Guru Papers

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by aron

I think it's some degree of the nature of being a Guru, or Deputy God as LC called it, that only one person in the room can exhibit charisma, and the rest must devote themselves to promoting the Guru.

Actually, those others with charisma were perceived as rivals and excommunicated.

Those without charisma then grabbed an office they had no ability to fill.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Actually, those others with charisma were perceived as rivals and excommunicated.

Those without charisma then grabbed an office they had no ability to fill.

This points to something I've been appreciating recently, and noting on this forum. I've been repeatedly bringing up the resurrection of Jesus from the dead, because to me this establishes his "charisma",* or status, on a permanent basis. Jesus got crowds of followers initially because of his works and the transformative power of his teachings. His words brought light to what had been dark, and obscure, and uncertain. Suddenly, a great light shined. Suddenly, there was a bona fide Great Person, of whom it was said "his sandals I'm not worthy to untie". And the resurrection sealed all this special-ness, and made it permanent, unchangeable forever, "in this age and in the ages to come" (Eph 1:20,21; 2:7).

I note this because the guru-builders will use Jesus as a stepping-stone to their own claim to charisma. They point to the continuation of great leaders, and prophets... the lineage of charisma supposedly runs thus: Moses, Jesus, Peter, Paul, Luther, Darby, Nee, Lee [Chu, Dong...]… with others, it might be Moses, then Jesus, then Joseph Smith, then Brigham Young. Or, Moses, then Jesus, then Mohammed. Or, Moses then Jesus then Mary Baker Eddy, or then Elisabeth Claire Prophet, or Sun Myung Moon or Haile Selassie whomever the Last Prophet is deemed to be, the Last Holder of Charisma who ushers in the New Age..

My point is that Jesus stands alone. He stands above the flock because God raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand, and gave him a name above every name, both in this age and that which is to come. Witness Lee and Mary Baker Eddy and Brigham Young got mausoleums and reflecting pools and fountains. Jesus, in resurrection, walks in the midst of the seven golden lamp stands. He alone got the charisma, the Christ-hood. The rest of us have to wait for the Bema, and should presume nothing until that time, other than "I am the least of all."

Now it should be noted that Peter had 'charism' by associating with and leading the promotion of the resurrection of Jesus from the dead. Thousands gathered and were saved. Cripples and sick people laid in Peter's way that his shadow might pass over them. But NT writers Luke and Paul take pains to show that Peter (and James) do not have some permanent Untouchable status. And Peter even affirms this, and his connection with Jesus the Nazarene, by saying that leaders should lead by humility, service, and love, not by lording over the flock. Jesus alone has elevated status. Jesus alone is Lord. Everyone else has to wait for the Bema. Jesus alone has passed the veil. Anyone else who makes such presumptions, while yet in the flesh of sin, is deluded and is in danger of leading astray the elect.

If people say that I'm a deluded follower of Jesus I say, Yes, Amen. And I receive and join with the other deluded ones. Praise the Lord! But I name no other, as scripture says there's no other name given whereby we may be saved.

*Here I define 'charisma' in the religious sense, as in a divinely conferred status, authority, and power. Jesus by definition (Messiah, Christ, Lord, High Priest, King, Saviour) had all of this in spades.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by aron

Jesus got crowds of followers initially because of his works and the transformative power of his teachings. His words brought light to what had been dark, and obscure, and uncertain. Suddenly, a great light shined. Suddenly, there was a bona fide Great Person, of whom it was said "his sandals I'm not worthy to untie". And the resurrection sealed all this special-ness, and made it permanent, unchangeable forever, "in this age and in the ages to come" (Eph 1:20,21; 2:7).

I note this because the guru-builders will use Jesus as a stepping-stone to their own claim to charisma.

My point is that Jesus stands alone.

As further confirmation of aron's points here, remember what happened on the mountain, with Jesus, Moses, and Elijah? (Matthew 17)

[Weighingin]

Originally Posted by Ohio

As further confirmation of aron's points here, remember what happened on the mountain, with Jesus, Moses, and Elijah? (Matthew 17)

I recall how WL would talk about the principle of incarnation using where Paul said not I but the Lord and so on. So I thought that must apply to his speaking too. This was added to what we had been taught about Noah, deputy authority, questioning the MOTA is in the principle of questioning Moses and other teachings in which I thought I had the realization that to disagree was to disagree with God Himself.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Weighingin

I recall how WL would talk about the principle of incarnation using where Paul said not I but the Lord and so on. So I thought that must apply to his speaking too. This was added to what we had been taught about Noah, deputy authority, questioning the MOTA is in the principle of questioning Moses and other teachings in which I thought I had the realization that to disagree was to disagree with God Himself.

As I have often mentioned, Moses never was a type of the NT ministers, other than Christ Himself. In this regard Moses was absolutely unique.

Moses clearly stated that, "God will raise up a prophet from your midst like unto me." (Deut. 18.15-19)

Paul then makes it plainly clear that Jesus will build God's spiritual House. (Heb. 3.1-6) This corresponds with, "I will build My church." (Matt 16.18)

Thus to demand some accountability from some self-assumed MOTA, who is blatantly violating God's law, can never be applied to "questioning Moses."

It is dangerous, however, to dishonor our Heavenly "Moses" by questioning the authority of Jesus Christ and His word.

[Weighingin]

Originally Posted by Ohio

As I have often mentioned, Moses never was a type of the NT ministers, other than Christ Himself. In this regard Moses was absolutely unique.

Moses clearly stated that, "God will raise up a prophet from your midst like unto me." (Deut. 18.15-19)

Paul then makes it plainly clear that Jesus will build God's spiritual House. (Heb. 3.1-6) This corresponds with, "I will build My church." (Matt 16.18)

Thus to demand some accountability from some self-assumed MOTA, who is blatantly violating God's law, can never be applied to "questioning Moses."

It is dangerous, however, to dishonor our Heavenly "Moses" by questioning the authority of Jesus Christ and His word.

Yes, I've been trying to understand how I had gotten confused by these teachings when the word has been in front of me all of these years.
As you mentioned in Matt 17, "Hear Him." That's when Moses and Elijah were standing right next to Christ. Another contrast was John 17, law came through Moses, grace and reality through Jesus Christ.
Even though Moses representing God or being His deputy authority wasn't a wrong teaching, I've been trying to see how I misnderstood For many years that it applied to WL, the MOTA, and the NT age.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Weighingin

Yes, I've been trying to understand how I had gotten confused by these teachings when the word has been in front of me all of these years.
As you mentioned in Matt 17, "Hear Him." That's when Moses and Elijah were standing right next to Christ. Another contrast was John 17, law came through Moses, grace and reality through Jesus Christ.
Even though Moses representing God or being His deputy authority wasn't a wrong teaching, I've been trying to see how I misunderstood For many years that it applied to WL, the MOTA, and the NT age.

You and me both.

Both Nee and Lee used both Moses and Noah to promote their "deputy authority" heresy. It had little to do with owning up to the tremendous responsibilities that would entail, rather it was all about others submitting to their authority in the face of failure. Since both Mariam and Ham were both cursed for their actions, what better way to instill the "fear of God" in your followers? Since both Nee and Lee had lots of "dirt under their rugs," those deputy authority teachings would come in handy at times.

Who am I to talk about "dirt under my rug," as I have plenty? What I don't have, however, is the ability to silence my detractors with "fear curses." In the end though, isn't it better to repent today, rather than hide it until it's too late?