1,000 Years of Outer Darkness

[byHismercy]

Originally Posted by Jo S

I admit, I've never heard this interpretation before. I'm curious, is this what the LC teach regarding the falling away?...

So the approach to exegetical biblical interpretation is the premise that scripture interprets scripture. Chances are certain narratives are repeated multiple times throughout the bible so they can be compared and a proper and consistent understanding can be derived from that.

So in terms of 2 Thessalonians 2, what I do first is look for the term in the original language and then look for other verses concerning an end times "falling away". Then I compare them to find it's meaning.

The Greek for "falling away" is "apostasia"

What I come up with is Matthew 24:10 where Jesus talks about the signs of his 2nd coming and a falling away.

"Apostasia" is the term found both in Matthew and Thessalonica.

The definition of apostasy is; a renunciation of the truth.

So the thought here is that one can't renounce something that they never knew was true in the first place. It implies that this is speaking of those that knew about the truth (Jesus Christ) yet ended up abandoning him in the end.

Another verse to support this thought is 1 Timothy 1:19...

On the other hand you have eisegetical biblical interpretation and it is a subjective interpretation where one's own worldview is imposed over the text. It ends up usually adding something to the text that is not there or taking away.

In the case of the interpretation you presented, the object of a "veil" is being added to the text. A veil isn't something that's explicitly mentioned in the verse but is added through presupposition that this verse is an analogy rather than a literal statement.

I can see how it's easy to do that because the terminology used there, "falling away" and "reveal", can easily paint such a picture. But the error comes from not looking at the original language to see the context of the English word used by the translators.

Now even with exegesis, you can go in circles all day but it's the safer method when interpreting scripture.

Ok, so, to explain my situation, I would say I am just now learning how to read Gods'word. I am not assuming analogy was used here, but just trying to read the verse in context of the rest of the letter. I read the epistle to the Thessalonians several time this morning trying to see the subject of the letter and the whole picture of what Paul is trying to convey. I don't think myself above making MANY mistakes interpreting scripture. And I would love to study the word using the original authors intent through knowing original language and their definitions. How do I do this? Even the concept of having presuppositions which we bring with us, and misapply to the word is new to me. I know we are susceptible to doing it, but I don't think I am here. I was just trying to interpret the letter as a whole. And yes, I agree, the text does not explicitly say veil.

I didn't have any 'religious' education to get presuppositions from, really. I would call my primary family uninvolved with God. Then I received Christ a very young adult, then immediately into the LC. I cannot even stomach TV ministers, so I have no belief 'system' that I 'come from', if that makes any sense. And I choose now to reject EVERYTHING LC. If I can identify it!

So I now wonder this, apostasia is to renounce the truth.....if the antichrist knew the truth of Christ, but is working against Gods will in the world, for all men to come to the saving knowledge of Christ, couldn't the apostasy in Thess. be referring to the antichrists' own apostasy?

[Jo S]

Originally Posted by byHismercy

So I now wonder this, apostasia is to renounce the truth.....if the antichrist knew the truth of Christ, but is working against Gods will in the world, for all men to come to the saving knowledge of Christ, couldn't the apostasy in Thess. be referring to the antichrists' own apostasy?

I see. Well, my short answer would be this; In 2 Thess 2:3 the apostasy is alluding to a future event that has not yet come and since Satan has long apostatized, or rejected the truth, it's couldn't be referring to him.

If you go on further to verses 2 Thess 2:10-12, it's referring not to a single person but plural "they" referring to a group of people.

Originally Posted by byHismercy

And I choose now to reject EVERYTHING LC. If I can identify it!

Very good!

[byHismercy]

Originally Posted by Jo S

I see. Well, my short answer would be this; In 2 Thess 2:3 the apostasy is alluding to a future event that has not yet come and since Satan has long apostatized, or rejected the truth, it's couldn't be referring to him.

If you go on further to verses 2 Thess 2:10-12, it's referring not to a single person but plural "they" referring to a group of people.



Very good!

Jo, I see the plural group you referenced. I read them as unbelievers because of the way Paul described them. They are 'them that perish', they received not the love of the truth, God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie, they all might be damned who believe not the truth, they had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Then immediately following this description of 'them', Paul contrasts with his thankfulness for the saints who are brethren beloved of the Lord, chosen of God to salvation, through sanctification of the spirit and belief of the truth.

