Guru Papers

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Weighingin

Yes, I've been trying to understand how I had gotten confused by these teachings when the word has been in front of me all of these years.
As you mentioned in Matt 17, "Hear Him." That's when Moses and Elijah were standing right next to Christ. Another contrast was John 17, law came through Moses, grace and reality through Jesus Christ.
Even though Moses representing God or being His deputy authority wasn't a wrong teaching, I've been trying to see how I misunderstood For many years that it applied to WL, the MOTA, and the NT age.

You and me both.

Both Nee and Lee used both Moses and Noah to promote their "deputy authority" heresy. It had little to do with owning up to the tremendous responsibilities that would entail, rather it was all about others submitting to their authority in the face of failure. Since both Mariam and Ham were both cursed for their actions, what better way to instill the "fear of God" in your followers? Since both Nee and Lee had lots of "dirt under their rugs," those deputy authority teachings would come in handy at times.

Who am I to talk about "dirt under my rug," as I have plenty? What I don't have, however, is the ability to silence my detractors with "fear curses." In the end though, isn't it better to repent today, rather than hide it until it's too late?

[aron]

Originally Posted by Weighingin

Yes, I've been trying to understand how I had gotten confused by these teachings when the word has been in front of me all of these years.

As you mentioned in Matt 17, "Hear Him." That's when Moses and Elijah were standing right next to Christ. Another contrast was John 1:17, law came through Moses, grace and reality through Jesus Christ.

Even though Moses representing God or being His deputy authority wasn't a wrong teaching, I've been trying to see how I misunderstood For many years that it applied to WL, the MOTA, and the NT age.

Originally Posted by Ohio

You and me both.

Yes, and I doubt a definitive answer is easily found. But I’ll share a few impressions. One theme in the gospels was Roman occupation (following that of Assyrian/Babylonian/Persian/Greek) and a desire for the liberating Kingdom of God eschaton in the “Son of David” promised by God’s prophets, and a second big issue was over the resurrection of the dead - remember the Saduccees/Pharisees were split along these lines & Paul still dealt with it in 1 Cor 15:13 &c (see also Acts 4:2, 23:6 &c). The resurrection of Jesus solved both issues definitively. He was the Firstborn from the dead, witnessed by many (1 Cor 15:4-8; Acts 1:3), which forever confirmed his status as the long-awaited Davidic heir who'd usher in the new age of peace under God’s rule. Even though Christians didn’t see all things yet under his feet, they treated it as fait accompli (Heb 2:8; 1 Cor 15:27).

Along similar lines is "the Prophet" in the NT. They asked John, “Are you the Christ” and “are you Elijah” (the promised fore-runner of the Christ[Matt 17:10]) and “are you the Prophet” in John 1:21 (cf John 6:24). In Deut 18 Moses had said that God would raise up another like him, who must be heard and obeyed, and this didn’t mean Jeremiah or Ezekiel, but rather another Law-giver, another Mediator who could stand between humanity and God. ''But since then there has not arisen in Israel a prophet like Moses, whom the Lord knew face to face'' (Deut 34:10), and "There is one Mediator between God and man, the man Christ Jesus" (1 Tim 2:5).

My point here is that Witness Lee overlooked how “high Christology” this was, scandalously high, sacrilegious to those of Jewish religion. None could overturn Moses! But the NT argument was that Jesus alone fulfilled Moses and was therefore the only one who could and would give the Word from God as Moses had done. There was only a unique Second Moses, Jesus the Nazarene, and there would never be a third or fourth. This is what's behind John 1:17. The law came through Moses, grace and reality came through Jesus Christ. Jesus didn't overturn Moses, but fulfilled him, and brought God's Law to the next stage, of love. Thus only Jesus could say, "A new commandment I give unto you, that you love one another..."

For confirmation, Jesus said, “If you believed Moses, you'd believe me, for he wrote about me” in John 5, and the charge against Stephen in Acts 6: “For we've heard him say that Jesus of Nazareth will destroy this place and change the customs that Moses handed down to us.” Stephen’s response was that their forefathers had been disobedient to Moses, and now they were disobedient to the One whom Moses had promised them!

Witness Lee ignored the extremely “high Christological” significance of Deut 18, referencing 1 Cor 14:1, 3-5,24-25,31 and footnotes there (RecV Deut 18:15 [fn 1] and 18:18 [fn 1]). However, “You can all prophesy, one by one” in 1 Cor 14:31 hardly satisfies the question put to John the Baptist! “Are you the Prophet” referenced Moses' word, and this link to Deut 18 is explicitly made by Peter in Acts 3:22 and Stephen in Acts 7:37.

