Guru Papers

[aron]

Originally Posted by Freedom

. . . as Ron has said - they ain't stepping aside for nobody.

Whatever happened to thinking of others more highly than yourselves? Oh, I know, it disappeared on the Local Ground. The LG was a trojan horse to get you to accept a human cultural ethos centered upon the deification of one of its own. Without the elevation of one of the flock to God-Man status, untouchable and unquestionable, who'd be in charge? Chaos would reign! No, Good Order in the Church is predicated upon Authority and Submission. And in a Normal Christian Church this must be absolute.

All that other stuff, you know, brotherly love, compassion, confessing to one another, mutuality, respecting the gifts of each one member. . . ? It must either be subsumed by Today's Vision, or waved away as irrelevant. Sail on!

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by aron

Whatever happened to thinking of others more highly than yourselves? Oh, I know, it disappeared on the Local Ground. The LG was a trojan horse to get you to accept a human cultural ethos centered upon the deification of one of its own. Without the elevation of one of the flock to God-Man status, untouchable and unquestionable, who'd be in charge? Chaos would reign! No, Good Order in the Church is predicated upon Authority and Submission. And in a Normal Christian Church this must be absolute.

This one's pretty brash.... even for our brother aron!

To my dear brothers and sisters in the Local Churches: You may want to resist the temptation to consider this as simply the ramblings of a bitter former LC member turned "opposer", and instead file this under the "truth hurts" category. Oh, maybe it's something in between the two of these extremes, but an honest evaluation by sober people, both within and out of the Movement, points mostly to the objective truth in what aron has posted.

About 38 years ago the Local Church put out a pamphlet entitled "Beliefs and Practices of The Local Churches". An electronic version is published here:
http://www.localchurches.org/beliefs/faq.html

Under the frequently asked questions area you will find this:

Who is your leader?
Our unique leader is Christ. We have no official, permanent, organized human leadership. Furthermore, there is no hierarchy of any kind and no worldwide leader. We regard no person as infallible, and we do not follow anyone blindly. On the contrary, we follow only those whose teaching and practice is in accordance with the truth of God’s Word.

I still remember, as a young college student, kind of cringing inside upon seeing this statement published. I mean, the objective reality was so different than what is stated here that it was almost embarrassing. Well, in less than a decade's time, Witness Lee was declared to be "The one apostle with the one ministry for the age" - "The one Master Builder" - "The Commander in Chief" - and some LSM trainers boasted: "even if Witness Lee is wrong, he is right!" and the worst of all, one mindless minion declared Lee to be "the fourth member of the trinity"!

Of course the Local Church movement is now partly populated with a large segment of young people who were not even born when these pompous proclamations went forth from the faithful, true believers. However, my dear friends, make no mistake, the Movement is now directed and controlled by people who absolutely believe and subscribe to these preposterous notions.

***Any Local Church elder, co-worker or LSM/DCP official who wants to dispute this is more than welcome to come and set us straight. Your retort will be promptly and prominently featured on the forum's main page. I did have a special module entitled "Soapbox of the saints" posted prominently on the forum for several months. We got almost 1,000 hits/views on this module, but not one LC member took advantage of the opportunity to sock it to us. Maybe you brothers taking the lead in the Local Churches and Living Stream Ministry can break the ice?

-

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by ;49347

About 38 years ago the Local Church put out a pamphlet entitled "Beliefs and Practices of The Local Churches". An electronic version is published here:
http://www.localchurches.org/beliefs/faq.html

Under the frequently asked questions area you will find this:

Who is your leader?
Our unique leader is Christ. We have no official, permanent, organized human leadership. Furthermore, there is no hierarchy of any kind and no worldwide leader. We regard no person as infallible, and we do not follow anyone blindly. On the contrary, we follow only those whose teaching and practice is in accordance with the truth of God’s Word.

Based on LC orthopraxy, the above is strictly for public consumption. Otherwise why is fear of man so prevalent so unhindered in the local churches. Someone doesn't agree with brother Maximum, he's disfellowshipped or subjected to some trivial discipline.

