1,000 Years of Outer Darkness

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Jo S

Yes, you're correct. And I mean believers in the sense of having knowledge of the truth but are unregenerate. When the restrainer (the Holy Spirit) is removed these believers will eventually fall away from the true gospel and into deceitful doctrines taught by demons.(1 Tim 4:1).

You seem to think that this "falling away" will only occur in the future, at some definite point.

I agree some of this will occur. The coming "mark of the beast" will be a definite turning point for the people of God. It will be a test many will fail.

But the verse above mentions "doctrines of demons." One example given is "forbidding to marry." (I Tim 4.3) Rome has long forbidden their priests to marry, with much corruption resulting (e.g. pedophilia). Has not this part of the "falling away" been going on for centuries?

[Jo S]

Originally Posted by Ohio

You seem to think that this "falling away" will only occur in the future, at some definite point.

I agree some of this will occur. The coming "mark of the beast" will be a definite turning point for the people of God. It will be a test many will fail.

But the verse above mentions "doctrines of demons." One example given is "forbidding to marry." (I Tim 4.3) Rome has long forbidden their priests to marry, with much corruption resulting (e.g. pedophilia). Has not this part of the "falling away" been going on for centuries?

Yes, that's what scripture points to; a definitive point in time when the Holy Spirit will be removed and Satan is cast down to earth. At that point the antichrist will come on the public stage.

I understand that Satan and his demons have been at work since creation but Satan still has access between the earth and the spiritual realm. The time will come when he'll be cast out of heaven and forced to make home in a person, which is the man of lawlessness.

It's not going to be a pretty time and masses of professing Christians will fall away. The seeds of false doctrines are already being planted in the hearts and minds of men. Make sure you do all that you can to stand firm in the faith. Focus on the simplicity of Christ and his gospel and turn away from the deep hidden esoteric knowledge of Satan.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Jo S

Yes, that's what scripture points to; a definitive point in time when the Holy Spirit will be removed and Satan is cast down to earth. At that point the antichrist will come on the public stage.

Many Christians today are convinced that they will be raptured PRIOR to the tribulation or time of testing called the "falling away." For obvious reasons, most ministers avoid this topic. Times are coming that will obviously shock us all.

To his credit, Lee did go thru the N.T. and taught on nearly every verse. Back in the early days, his teachings were more about the Bible and less about his pet projects.

Lee actually had a good number of accurate teachings on eschatology, which he passed on from Govett and Panton. They definitely were pioneers in the field. Lee did tackle many troublesome verses. That's not to say I endorse everything, and frankly there is much I don't know. The GLA LC's also had many learned brothers which were a tremendous benefit over the years.

[Jo S]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Many Christians today are convinced that they will be raptured PRIOR to the tribulation or time of testing called the "falling away."

What do you believe?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Many Christians today are convinced that they will be raptured PRIOR to the tribulation or time of testing called the "falling away."

Originally Posted by Jo S

What do you believe?

Some will be taken away before the hour of trial. Lots of verses here.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Many Christians today are convinced that they will be raptured PRIOR to the tribulation or time of testing called the "falling away." For obvious reasons, most ministers avoid this topic. Times are coming that will obviously shock us all.

To his credit, Lee did go thru the N.T. and taught on nearly every verse. Back in the early days, his teachings were more about the Bible and less about his pet projects.

Lee actually had a good number of accurate teachings on eschatology, which he passed on from Govett and Panton. They definitely were pioneers in the field. Lee did tackle many troublesome verses. That's not to say I endorse everything, and frankly there is much I don't know. The GLA LC's also had many learned brothers which were a tremendous benefit over the years.

Thanks for saying that, Ohio! I still believe the multiple rapture concept and certainly see scriptural basis for it - the idea of fruit ripening and being ready for harvest at different times. And you are right, WL got most of that from others. I used to be real dogmatic about this and certain other teachings (like an old earth), but these days hold these ideas much more loosely.

It is interesting to go back and forth about such things with others, but ultimately it's a non-essential. I liked what a brother said when we went through Revelation and the Lord's coming last year, "The main point of all this is BE READY!!"