But I think I see what you are saying, that the plural them, the damned group, you see as once knowing the truth and having fallen away because of the translation of apostasia? That they must be fallen believers? Am I understanding your position correctly?

[Jo S]

Originally Posted by byHismercy

But I think I see what you are saying, that the plural them, the damned group, you see as once knowing the truth and having fallen away because of the translation of apostasia? That they must be fallen believers? Am I understanding your position correctly?

Yes, you're correct. And I mean believers in the sense of having knowledge of the truth but are unregenerate. When the restrainer (the Holy Spirit) is removed these believers will eventually fall away from the true gospel and into deceitful doctrines taught by demons.(1 Tim 4:1).

An example of this would be what Paul alludes to here in 2 Thess 2:9-10;

"The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with how Satan works. He will use all sorts of displays of power through signs and wonders that serve the lie, 10 and all the ways that wickedness deceives those who are perishing."

Christ first talked about this in Matthew 7:22;

"Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?"

So here is an example that shows that in the end-times there will be professing Christians who prophesy and even preform miracles in Jesus's name yet are cast away from his presence not ever actually having known the truth.

It's scary to think that in the last days there will be individuals outwardly professing Christ and preforming miracles yet they won't be empowered by the Holy Spirit but by Satan.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Jo S

Yes, you're correct. And I mean believers in the sense of having knowledge of the truth but are unregenerate. When the restrainer (the Holy Spirit) is removed these believers will eventually fall away from the true gospel and into deceitful doctrines taught by demons.(1 Tim 4:1).

You seem to think that this "falling away" will only occur in the future, at some definite point.

I agree some of this will occur. The coming "mark of the beast" will be a definite turning point for the people of God. It will be a test many will fail.

But the verse above mentions "doctrines of demons." One example given is "forbidding to marry." (I Tim 4.3) Rome has long forbidden their priests to marry, with much corruption resulting (e.g. pedophilia). Has not this part of the "falling away" been going on for centuries?

[Jo S]

Originally Posted by Ohio

You seem to think that this "falling away" will only occur in the future, at some definite point.

I agree some of this will occur. The coming "mark of the beast" will be a definite turning point for the people of God. It will be a test many will fail.

But the verse above mentions "doctrines of demons." One example given is "forbidding to marry." (I Tim 4.3) Rome has long forbidden their priests to marry, with much corruption resulting (e.g. pedophilia). Has not this part of the "falling away" been going on for centuries?

Yes, that's what scripture points to; a definitive point in time when the Holy Spirit will be removed and Satan is cast down to earth. At that point the antichrist will come on the public stage.

I understand that Satan and his demons have been at work since creation but Satan still has access between the earth and the spiritual realm. The time will come when he'll be cast out of heaven and forced to make home in a person, which is the man of lawlessness.

It's not going to be a pretty time and masses of professing Christians will fall away. The seeds of false doctrines are already being planted in the hearts and minds of men. Make sure you do all that you can to stand firm in the faith. Focus on the simplicity of Christ and his gospel and turn away from the deep hidden esoteric knowledge of Satan.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Jo S

Yes, that's what scripture points to; a definitive point in time when the Holy Spirit will be removed and Satan is cast down to earth. At that point the antichrist will come on the public stage.

Many Christians today are convinced that they will be raptured PRIOR to the tribulation or time of testing called the "falling away." For obvious reasons, most ministers avoid this topic. Times are coming that will obviously shock us all.

To his credit, Lee did go thru the N.T. and taught on nearly every verse. Back in the early days, his teachings were more about the Bible and less about his pet projects.

Lee actually had a good number of accurate teachings on eschatology, which he passed on from Govett and Panton. They definitely were pioneers in the field. Lee did tackle many troublesome verses. That's not to say I endorse everything, and frankly there is much I don't know. The GLA LC's also had many learned brothers which were a tremendous benefit over the years.

[Raptor]

"unless the apostasy comes first and the man of lawlessness is revealed". Why is apostasy so closely coupled with the man of lawlessness in this verse?

MAYBE MAYBE MAYBE MAYBE MAYBE MAYBE

TLDR: the apostasy may be a general atmosphere of rebellion in the whole world, but specifically the ultimate rebellion, that is Antichrist stopping the sacrifices, setting up his image in the temple, and making himself God.