"We regard no person as infallible, and we do not follow anyone blindly. " LC practices contradict the statement.

[JJ]

I also noticed the following statement in the Beliefs and Practices of the Local Churches pamphlet, which I remember believing when it came out.

I'd like other long time LCers to weigh in on whether this is true practice or not.

"All who have saving faith in the Lord Jesus are welcome to all our meetings, especially the Lord’s table, where we testify of the oneness of the Body of Christ. Although we must, for conscience' sake, stand apart from organized religion, we do not stand apart from our brothers and sisters in Christ. In faithfulness to the Lord, we stand on the unique ground of the church for the sake of the Lord’s testimony. But we do not take this stand with a narrow, exclusive, or sectarian spirit. On the contrary, we take our stand on behalf of the whole Body; we receive all believers even as the Lord has received us."

[Betsy]

Originally Posted by JJ

"All who have saving faith in the Lord Jesus are welcome to all our meetings, especially the Lord’s table, where we testify of the oneness of the Body of Christ. Although we must, for conscience' sake, stand apart from organized religion, we do not stand apart from our brothers and sisters in Christ. In faithfulness to the Lord, we stand on the unique ground of the church for the sake of the Lord’s testimony. But we do not take this stand with a narrow, exclusive, or sectarian spirit. On the contrary, we take our stand on behalf of the whole Body; we receive all believers even as the Lord has received us."

It all sounds like corporate strategy designed to grow business, and pilfer building material from the competition whenever possible to enlarge and expand the company. When the economy is down, the efforts will become more strident.

Originally Posted by Terry

Just like the old Canon marketing tag; "Image is everything". Even 19 years after his passing, LSM has an image to project and distribute. Their business is Lee far more than Nee so it's imperative to market Lee as "a humble bondslave", "perfected", etc.

Image is everything, however I was so concerned about the image of WL that I saw on his videos, that I sent one to a body language expert/physician. This expert is not a believer and had no idea who WL was. His verdict : WL showed all the signs of insincerity, much like untrained politicians, used car salesmen or news telecasters.

It's just business, nothing personal. The 2013 tax returns for the LSM shows that they have close to 100 million in assets, they bring in about 20 million per year and 75% of this goes to salaries and expenses.

[Freedom]

"All who have saving faith in the Lord Jesus are welcome to all our meetings, especially the Lord’s table, where we testify of the oneness of the Body of Christ. Although we must, for conscience' sake, stand apart from organized religion, we do not stand apart from our brothers and sisters in Christ. In faithfulness to the Lord, we stand on the unique ground of the church for the sake of the Lord’s testimony. But we do not take this stand with a narrow, exclusive, or sectarian spirit. On the contrary, we take our stand on behalf of the whole Body; we receive all believers even as the Lord has received us."

The environment of the local churches is what I would call a simulated reality. More specifically, rhetoric is what defines reality. What is spoken by leaders is what is believed to be true, no matter how far removed from reality it is. And the issue is not simply that LCers are living in their own world. The real issue is that the beliefs and ideology that LC members think that they are subscribing to are not what is actually practiced. For whatever reasons, LC members can't admit it. I do think that some members are aware of the discrepancy, however, there is the inability to discuss the true reality of the LC environment.

It's ironic that the Beliefs and Practices booklet was ever published. The audience was outsiders, and the reason that outsiders had become concerned about the LC is that they likely saw what was being practiced. So practice is what defined the LC in they eyes of the public. Beliefs were only known to members or those on the outside who had taken the time to assess Lee's teachings. In other words the false narrative presented was really only fooling members, and if it truly fooled them, that is highly concerning and disturbing.

[Betsy]

Originally Posted by Freedom

For whatever reasons, LC members can't admit it.