[Jo S]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Many Christians today are convinced that they will be raptured PRIOR to the tribulation or time of testing called the "falling away." For obvious reasons, most ministers avoid this topic. Times are coming that will obviously shock us all.

Here you equated the "time of testing" to the "falling away".

The word "testing" infers the potential to either pass or fall.

Scripture says that the "apostasia" will occur when the restrainer or the Holy Shirt is taken away.

My question would be this; What would the purpose of a testing be if there was no hope of salvation (the Holy Spirit)?

It seems that this type of testing would be sadistic in nature and of course not in line with God's character.

Those sealed by God are not appointed to His wrath but there are no promises of anyone escaping tribulation.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Jo S

Here you equated the "time of testing" to the "falling away".

The word "testing" infers the potential to either pass or fall.

Scripture says that the "apostasia" will occur when the restrainer or the Holy Shirt is taken away.

My question would be this; What would the purpose of a testing be if there was no hope of salvation (the Holy Spirit)?

It seems that this type of testing would be sadistic in nature and of course not in line with God's character.

Those sealed by God are not appointed to His wrath but there are no promises of anyone escaping tribulation.

How you pass the test (i.e. he who endures to the end shall be saved) determines whether you fall away.

[Raptor]

"unless the apostasy comes first and the man of lawlessness is revealed". Why is apostasy so closely coupled with the man of lawlessness in this verse?

MAYBE MAYBE MAYBE MAYBE MAYBE MAYBE

TLDR: the apostasy may be a general atmosphere of rebellion in the whole world, but specifically the ultimate rebellion, that is Antichrist stopping the sacrifices, setting up his image in the temple, and making himself God.

The more I look at all the related verses (Matt, 2 Tim, 2 Thess, Rev, Dan) it seems that there is/will be a universal trend and atmosphere of rebellion and lawlessness that will culminate in Antichrist. Just like a tidal wave, reaching its peak trying to deceive and carry away anyone, either Nations, Christians or Jews. But since the verse and section in 2 Thess. is about the apostasy and Antichrist, it might be good to try to understand "the apostasy" by seeing first the world situation and actions of the Antichrist right before he is revealed as a man of lawlessness, when he is "still good". He is probably going to be an outstanding politician and economist, accomplishing unprecedented things, very charismatic, garnering much political and military support and increasing in power and influence in the whole world, culminating as the leader of the restored Roman Empire. Eventually he brokers the 7 year peace treaty that allows Israel to resume the sacrifices and offerings in the rebuilt temple. That is probably the greatest political accomplishment of the modern age. There will have to be a huge world-wide support behind him to do this and one that had been going on for several years. Just the fact the the temple is rebuilt, indicates a nations-wide, long term support for Israel over several years. He and the whole system behind him will be in favor of Israel, they will be "Zionists", in favor of the Jews, Israel, Jerusalem, the temple, and then even the sacrifices.

Then suddenly he breaks the treaty 3.5 years into it, stops the sacrifices and will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God. That is the culmination of rebellion, a great apostasy, a great falling away. Not only by him and for him, but he drags all the world with him into that rebellion, all those people, countries and kings now rebel with him too. There is probably no greater old covenant sin against God as this, to proclaim to be God, force people to worship you or die, and place an idol of yourself in the temple of God. This may be "the apostasy comes first" and then right after this he is revealed as the beast, the man of lawlessness.

Daniel 9:27 And he will confirm a covenant with many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of the temple will come the abomination that causes desolation, until the decreed destruction is poured out upon him.

"And he will confirm a covenant with many for one week" = still good.

"...end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of the temple will come the abomination that causes desolation" (Antichrist idol) = apostasy

"until the decreed destruction is poured out upon him" = man of lawlessness

[byHismercy]

Hi saints,

I have not further studied Timothy or Revelation, but when I went to bed the other night, this is the word the Lord gave me.

John 5:24
Verily, verily, I say to you, He that hears My word, and believes on Him that sent Me, has everlasting life, and SHALL NOT COME INTO CONDEMNATION; but is passed from death to life.