The more I look at all the related verses (Matt, 2 Tim, 2 Thess, Rev, Dan) it seems that there is/will be a universal trend and atmosphere of rebellion and lawlessness that will culminate in Antichrist. Just like a tidal wave, reaching its peak trying to deceive and carry away anyone, either Nations, Christians or Jews. But since the verse and section in 2 Thess. is about the apostasy and Antichrist, it might be good to try to understand "the apostasy" by seeing first the world situation and actions of the Antichrist right before he is revealed as a man of lawlessness, when he is "still good". He is probably going to be an outstanding politician and economist, accomplishing unprecedented things, very charismatic, garnering much political and military support and increasing in power and influence in the whole world, culminating as the leader of the restored Roman Empire. Eventually he brokers the 7 year peace treaty that allows Israel to resume the sacrifices and offerings in the rebuilt temple. That is probably the greatest political accomplishment of the modern age. There will have to be a huge world-wide support behind him to do this and one that had been going on for several years. Just the fact the the temple is rebuilt, indicates a nations-wide, long term support for Israel over several years. He and the whole system behind him will be in favor of Israel, they will be "Zionists", in favor of the Jews, Israel, Jerusalem, the temple, and then even the sacrifices.

Then suddenly he breaks the treaty 3.5 years into it, stops the sacrifices and will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God. That is the culmination of rebellion, a great apostasy, a great falling away. Not only by him and for him, but he drags all the world with him into that rebellion, all those people, countries and kings now rebel with him too. There is probably no greater old covenant sin against God as this, to proclaim to be God, force people to worship you or die, and place an idol of yourself in the temple of God. This may be "the apostasy comes first" and then right after this he is revealed as the beast, the man of lawlessness.

Daniel 9:27 And he will confirm a covenant with many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of the temple will come the abomination that causes desolation, until the decreed destruction is poured out upon him.

"And he will confirm a covenant with many for one week" = still good.

"...end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of the temple will come the abomination that causes desolation" (Antichrist idol) = apostasy

"until the decreed destruction is poured out upon him" = man of lawlessness

[byHismercy]

Originally Posted by Jo S

Yes, you're correct. And I mean believers in the sense of having knowledge of the truth but are unregenerate. When the restrainer (the Holy Spirit) is removed these believers will eventually fall away from the true gospel and into deceitful doctrines taught by demons.(1 Tim 4:1).


It's scary to think that in the last days there will be individuals outwardly professing Christ and preforming miracles yet they won't be empowered by the Holy Spirit but by Satan.

The last days and now. Or maybe these are the last days. Because those you just described is really what I experienced in the LC. They came to me in the name of my Jesus, but practiced hiding the truth, and covering over of the sinful reality, deceiving me in all manner of things and ways. They even claimed shunning us was following the Holy Spirit. But the Lord did anything but shun me afterwards, and I have come to believe that they are being led by a false spirit, not the Spirit of Christ.

[Jo S]

Originally Posted by byHismercy

The last days and now. Or maybe these are the last days. Because those you just described is really what I experienced in the LC. They came to me in the name of my Jesus, but practiced hiding the truth, and covering over of the sinful reality, deceiving me in all manner of things and ways. They even claimed shunning us was following the Holy Spirit. But the Lord did anything but shun me afterwards, and I have come to believe that they are being led by a false spirit, not the Spirit of Christ.

You're absolutely correct, byHismercy.

I believe ZNP said it. God uses false prophets, at least in the case of His children, for good.

"Now when they fall, they will be granted a little help, but many will join them insincerely. Some of the wise will fall, so that they may be refined, purified, and made spotless until the time of the end, for it will still come at the appointed time." -Daniel 11:34-35

I know it's been difficult coping, but the Lord used your experience of falling into the Local Churches to purify you and prepare you for what's ahead. Take comfort in knowing that.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by byHismercy

But I think I see what you are saying, that the plural them, the damned group, you see as once knowing the truth and having fallen away because of the translation of apostasia? That they must be fallen believers? Am I understanding your position correctly?

Would not evolution be part of an apostasia? At the heart of evolution is the denial of God. If nature teaches us of God (Romans 1.18-23), then all those who believe evolution, denying the existence of God, are part of the "falling away."