I've wondered about this too. From what I've been told, they overlook everything because reading/listening to WL gets them in their spirit. It has "life" unlike other ministries. I haven't experienced that. Often in meetings, I can see that they are in some kind of altered state.
The only thing I have to relate to this was as a college student I often went with a large group of people to a nightclub, where the main form of entertainment was a hypnotist on stage. With just a few words and usually within 30 seconds he could perform mass hypnosis. I could never be hypnotized but I could see so many that were, and they were instantly out of character and would do any silly thing by command, things they would never have dreamed of doing otherwise.
This is why I'm dubious when the instructions are to repeat phrases a few times, or many times, along with all the rhythmic "amen"s. Say "Oh Lord Jesus" out loud and for as long as it takes to "get in your spirit"! Is that according to Biblical instruction?

Matthew 6:7 “And when you are praying, do not use meaningless repetition as the Gentiles do, for they suppose that they will be heard for their many words. 8 So do not be like them; for your Father knows what you need before you ask Him. 9 “Pray, then, in this way:

‘Our Father who is in heaven,
Hallowed be Your name............"

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by Renee

Image is everything, however I was so concerned about the image of WL that I saw on his videos, that I sent one to a body language expert / physician . This expert is not a believer and had no idea who WL was. His verdict : WL showed all the signs of insincerity, much like untrained politicians, used car salesmen or news telecasters.

This is interesting. To carry over from the theme of my last post, it seems that with Lee, he really de-emphasized how the message was conveyed, and instead insisted everyone focus on what was spoken. What Lee spoke was thus considered to be an absolute and irrefutable truth. It follows then, that the obvious signs of deception didn't really mean anything to members. What is easily recognizable to outsiders means nothing to members. Witness Lee pulled the ultimate con. He convinced members that he was the singular conveyor of divine inspiration. He convinced members to look no further than himself.

[InChristAlone]

Originally Posted by Freedom

Witness Lee pulled the ultimate con. He convinced members that he was the singular conveyor of divine inspiration. He convinced members to look no further than himself.

This is a mark of a false teacher: A true teacher draws people to God. A false teacher draws people to himself.

I believe that self-exaltation, exclusivity, lack of critical thinking, unquestioning commitment to WL and the blended brothers, blinkered attitude towards others (us-versus-them mentality and firm conviction that there is no life outside of the LRC), esoteric "high-peak truth", and blind certainty that WL and therefore his faithful adepts are always right (even when they are wrong) -- these are some signs of guruism in "the Church of Witness Lee."

[HERn]

Originally Posted by Renee

It all sounds like corporate strategy designed to grow business, and pilfer building material from the competition whenever possible to enlarge and expand the company. When the economy is down, the efforts will become more strident.



Image is everything, however I was so concerned about the image of WL that I saw on his videos, that I sent one to a body language expert / physician . This expert is not a believer and had no idea who WL was. His verdict : WL showed all the signs of insincerity, much like untrained politicians, used car salesmen or news telecasters.

It's just business, nothing personal. The 2013 tax returns for the LSM shows that they have close to 100 million in assets, they bring in about 20 million per year and 75% of this goes to salaries and expenses.

My thinking is that LSM keeps that large amount of cash on-hand as a clear warning to those who publish books against them that "we have enough cash to sue you into bankruptcy, so don't even think about publishing negative things." I would think that a non-profit would not keep such a large cash stash on hand when there are so many needs out there and people groups who don't have the bible in their own language. Why does LSM need to sit on $100 million dollars?

[Betsy]

Originally Posted by HERn

I would think that a non-profit would not keep such a large cash stash on hand when there are so many needs out there and people groups who don't have the bible in their own language. Why does LSM need to sit on $100 million dollars?

I doubt it's a cash stash. It may include many of the meeting halls worldwide?

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Renee

It's just business, nothing personal. The 2013 tax returns for the LSM shows that they have close to 100 million in assets, they bring in about 20 million per year and 75% of this goes to salaries and expenses.

I would think that only applies to United States. For example revenue and assets in Taiwan would not be considered?