I put a lot of stock and faith into this when I, seeking the answer to this question, flip open the bible and this is the first thing He shows me.

(I'm not sure why the first he is capitalized in this verse in my translation, it's a KJVER. It seems like a typo. I would think the Lord is speaking about the believers, and should not be capitalized. In this passage the Lord Jesus was addressing Jews who were seeking to slay Him.)

So if I could, I would love to direct some of this conversation back to my original question regarding 1,000 years outer darkness. Where specifically in scripture was this doctrine taken from? Or was it cobbled together from many places? This doctrine of a place of punishment for believers, I mean. When I search with Google I come up empty, on this topic.

I remember one sister told me that when we stand before the Lord, there will be judgment of our faith and works and divers rewards bestowed. This came from one who then turned all the things she had taught me and proved she didn't actually believe them with the shunning. So I don't think I can trust anything she shared, anymore.

[Cal]

Instead of worrying about the punishment for unfaithfulness, why not just focus on being faithful, and let the Lord figure it out?

[byHismercy]

Originally Posted by Igzy

Instead of worrying about the punishment for unfaithfulness, why not just focus on being faithful, and let the Lord figure it out?

This is just one of many 'suspect' doctrines I received from the LC. Nowadays I question everything that came from that poisonous well. I would like to see the truth regarding all the false things. I am deeply curious about things pertaining to the Lord and His salvation, aren't you, Igzy?? Doctrine is so important! How can I casually stroll into some (new to me) assembly in my local area not understanding fully what they believe, what I believe, and most importantly, what Jesus believes!! I guess that's why. If He gives me questions, I want to find answers, not just shrug, and not think about it. To my familys' detriment that was my attitude before. I am not even sure how many times I thought to myself, `hey, that doesn't match (my limited knowledge of) scripture' while in the LC. And guess what I did? Nada. I was not like the bereans, and I learned that lesson well, I hope.

And Igzy, I will pray for your family situation. My heart goes out to you.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by byHismercy

So if I could, I would love to direct some of this conversation back to my original question regarding 1,000 years outer darkness. Where specifically in scripture was this doctrine taken from? Or was it cobbled together from many places? This doctrine of a place of punishment for believers, I mean.

“We must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad” (v. 2Cor5:10).

I assume that you understand that every Christian must appear before the judgement seat of Christ to be recompensed according to their deeds, whether good or bad.

“If any man’s work which he has built on it [the foundation of Christ] remains, he will receive a reward. If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.” (ICor3:14-15)

I also assume you understand that some will receive loss and their work will be burned up, but they will still be saved ultimately, but as though they went through fire.

“So then each of us will give an account of himself to God.” (Rom 14:12)

I assume this is not the issue.

11And I say unto you, that many shall come from the east and the west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven: 12but the sons of the kingdom shall be cast forth into the outer darkness: there shall be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth. (Matt 8:11-12)

It is very difficult to interpret the sons of the kingdom as unbelievers. If that is what you are doing then you will open up a whole new can of worms.

11But when the king came in to behold the guests, he saw there a man who had not on a wedding-garment: 12and he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding-garment? And he was speechless. 13Then the king said to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and cast him out into the outer darkness; there shall be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth. 14For many are called, but few chosen. (Matt 22:11-13)

It is also very difficult to interpret one who was invited to the marriage of the Lamb and came to the marriage feast as anything other than a believer. Not having a wedding garment does not indicate an unbeliever but rather a believer whose works are not worthy of the Lord.

30And cast ye out the unprofitable servant into the outer darkness: there shall be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth.

Of all the cases the Lord uses this is the most difficult to interpret as being anything but a believer. The person is a servant of the Lord who has received a Gold talent. His issue is that he buried the treasure and was lazy.

[byHismercy]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

[COLOR="Blue"]

11But when the king came in to behold the guests, he saw there a man who had not on a wedding-garment: 12and he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding-garment? And he was speechless. 13Then the king said to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and cast him out into the outer darkness; there shall be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth. 14For many are called, but few chosen. (Matt 22:11-13)

It is also very difficult to interpret one who was invited to the marriage of the Lamb and came to the marriage feast as anything other than a believer. Not having a wedding garment does not indicate an unbeliever but rather a believer whose works are not worthy of the Lord.

