Nigel Tomes - LSM's Unorthodox Satanology

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

So please forgive me for coming late to the party, but can someone summarize what we've determined in these 275 posts?

To facilitate the answer, I have these three questions:

1. What is sin dwelling in man’s flesh (as per Romans 7) and where did it come from?
2. Are there only two sources in the universe?
3. Adam & Eve ate something forbidden in the garden – what got into man?

1. Sin is disobeying God. It came from the disobedient action that God gave Adam & Eve the freedom to do if they chose to do so.
2. One source, as ZNP said.
3. What got into man was the fruit of the tree physically (which was good for food), as well as the knowledge of good and evil, experientially. Sin was a result of "the offense" or "the disobedience" as mentioned in Romans.

Trapped

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Trapped

1. Sin is disobeying God. It came from the disobedient action that God gave Adam & Eve the freedom to do if they chose to do so.
2. One source, as ZNP said.
3. What got into man was the fruit of the tree physically (which was good for food), as well as the knowledge of good and evil, experientially. Sin was a result of "the offense" or "the disobedience" as mentioned in Romans.

Trapped

Interesting word Paul uses in Romans 7:17 -20 - dwell, as in "no longer I that do it, but sin dwelling in me" and "no good thing dwells in me."

Do only living things "dwell"? (this Greek word is also sometimes translated "living")

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Interesting word Paul uses in Romans 7:17 -20 - dwell, as in "no longer I that do it, but sin dwelling in me" and "no good thing dwells in me."
Do only living things "dwell"? (this Greek word is also sometimes translated "living")

My own take is not to take the word "dwell" too far. If a verse said "hatred dwells in him", we wouldn't think "oh, this means hatred is a living thing" and dissect the nature and essence of hatred. We would just realize it's non-literal language and move on. I see "dwell" and take it to mean that that is where sin always is......it is always present. Like "lives" as opposed to "visits".

[UntoHim]

ZNP, Jo S and others,

Lots and lots of "TMI" on this thread lately. Most of the postings are taking us far afield of Nigel Tomes' original paper. I would suggest everyone go back to the opening post (Nigel's paper) and work everything from there.

If all else fails you guys can just Pray-Read this last post by Trapped:

My own take is not to take the word "dwell" too far. If a verse said "hatred dwells in him", we wouldn't think "oh, this means hatred is a living thing" and dissect the nature and essence of hatred. We would just realize it's non-literal language and move on.

-

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

ZNP, Jo S and others,

Lots and lots of "TMI" on this thread lately. Most of the postings are taking us far afield of Nigel Tomes' original paper. I would suggest everyone go back to the opening post (Nigel's paper) and work everything from there.

If all else fails you guys can just Pray-Read this last post by Trapped:

-

Some of this "going far a-field" of the original topic may be due to me, once again, coming late to the party! I can now see that there's already been some good, prior discussion regarding the word "dwell." Sorry.

I came to read this because of a YouTube video from The Lord's Recovery Unchained. My family has some kind dysfunctional issues because of this teaching. They used to call me "Get behind me, Satan" whenever we got into a fight.*

Originally Posted by Unregistered

I came to read this because of a YouTube video from The Lord's Recovery Unchained. My family has some kind dysfunctional issues because of this teaching. They used to call me "Get behind me, Satan" whenever we got into a fight.*

I have heard that said to me about a dozen times over the last year or so. I’m used to it, I know exactly when it’s going to come out, I know exactly what triggers this response. Let me translate that for you, so that you don’t get offended by such statement from the members, or your family:

“Please don’t dare to question me, my actions or what I’m saying. Don’t ever think you have a right to say anything when it comes to what and who I follow or ask me to provide some backing for what I believe! You just don’t get it! You are not in this vision! Also, don’t beat me with your Bible over my head, or what it’s says! I’m not interested! As a matter of fact, everything you just said is coming from down under, careful who you speaking for, I’m done with you, so get behind me satan!” (Conversation ended)

Sounds familiar?