[Unsure]

Originally Posted by Renee

Image is everything, however I was so concerned about the image of WL that I saw on his videos, that I sent one to a body language expert/physician. This expert is not a believer and had no idea who WL was. His verdict : WL showed all the signs of insincerity, much like untrained politicians, used car salesmen or news telecasters.

It's just business, nothing personal. The 2013 tax returns for the LSM shows that they have close to 100 million in assets, they bring in about 20 million per year and 75% of this goes to salaries and expenses.

Do you happen to have a link to the video in question? Video analysis of the conferences and trainings could be quite insightful, and to members of the LC with doubts - excuse my language - damning.

[Betsy]

Originally Posted by Unsure

Do you happen to have a link to the video in question? Video analysis of the conferences and trainings could be quite insightful, and to members of the LC with doubts - excuse my language - damning.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=hLNItKCiV08

This is the one -- in Chinese I think, so what was said was irrelevant as it was not understood.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by JJ

I'd like other long time LCers to weigh in on whether this is true practice or not.

"All who have saving faith in the Lord Jesus are welcome to all our meetings, especially the Lord’s table, where we testify of the oneness of the Body of Christ. Although we must, for conscience' sake, stand apart from organized religion, we do not stand apart from our brothers and sisters in Christ. In faithfulness to the Lord, we stand on the unique ground of the church for the sake of the Lord’s testimony. But we do not take this stand with a narrow, exclusive, or sectarian spirit. On the contrary, we take our stand on behalf of the whole Body; we receive all believers even as the Lord has received us."

Brothers who have been quarantined officially or unofficially cannot say this. Neither those localities of Seattle, Bellevue, Spokane, Tacoma, and etc who have closed their doors to "Indiana". Not "All" "are welcome", but some are welcome. When a brother stands up for himself after being pushed around, local elders in the Puget Sound region cannot have that. In their mind it's a sign of rebellion.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

About 38 years ago the Local Church put out a pamphlet entitled "Beliefs and Practices of The Local Churches". An electronic version is published here:
http://www.localchurches.org/beliefs/faq.html

Back in 2003-04, TC had all the GLA LC's get this booklet and read it together as a reminder of our supposed "mission statement."

Comparing that booklet to LSM-dominated LC's is just a joke.

[aron]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

About 38 years ago the Local Church put out a pamphlet entitled "Beliefs and Practices of The Local Churches". An electronic version is published here:
http://www.localchurches.org/beliefs/faq.html

Under the frequently asked questions area you will find this:

Who is your leader?
Our unique leader is Christ. We have no official, permanent, organized human leadership. Furthermore, there is no hierarchy of any kind and no worldwide leader. We regard no person as infallible, and we do not follow anyone blindly. On the contrary, we follow only those whose teaching and practice is in accordance with the truth of God’s Word.

Originally Posted by Freedom

as Ron has said - they ain't stepping aside for nobody.

So if there's no leader, and RK says that he won't step aside for anyone, why should anyone else step aside for him? And, why did he insist that TC and DYL step aside for the Blendeds? And why did RK and BP and many others step aside for WL?

This is an organization whose leaders say anything at any given moment, and who cares if it matches itself, or matches the Bible, or even makes sense, because the "oracle" can say whatever it needs to say. I guess. . . that's the central organizing principle: "I'm God's Deputy and whatever I say goes. I've got the Red Phone to the throne in heaven. I've got the 'mantle'." Not really much different from Leslie Gore singing, "It's my party and I'll cry if I want to."

But thankfully the Deputy God is such a Transformed and Humble Bondslave of Jesus Christ. If the Deputy God had ambition, wow that would be just terrible!

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by aron

So if there's no leader, and RK says that he won't step aside for anyone, why should anyone else step aside for him? And, why did he insist that TC and DYL step aside for the Blendeds? And why did RK and BP and many others step aside for WL?