30And cast ye out the unprofitable servant into the outer darkness: there shall be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth.

Of all the cases the Lord uses this is the most difficult to interpret as being anything but a believer. The person is a servant of the Lord who has received a Gold talent. His issue is that he buried the treasure and was lazy.

Let me say, I agree completely with all these response posts. I agree with obeying the Lord in all things, and being faithful to Him, and I really appreciate everyone's input. I don't dispute any of your encouraging responses. I was worried I was being misinterpreted which is why I left off this thread. My reason for wondering if there is actually 1,000 years outer darkness for believers was not some reasoning inside where I would like to live in sin and 'get away' with it by showing there is no punishment for Christian's. I want to be obedient to Him in all ways AND simultaneously I don't believe there is any such a punishment for regenerated believers. I think is is a lie from the devil......1,000 years outer darkness. I think it is important to figure these things out, not to give us license to sin, nor live in our own private rebellion against God.

I realize ZNP may not be around for this response to his post, but I wanted to more respond to the interpretation of this passage as I am learning this year about rightly dividing the word and that method gives me fresh insight, and I am interpreting this passage so very differently than ZNP and for that matter completely differently than I would have myself a year ago.


Matthew 22 King James Version (KJV)
22 And Jesus answered and spake unto them again by parables, and said,

2 The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,

3 And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.

4 Again, he sent forth other servants, saying, Tell them which are bidden, Behold, I have prepared my dinner: my oxen and my fatlings are killed, and all things are ready: come unto the marriage.

5 But they made light of it, and went their ways, one to his farm, another to his merchandise:

6 And the remnant took his servants, and entreated them spitefully, and slew them.

7 But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city.

8 Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy.

9 Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage.

10 So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests.

11 And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment:

12 And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.

13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness, there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

15 Then went the Pharisees, and took counsel how they might entangle him in his talk.

16 And they sent out unto him their disciples with the Herodians, saying, Master, we know that thou art true, and teachest the way of God in truth, neither carest thou for any man: for thou regardest not the person of men.

17 Tell us therefore, What thinkest thou? Is it lawful to give tribute unto Caesar, or not?

18 But Jesus perceived their wickedness, and said, Why tempt ye me, ye hypocrites?

19 Shew me the tribute money. And they brought unto him a penny.

20 And he saith unto them, Whose is this image and superscription?

21 They say unto him, Caesar's. Then saith he unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's.

22 When they had heard these words, they marvelled, and left him, and went their way.

The kingdom of heaven is the gospel Jesus preached to the Jews, Gods' chosen people.

The ones bidden to the wedding, who would not come=the jews.

The king, (God), sent more of His servants to bid them come and the remnant(the jews) treated the servants spiteful, even slew them. (This was Gods people, the Jews, reaction to the gospel brought by Jesus)

Vs 7 God punished His chosen...as history bears. He said they were not worthy of the invitation to the wedding, and sent His servants out to the highways...anywhere else, with the wedding invitation (the gospel of Christ comes to the gentiles everywhere....all are invited)

Both bad and good were found and brought to the wedding....it was furnished with guests.

The king, God, found guests without wedding garments on(these are the tares, they are unregenerate, they do not have Christ put on as their spotless garment) these without Christ as their wedding garment were cast out into outer darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth=hell. This is the same way hell is described elsewhere in scripture. This is not where regenerated believers will ever go.

There is therefore now NO CONDEMNATION to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. ROM 8:1

Much more then, being now justified by His blood, we shall be SAVED FROM WRATH through Him. ROM 5:9

I have more but I would like to take it in chunks. I am learning to rightly divide the word from Pastor Gene Kim. Honestly, every apparent so called 'contradiction' in Gods word is not confusing anymore through discerning who He is speaking to. I am excited to learn more and more of Gods word applying this method and I welcome input! Iron sharpens iron! Let everything with breath praise the Lord!

