Is on the political thread where we take the "kid gloves" off with each other and let our "real selves" come through (aka let the flesh have free rein)?