When you touch the hidden, the real raw issues of the heart, you are the number one enemy, and will be condemned to be a subject of satan. Oh what depth and lengths people will go to hide their true objects of worship, even at the expense of their own family, loved ones, even their children!

[Jo S]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

So then you agree that God created Lucifer.

Got it. Not good is not created by God. Where did they come from?

They partook of the darkness? Where did it come from? Who created it?

Yes, and Lucifer was good in the beginning. Then out of his own free will, Lucifer sinned and darkness entered him.

The mistake in thought you're making is that you're making sin a created thing. Cold isn't a property, it's the absence of a property. Heat however is a tangible thing.

The same is with light. Light is created, darkness (sin) is not.

You ask "where does darkness come form?". "Come from" implies a created property confined to time, space, and matter. Darkness is a void or vacuum and isn't a measurable tangible thing that requires "creating" therefore sin did not "come from" anywhere. It's just the absence of light or God's presence. You're making an assumption and concluding darkness and sin are from the same substance as God's Word (light and good).

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Got it, God did not create everyone. Who then is this other creator you are alluding to?

Sorry, I missed what part of the discussion this last bit was referring to.

Fair enough, but whoever created Hitler, Stalin, and Nero, that is not a laptop, that is life and matter from nothingness.

God created Adam and Eve, He created them in His image. This image is what we refer to as the soul. God created this image (the raw material in my laptop analogy) but He is not the creator of the end result of a soul that chooses to partake in darkness. Therefore God is not responsible for the end result that is Hitler, Stalin (or the laptop).

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Oh, the old guns don't kill people, people kill people defense. I manufactured the gun, lobbied for all kinds of laws which make it very difficult to trace the gun and easy for it to be bought on the street in untraceable bills, and in fingerprint resistant casing so you don't leave fingerprints, but I'm not responsible for it being used to kill people or commit a crime. Got it.

But God didn't manufacture darkness and He doesn't lobby for sin. He's not responsible for our choice to live a life apart from Him. By saying God "created " evil men, is saying that He created evil to be carried out by these men. He did not because this is not who He is.

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Nope, you didn't read my post carefully. I point out that by creating the tree of the knowledge of good and evil God made it so that the minute we disobey him (and all evil is rebellion against God) at that minute we are unable to destroy anything other than mortal flesh which compared to eternity is like destroying pixels on a video game. You can choose to have an evil heart and that will be revealed, but you cannot harm the soul or the spirit.

We are all born with an evil heart, it's not a choice we got to make because none of us were born out of God's very substance or Word, only Jesus. We were born our of the will of man in God's image along with the result of fallen men (John 1:13). That doesn't mean our parents "created" us from nothingness but out of our parents we were inherently born into darkness. God did not create any of us with darkness in his mind because what He creates is only good. We were the result of God's created image tainted with the result of humanities sin.

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Fair enough, those things occurred as a result of man choosing to disobey God. But God created a universe where man could make that choice, being omniscient He also foresaw that would happen. Which again, is why the tree of Knowledge is described as a tree created by God, a good tree, and one that was placed in the garden by God. That tree protects the creation from the potential evil in rebelling against God.

He didn't foresee that it "would" happen. That's an assumption. We can say that God foresaw it "could" happen. "Would" renders free-will null and void. "Could", however, does not.

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

So then He is not Lord? Hitler can kill millions of people running this marathon and God is like "hands off" I only care about the finish line, not what takes place during the race?

He cares but that does not mean He will interfere. Omnipotence allows God to take action or restrict His presence and part of that hinges on the free-will He chose to give us.

ZNP, I'm familiar with these beliefs because I had a friend that was raised in a Christian household but became a eastern mystic later on. He had the same pantheistic views concerning God as you do. It makes sense because the LC's are a blend of eastern mysticism and biblical doctrine. But ultimately the belief that God "created" sin and evil men is a subtle and crafty attack on His character. The further you take this belief, the further you get away from a loving Father into a god that's universal indifferent "force".

