1,000 Years of Outer Darkness

[Jo S]

Originally Posted by byHismercy

So I now wonder this, apostasia is to renounce the truth.....if the antichrist knew the truth of Christ, but is working against Gods will in the world, for all men to come to the saving knowledge of Christ, couldn't the apostasy in Thess. be referring to the antichrists' own apostasy?

I see. Well, my short answer would be this; In 2 Thess 2:3 the apostasy is alluding to a future event that has not yet come and since Satan has long apostatized, or rejected the truth, it's couldn't be referring to him.

If you go on further to verses 2 Thess 2:10-12, it's referring not to a single person but plural "they" referring to a group of people.

Originally Posted by byHismercy

And I choose now to reject EVERYTHING LC. If I can identify it!

Very good!

[byHismercy]

Originally Posted by Jo S

I see. Well, my short answer would be this; In 2 Thess 2:3 the apostasy is alluding to a future event that has not yet come and since Satan has long apostatized, or rejected the truth, it's couldn't be referring to him.

If you go on further to verses 2 Thess 2:10-12, it's referring not to a single person but plural "they" referring to a group of people.



Very good!

Jo, I see the plural group you referenced. I read them as unbelievers because of the way Paul described them. They are 'them that perish', they received not the love of the truth, God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie, they all might be damned who believe not the truth, they had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Then immediately following this description of 'them', Paul contrasts with his thankfulness for the saints who are brethren beloved of the Lord, chosen of God to salvation, through sanctification of the spirit and belief of the truth.

But I think I see what you are saying, that the plural them, the damned group, you see as once knowing the truth and having fallen away because of the translation of apostasia? That they must be fallen believers? Am I understanding your position correctly?

[Jo S]

Originally Posted by byHismercy

But I think I see what you are saying, that the plural them, the damned group, you see as once knowing the truth and having fallen away because of the translation of apostasia? That they must be fallen believers? Am I understanding your position correctly?

Yes, you're correct. And I mean believers in the sense of having knowledge of the truth but are unregenerate. When the restrainer (the Holy Spirit) is removed these believers will eventually fall away from the true gospel and into deceitful doctrines taught by demons.(1 Tim 4:1).

An example of this would be what Paul alludes to here in 2 Thess 2:9-10;

"The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with how Satan works. He will use all sorts of displays of power through signs and wonders that serve the lie, 10 and all the ways that wickedness deceives those who are perishing."

Christ first talked about this in Matthew 7:22;

"Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?"

So here is an example that shows that in the end-times there will be professing Christians who prophesy and even preform miracles in Jesus's name yet are cast away from his presence not ever actually having known the truth.

It's scary to think that in the last days there will be individuals outwardly professing Christ and preforming miracles yet they won't be empowered by the Holy Spirit but by Satan.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Jo S

Yes, you're correct. And I mean believers in the sense of having knowledge of the truth but are unregenerate. When the restrainer (the Holy Spirit) is removed these believers will eventually fall away from the true gospel and into deceitful doctrines taught by demons.(1 Tim 4:1).

You seem to think that this "falling away" will only occur in the future, at some definite point.

I agree some of this will occur. The coming "mark of the beast" will be a definite turning point for the people of God. It will be a test many will fail.

But the verse above mentions "doctrines of demons." One example given is "forbidding to marry." (I Tim 4.3) Rome has long forbidden their priests to marry, with much corruption resulting (e.g. pedophilia). Has not this part of the "falling away" been going on for centuries?

[Jo S]

Originally Posted by Ohio

You seem to think that this "falling away" will only occur in the future, at some definite point.

I agree some of this will occur. The coming "mark of the beast" will be a definite turning point for the people of God. It will be a test many will fail.

But the verse above mentions "doctrines of demons." One example given is "forbidding to marry." (I Tim 4.3) Rome has long forbidden their priests to marry, with much corruption resulting (e.g. pedophilia). Has not this part of the "falling away" been going on for centuries?

Yes, that's what scripture points to; a definitive point in time when the Holy Spirit will be removed and Satan is cast down to earth. At that point the antichrist will come on the public stage.

I understand that Satan and his demons have been at work since creation but Satan still has access between the earth and the spiritual realm. The time will come when he'll be cast out of heaven and forced to make home in a person, which is the man of lawlessness.