One other point should be made: Deut 33:2, Moses’ final blessing, says,
“The LORD came from Sinai,
And dawned on them from Seir;
He shone forth from Mount Paran,
And He came from among ten thousand holy ones;
At His right hand was a flaming fire, a law, for them.” (AMP)

If you look at the giving of the law as described in Deut 33:2 it's not “dead letters” on stone tablets but rather dynamic, living, flaming fire, shining forth. It's the Light of Humanity (John 1:4) that shines into the darkness, and the darkness doesn't overcome it. (v.5) The Word is the Light... John the Baptist wasn't the Light, but came to testify concerning the Light (v.8), concerning the True Light which came into the world (v.9). Moses received the Law, but even then it was a Shining Word of Light to men, and then the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, full of grace and reality. This gives needed context to John 1:17 - the Word is the flaming Light at the right hand of God in Deut 33:2. This is the creating Word that came before all things (John 1:1-3), so this Prophet is incomprehensibly high above all. The Word is greater than Moses because the Word was before Moses. No wonder the Sanhedrin was scandalised.

There's a gold mine there, and Witness Lee missed it, but he got to be Recovery Guru, one in a line of Greats – Moses, Paul, Luther, Darby, Nee, then Lee... in the Recovery, these were the MOTAs, Untouchables with God’s Oracle. Moses and even Jesus were merely props in the Recovery drama. Of course Recovery folk demur, saying, “Christ, Only Christ”, but the Guru as Today's Moses and Today's Paul got to define the Recovered Christ didn't he? "Christ" was a prop, whatever the Guru needed to get through the day, and to bring along his nonspiritual sons that came with him. Suddenly "Christ" wanted Daystar, wanted Philip Lee as the Office, wanted Door-knocking and PSRP and the Vital Groups. Little Bankers. The New Move. Phosphorous. Lin-Ko. Gold Chairs. Whatever Today's Moses needed to get himself through another day.

[JJ]

In Matthew 5 Jesus said He came to fulfill the law and the prophets. It’s great to be liberated from the lie that Moses was a type of Lee. Jesus fulfills Moses’ prophecy. Hear Him!

[aron]

Originally Posted by JJ

It’s great to be liberated from the lie that Moses was a type of Lee. Jesus fulfills Moses’ prophecy. Hear Him!

John 6:14 After the people saw the sign Jesus performed, they began to say, "Surely this is the Prophet who is to come into the world."

John 7:40 On hearing his words, some of the people said, "Surely this man is the Prophet."

Deuteronomy 18:15 "The LORD your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your fellow Israelites. You must listen to him."

Hear Him! There is no other.

For Deut 18:15, the RecV footnote said that Jesus as an Israelite prophet like Moses showed that he was human as well as divine. Huh? NT usage of this passage showed Jesus' Galilean disciples countering the accusation of the Judeans that they overturned Moses, by replying that it was the Judeans who were disobeying Moses (as their stiff-necked fathers had done) by not receiving the Prophet foretold by Moses! Only this One could give the new command, and could say, "It is written... but I say..."; only this One could walk among the seven burning lamps that Moses had seen - "You must make everything according to what you saw on the holy mountain." (Heb 8:5; Exod 25:40).

The Age of Moses was over, and the Age of Jesus Christ had come. It was an exceedingly high vision.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by aron

There's a gold mine there, and Witness Lee missed it, but he got to be Recovery Guru, one in a line of Greats – Moses, Paul, Luther, Darby, Nee, then Lee... in the Recovery, these were the MOTAs, Untouchables with God’s Oracle. Moses and even Jesus were merely props in the Recovery drama. Of course Recovery folk demur, saying, “Christ, Only Christ”, but the Guru as Today's Moses and Today's Paul got to define the Recovered Christ didn't he? "Christ" was a prop, whatever the Guru needed to get through the day, and to bring along his nonspiritual sons that came with him. Suddenly "Christ" wanted Daystar, wanted Philip Lee as the Office, wanted Door-knocking and PSRP and the Vital Groups. Little Bankers. The New Move. Phosphorous. Lin-Ko. Gold Chairs. Whatever Today's Moses needed to get himself through another day.

Lee's so-called "High Peak" teachings were also a prop.

Lee desperately needed props to divert all of our attention from his own unseemly actions surrounding the expulsion of John Ingalls et.al. for properly exposing and excommunicating his profligate son Philip, the so-called LSM "Office Manager."

What better prop, what better diversion, what better spin, than to claim ministerial persecution and concoct new "recovered" truth? Not recovered from the Bible, but from the church "fathers." Seriously? We were supposed to pick up on this teaching that all the Evangelists and Apostles missed, yet was discovered by a church father? How does Lee then proclaim with a straight face that the Bible is out only "standard?"