God is love and there is no darkness in Him. Therefore because darkness is not in Him, it could not have come from Him.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Jo S

Yes, and Lucifer was good in the beginning. Then out of his own free will, Lucifer sinned and darkness entered him.

The mistake in thought you're making is that you're making sin a created thing. Cold isn't a property, it's the absence of a property. Heat however is a tangible thing.

The same is with light. Light is created, darkness (sin) is not.

You ask "where does darkness come form?". "Come from" implies a created property confined to time, space, and matter. Darkness is a void or vacuum and isn't a measurable tangible thing that requires "creating" therefore sin did not "come from" anywhere. It's just the absence of light or God's presence. You're making an assumption and concluding darkness and sin are from the same substance as God's Word (light and good).

Wow, this is some really deep philosophical stuff. So in the previous post you said that Hitler and these others "partook of the darkness", yet like the Phantom Toll Booth, they weren't actually partaking of any thing but the absence of something, they were eating minus signs? Woah??!!

So if darkness is nothingness, and Lucifer "became" evil from this nothingness does that mean that evil was created from nothing? Sounds like some kind of alternate God you have going on there, like the alternate superman.

Originally Posted by Jo S

God created Adam and Eve, He created them in His image. This image is what we refer to as the soul. God created this image (the raw material in my laptop analogy) but He is not the creator of the end result of a soul that chooses to partake in darkness. Therefore God is not responsible for the end result that is Hitler, Stalin (or the laptop).

But God didn't manufacture darkness and He doesn't lobby for sin. He's not responsible for our choice to live a life apart from Him. By saying God "created " evil men, is saying that He created evil to be carried out by these men. He did not because this is not who He is.

We are all born with an evil heart, it's not a choice we got to make because none of us were born out of God's very substance or Word, only Jesus. We were born our of the will of man in God's image along with the result of fallen men (John 1:13). That doesn't mean our parents "created" us from nothingness but out of our parents we were inherently born into darkness. God did not create any of us with darkness in his mind because what He creates is only good. We were the result of God's created image tainted with the result of humanities sin.

OK let me try to summarize. We were all created by God. We were all born with an evil heart. But that evil heart was not created by God. The problem is that Man (created by God) was "tainted" with evil but that evil did not come from God. So where did it come from?

Originally Posted by Jo S

He didn't foresee that it "would" happen. That's an assumption. We can say the God forsaw it "could" happen. "Would" renders free-will null and void. "Could", however, does not.

This also is an assumption. We know that God foresaw that man would be fruitful and multiply. It is not unreasonable to say that God could foresee millions, even billions of men on this earth. Since free will can logically assume millions of choices, a few evil rebellious ones mixed in is certainly a logical assumption. Yes if I flip a coin a million times it is fair to say that I foresaw it "could" have a heads in there. But it is also fair to say that based on the law of averages it would have a heads in there.

Originally Posted by Jo S

He cares but that does not mean He will interfere. Omnipotence allows God to take action or restrict His presence and part of that hinges on the free-will He chose to give us.

Did you just nullify the power of prayer? Why on earth would anyone pray if they thought God would not interfere. What about intervene? What about intercede? I thought the Spirit intercedes for us praying in words we don't understand? None of this is Biblical, simply your poor reach of mind.

Originally Posted by Jo S

ZNP, I'm familiar with these beliefs because I had a friend that was raised in a Christian household but became a eastern mystic later on. He had the same pantheistic views concerning God as you do.

I am not the one who is claiming there are two different creators, that is you. I am proclaiming one God. I am also not the one proclaiming that there are multiple Lords, I am proclaiming there is one Lord, now, yesterday and forever. You are the one that says He is "hands off" until the finish line allowing all kinds of evil to take place that He is not responsible for. I am proclaiming one creation. You are proclaiming that this one creation did not include evil, you have some hokey way of saying that evil came into the creation, tainted the creation, yet don't explain how it was created out of nothing (darkness).