It's not going to be a pretty time and masses of professing Christians will fall away. The seeds of false doctrines are already being planted in the hearts and minds of men. Make sure you do all that you can to stand firm in the faith. Focus on the simplicity of Christ and his gospel and turn away from the deep hidden esoteric knowledge of Satan.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Jo S

Yes, that's what scripture points to; a definitive point in time when the Holy Spirit will be removed and Satan is cast down to earth. At that point the antichrist will come on the public stage.

Many Christians today are convinced that they will be raptured PRIOR to the tribulation or time of testing called the "falling away." For obvious reasons, most ministers avoid this topic. Times are coming that will obviously shock us all.

To his credit, Lee did go thru the N.T. and taught on nearly every verse. Back in the early days, his teachings were more about the Bible and less about his pet projects.

Lee actually had a good number of accurate teachings on eschatology, which he passed on from Govett and Panton. They definitely were pioneers in the field. Lee did tackle many troublesome verses. That's not to say I endorse everything, and frankly there is much I don't know. The GLA LC's also had many learned brothers which were a tremendous benefit over the years.

[Jo S]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Many Christians today are convinced that they will be raptured PRIOR to the tribulation or time of testing called the "falling away."

What do you believe?

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Many Christians today are convinced that they will be raptured PRIOR to the tribulation or time of testing called the "falling away." For obvious reasons, most ministers avoid this topic. Times are coming that will obviously shock us all.

To his credit, Lee did go thru the N.T. and taught on nearly every verse. Back in the early days, his teachings were more about the Bible and less about his pet projects.

Lee actually had a good number of accurate teachings on eschatology, which he passed on from Govett and Panton. They definitely were pioneers in the field. Lee did tackle many troublesome verses. That's not to say I endorse everything, and frankly there is much I don't know. The GLA LC's also had many learned brothers which were a tremendous benefit over the years.

Thanks for saying that, Ohio! I still believe the multiple rapture concept and certainly see scriptural basis for it - the idea of fruit ripening and being ready for harvest at different times. And you are right, WL got most of that from others. I used to be real dogmatic about this and certain other teachings (like an old earth), but these days hold these ideas much more loosely.

It is interesting to go back and forth about such things with others, but ultimately it's a non-essential. I liked what a brother said when we went through Revelation and the Lord's coming last year, "The main point of all this is BE READY!!"

[Jo S]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Many Christians today are convinced that they will be raptured PRIOR to the tribulation or time of testing called the "falling away." For obvious reasons, most ministers avoid this topic. Times are coming that will obviously shock us all.

Here you equated the "time of testing" to the "falling away".

The word "testing" infers the potential to either pass or fall.

Scripture says that the "apostasia" will occur when the restrainer or the Holy Shirt is taken away.

My question would be this; What would the purpose of a testing be if there was no hope of salvation (the Holy Spirit)?

It seems that this type of testing would be sadistic in nature and of course not in line with God's character.

Those sealed by God are not appointed to His wrath but there are no promises of anyone escaping tribulation.

[Raptor]

"unless the apostasy comes first and the man of lawlessness is revealed". Why is apostasy so closely coupled with the man of lawlessness in this verse?

MAYBE MAYBE MAYBE MAYBE MAYBE MAYBE

TLDR: the apostasy may be a general atmosphere of rebellion in the whole world, but specifically the ultimate rebellion, that is Antichrist stopping the sacrifices, setting up his image in the temple, and making himself God.

The more I look at all the related verses (Matt, 2 Tim, 2 Thess, Rev, Dan) it seems that there is/will be a universal trend and atmosphere of rebellion and lawlessness that will culminate in Antichrist. Just like a tidal wave, reaching its peak trying to deceive and carry away anyone, either Nations, Christians or Jews. But since the verse and section in 2 Thess. is about the apostasy and Antichrist, it might be good to try to understand "the apostasy" by seeing first the world situation and actions of the Antichrist right before he is revealed as a man of lawlessness, when he is "still good". He is probably going to be an outstanding politician and economist, accomplishing unprecedented things, very charismatic, garnering much political and military support and increasing in power and influence in the whole world, culminating as the leader of the restored Roman Empire. Eventually he brokers the 7 year peace treaty that allows Israel to resume the sacrifices and offerings in the rebuilt temple. That is probably the greatest political accomplishment of the modern age. There will have to be a huge world-wide support behind him to do this and one that had been going on for several years. Just the fact the the temple is rebuilt, indicates a nations-wide, long term support for Israel over several years. He and the whole system behind him will be in favor of Israel, they will be "Zionists", in favor of the Jews, Israel, Jerusalem, the temple, and then even the sacrifices.