[awareness]

Originally Posted by byHismercy

I want to be obedient to Him in all ways AND simultaneously I don't believe there is any such a punishment for regenerated believers. I think is is a lie from the devil......1,000 years outer darkness. I think it is important to figure these things out, not to give us license to sin, nor live in our own private rebellion against God.

Thanks for this post, and all the Bible references.

After living this life I think a day in outer darkness could be a desired respite. My question is : What's outer mean? If it means no other people in it I'm all for it. I could use a day break from people. Hopefully longer, if allowed.

And thanks Jesus, for telling me about it. Otherwise I'd be stuck somewhere in other darkness not knowing if it's forever or not. A day is one thing. But forever? That's another. Now I know it's for only a day.

Then I hope God is welling to answer a bunch of questions I've collected for Him.

[Raptor]

Originally Posted by byHismercy

Hi saints, I have not further studied Timothy or Revelation, but when I went to bed the other night, this is the word the Lord gave me. John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say to you, He that hears My word, and believes on Him that sent Me, has everlasting life, and SHALL NOT COME INTO CONDEMNATION; but is passed from death to life.

The condemnation here is God´s judgment on sinners that never believed on Him. Once we believe we are saved from that condemnation. But once saved, God desires that we live a life that is well pleasing to Him. Matthew 25:1-30 uses 2 different parables about how believers should live once we are saved, loving Him and serving Him. I encourage you to study these in detail. All 10 virgins are expecting to meet the Bridegroom, but 5 are foolish and 5 are wise. The slaves are entrusted to serve the Master, some serve faithfully, but one is lazy and does not.

They are clearly saved believers, but each get a reward or discipline accordingly: the foolish virgins miss the wedding feast and are not recognized by the Lord, and the lazy slave is called evil by the Lord and is punished into outer darkness. But look at the reward for being ready and faithful "....the bridegroom arrived. Those who were ready went in with Him to the wedding banquet", and "Well done, good and faithful servant! You have been faithful with a few things; I will put you in charge of many things. Enter into the joy of your master!".

By His grace and mercy, we can choose to love Him, pursue Him, gain Him, serve Him faithfully and be well pleasing to Him at His coming!

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Raptor

The condemnation here is God´s judgment on sinners that never believed on Him. Once we believe we are saved from that condemnation. But once saved, God desires that we live a life that is well pleasing to Him. Matthew 25:1-30 uses 2 different parables about how believers should live once we are saved, loving Him and serving Him. I encourage you to study these in detail. All 10 virgins are expecting to meet the Bridegroom, but 5 are foolish and 5 are wise. The slaves are entrusted to serve the Master, some serve faithfully, but one is lazy and does not.

They are clearly saved believers, but each get a reward or discipline accordingly: the foolish virgins miss the wedding feast and are not recognized by the Lord, and the lazy slave is called evil by the Lord and is punished into outer darkness. But look at the reward for being ready and faithful "....the bridegroom arrived. Those who were ready went in with Him to the wedding banquet", and "Well done, good and faithful servant! You have been faithful with a few things; I will put you in charge of many things. Enter into the joy of your master!".

By His grace and mercy, we can choose to love Him, pursue Him, gain Him, serve Him faithfully and be well pleasing to Him at His coming!

In going through the first several books of the Old Testament, I'm struck by how severely the Lord held people accountable! So we shouldn't be too surprised that there is some level of accountability in the New Covenant too. God is love AND light. Praise the Lord that we are in a covenant of GRACE! But again, we need to be aware that there are cautions and warnings and admonitions in the NT to not get distracted or turn aside or fall in the practice of gross sin, etc. The encouragement in Hebrews is to look away to Him and be diligent to enter into His rest - all that He has done for us and all that he is in us! (But remember. . . the children of Israel were not allowed to enter because they didn't trust Him.)

Bottom-line to me is to be "faithful in a few things" as the Lord told the faithful servants in Matt 25 (and the "snapshots" of faith of those listed in Hebrews 11), then we'll hear, "Well done good and faithful servant! Enter into the joy of the Lord!"