Originally Posted by Jo S

It makes sense because the LC's are a blend of eastern mysticism and biblical doctrine. But ultimately the belief that God "created" sin and evil men is a sly and crafty attack on His character. The further you take this belief, the more you get away from a loving Father into a god that's universal indifferent "force".

To deny the word of God as being the word of God is the true "crafty attack". Saying that I am pantheistic (when I haven't said one word that would support that) and then saying this makes sense because the LC is rooted in China is confirmation bias. You believe what you want to believe and then take bogus evidence to support your bogus assertion. However, ad hominem attacks like this are typical of some within the LC. Perhaps that is where you learned to behave like this.

Originally Posted by Jo S

God is love and there is no darkness in Him. Therefore because darkness is not in Him, it could not have come from Him.

Exactly. So then, where did it come from? Because all things came from the word and apart from the word nothing that has come into being has come into being.

[ZNPaaneah]

This whole "darkness is the absence of light" argument contradicts the fact that God is omnipresent.

The Bible says "where shall I go and God is not there? If I make my bed in Sheol behold, God is there". What they are saying is that because God is absent, not there, then evil some how spontaneously generates.

For this argument to be true several things have to be true:

1. Some other entity is responsible for evil.

Therefore you have more than one creator, whoever it is that created whatever it is that "tainted" man and made him evil.

2. Deny the Lordship of God. Jesus is Lord. That is today. I can pray to Him and I have an advocate. The buck stops with Him. He is above all.

But according to this doctrine Jesus is not responsible, not in this age. That is to deny the Lordship of Jesus.

3. Deny that God is omnipresent.

4. Fudge that God is omniscient. He doesn't actually foresee all things, He simply knows that some things are possible and "could happen".

But there is another problem as well. Take Oskar Schindler. This is the adulterous man who took all of his money and exchanged it for Jews who were destined for the gas chamber. The Jews honor him greatly as a righteous man, a man of faith.

But none of the glory of that faith would have been revealed had it not been for Hitler and the gas chambers.

[Cal]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

This whole "darkness is the absence of light" argument contradicts the fact that God is omnipresent.

ZNP,

Darkness is the absence of light. Everyone knows that. Because God is omnipresent doesn't mean darkness is of him. That's an invalid argument. It's mixing apples and oranges.

God didn't create evil, he defined it. It's anything contrary to him.

This subject is fodder for "Alternative Views," not the main board. And we've already discussed it anyway.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Igzy

ZNP,

Darkness is the absence of light. Everyone knows that. Because God is omnipresent doesn't mean darkness is of him. That's an invalid argument. It's mixing apples and oranges.

God didn't create evil, he defined it. It's anything contrary to him.

This subject is fodder for "Alternative Views," not the main board. And we've already discussed it anyway.

This discussion began Post #275 Sons to Glory! asked 3 questions.

My argument is not that Darkness is of God. Jo S is saying Evil is a result of people like Hitler "partaking of darkness". I am simply trying to get clarification on how anyone could partake of the "absence" of something, and how that "absence" could create evil?

[awareness]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

This discussion began Post #275 Sons to Glory! asked 3 questions.

My argument is not that Darkness is of God. Jo S is saying Evil is a result of people like Hitler "partaking of darkness". I am simply trying to get clarification on how anyone could partake of the "absence" of something, and how that "absence" could create evil?

The Problem of evil thread on Alternative Views more than covers this. I'm sure more could be said. I'm sure Sons to Glory could add something to it.

[Cal]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

This discussion began Post #275 Sons to Glory! asked 3 questions.

My argument is not that Darkness is of God. Jo S is saying Evil is a result of people like Hitler "partaking of darkness". I am simply trying to get clarification on how anyone could partake of the "absence" of something, and how that "absence" could create evil?

I can't believe you are asking that question. Remove God from your life and see what happens. Look at the Soviet Union. They tried their best to remove God and look what they got.

Sometimes you miss the obvious Z, by getting caught up in the semantics.