Then suddenly he breaks the treaty 3.5 years into it, stops the sacrifices and will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God. That is the culmination of rebellion, a great apostasy, a great falling away. Not only by him and for him, but he drags all the world with him into that rebellion, all those people, countries and kings now rebel with him too. There is probably no greater old covenant sin against God as this, to proclaim to be God, force people to worship you or die, and place an idol of yourself in the temple of God. This may be "the apostasy comes first" and then right after this he is revealed as the beast, the man of lawlessness.

Daniel 9:27 And he will confirm a covenant with many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of the temple will come the abomination that causes desolation, until the decreed destruction is poured out upon him.

"And he will confirm a covenant with many for one week" = still good.

"...end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of the temple will come the abomination that causes desolation" (Antichrist idol) = apostasy

"until the decreed destruction is poured out upon him" = man of lawlessness

[byHismercy]

Hi saints,

I have not further studied Timothy or Revelation, but when I went to bed the other night, this is the word the Lord gave me.

John 5:24
Verily, verily, I say to you, He that hears My word, and believes on Him that sent Me, has everlasting life, and SHALL NOT COME INTO CONDEMNATION; but is passed from death to life.

I put a lot of stock and faith into this when I, seeking the answer to this question, flip open the bible and this is the first thing He shows me.

(I'm not sure why the first he is capitalized in this verse in my translation, it's a KJVER. It seems like a typo. I would think the Lord is speaking about the believers, and should not be capitalized. In this passage the Lord Jesus was addressing Jews who were seeking to slay Him.)

So if I could, I would love to direct some of this conversation back to my original question regarding 1,000 years outer darkness. Where specifically in scripture was this doctrine taken from? Or was it cobbled together from many places? This doctrine of a place of punishment for believers, I mean. When I search with Google I come up empty, on this topic.

I remember one sister told me that when we stand before the Lord, there will be judgment of our faith and works and divers rewards bestowed. This came from one who then turned all the things she had taught me and proved she didn't actually believe them with the shunning. So I don't think I can trust anything she shared, anymore.

[byHismercy]

Originally Posted by Jo S

Yes, you're correct. And I mean believers in the sense of having knowledge of the truth but are unregenerate. When the restrainer (the Holy Spirit) is removed these believers will eventually fall away from the true gospel and into deceitful doctrines taught by demons.(1 Tim 4:1).


It's scary to think that in the last days there will be individuals outwardly professing Christ and preforming miracles yet they won't be empowered by the Holy Spirit but by Satan.

The last days and now. Or maybe these are the last days. Because those you just described is really what I experienced in the LC. They came to me in the name of my Jesus, but practiced hiding the truth, and covering over of the sinful reality, deceiving me in all manner of things and ways. They even claimed shunning us was following the Holy Spirit. But the Lord did anything but shun me afterwards, and I have come to believe that they are being led by a false spirit, not the Spirit of Christ.

[Jo S]

Originally Posted by byHismercy

The last days and now. Or maybe these are the last days. Because those you just described is really what I experienced in the LC. They came to me in the name of my Jesus, but practiced hiding the truth, and covering over of the sinful reality, deceiving me in all manner of things and ways. They even claimed shunning us was following the Holy Spirit. But the Lord did anything but shun me afterwards, and I have come to believe that they are being led by a false spirit, not the Spirit of Christ.

You're absolutely correct, byHismercy.

I believe ZNP said it. God uses false prophets, at least in the case of His children, for good.

"Now when they fall, they will be granted a little help, but many will join them insincerely. Some of the wise will fall, so that they may be refined, purified, and made spotless until the time of the end, for it will still come at the appointed time." -Daniel 11:34-35

I know it's been difficult coping, but the Lord used your experience of falling into the Local Churches to purify you and prepare you for what's ahead. Take comfort in knowing that.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by byHismercy

But I think I see what you are saying, that the plural them, the damned group, you see as once knowing the truth and having fallen away because of the translation of apostasia? That they must be fallen believers? Am I understanding your position correctly?

Would not evolution be part of an apostasia? At the heart of evolution is the denial of God. If nature teaches us of God (Romans 1.18-23), then all those who believe evolution, denying the existence of God, are part of the "falling away."