This is an organization whose leaders say anything at any given moment, and who cares if it matches itself, or matches the Bible, or even makes sense, because the "oracle" can say whatever it needs to say. I guess. . . that's the central organizing principle: "I'm God's Deputy and whatever I say goes. I've got the Red Phone to the throne in heaven. I've got the 'mantle'." Not really much different from Leslie Gore singing, "It's my party and I'll cry if I want to."

LC leaders have long since learned that they have the ability to say whatever they want, and expect little to no push-back. It all started with WL. Some days he was a humble bondservant, other days he brazenly claimed a MOTA status. The story was always changing, and his successors learned how to play the game.

[HERn]

"How can one surrender to a person who might put his self-interest first? Also it is difficult to surrender to someone who can make mistakes, especially mistakes that could have significant impact on one’s life. Consequently, the guru can never be wrong, make mistakes, be self-centered, or lose emotional control. He doesn’t get angry, he “uses” anger to teach."

Sounds like WL to me.

[HERn]

"Any of the following are strong indications of belonging to an authoritarian group: 1. No deviation from the party line is allowed. Anyone who has thoughts or feelings contrary to the accepted perspective is made to feel wrong or bad for having them. 2. Whatever the authority does is regarded as perfect or right. Thus behaviors that would be questioned in others are made to seem different and proper. 3. One trusts that the leader or others in the group know what’s best. 4. It is difficult to communicate with anyone not in the group. 5. One finds oneself defending actions of the leader (or other members) without having firsthand knowledge of what occurred. 6. At times one is confused and fearful without knowing why. This is a sign that doubts are being repressed."

Sound familiar?

[Freedom]

"Any of the following are strong indications of belonging to an authoritarian group: 1. No deviation from the party line is allowed. Anyone who has thoughts or feelings contrary to the accepted perspective is made to feel wrong or bad for having them. 2. Whatever the authority does is regarded as perfect or right. Thus behaviors that would be questioned in others are made to seem different and proper. 3. One trusts that the leader or others in the group know what’s best. 4. It is difficult to communicate with anyone not in the group. 5. One finds oneself defending actions of the leader (or other members) without having firsthand knowledge of what occurred. 6. At times one is confused and fearful without knowing why. This is a sign that doubts are being repressed."

Sound familiar?

The similarities are striking, but even more so is the fact that we once thought each of these factors to be unique to the LC. So many of the elements that were deemed to be unique to the LC were exactly the things that were the most abusive, and interestingly, the exact same things found in other abusive groups.

I've struggled with this a lot. We each took certain aberrant factors of the LC as a sort of 'proof' that the LC was the place to be. These are the very things that are common to abusive groups. The terminology differs, but the same elements are always at play.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Hope

Right after the meeting James Barber informed John So and I that WL was very upset. Francis Ball had tipped off James. WL did not want to have a quiet private talk but chose to dress the two of us down in the hall for all to see. As soon as the meeting was over, we two were marched to the front. Chairs were rearranged. John and I set by ourselves facing WL and about 50 brothers including James Barber who set behind WL in support of him. Scores of the attendance milled around the little court room and became an audience. WL never asked us to open our concerns but immediately launched into a tirade against us and issued a general warning that if we continued to question what the office and the ministry was doing we would cause a lot of damage to the saints and we would damage ourselves.

I can never forget the glare of despising we got from Ron Kangas as WL continued for about 10 minutes with the rebuke. Then he dismissed the meeting and we all went home. Was I ever in shock!!! So was John So. I was taking hospitality with Ned Sossaman. On the ride home he laughed and laughed. He said this regularly happened to the elders in Orange County.

Whatever happened to "God's humble bondslave" Witness Lee. . . it was a pretense, a sham, to be dropped if necessary. Other testimonies, for example by John Ingalls, Bill Mallon, and John So, corroborate this kind of autocratic, imperious leadership style, and treatment of underlings. The humble and self-effacing servant-of-all persona, who was "least of all the saints" and who "controlled no one", was just a public front, to sell books and fill conference chairs. It was a marketing ploy.

I am so glad I got out of the LC of Lee.