The Church in Sardis prefigures the Protestant Reformation?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

It explains Luther's views on a Christian's right to stand up and speak in a church meeting:

The Anabaptists believed it was every Christian’s right to stand up and speak in a church meeting. It was not solely the domain of the clergy. Luther was so opposed to this practice that he said it came from “the pit of hell” and those who were guilty of it should be put to death.

In addition, Luther felt that if the whole church publicly administered the Lord’s Supper it would be a “deplorable confusion.” To Luther’s mind, one person must take on this task—the Protestant pastor.

Evangelical, did you read what you just posted?

All of the evangelical church appreciates Martin Luther's ministry, but Nee/Lee distort history by claiming Luther was a MOTA (Minister of the Age) and they too are 20th century MOTA's in succession to Luther. How absurd is that, knowing what you now know about Luther?

The exaltation of Luther in the Recovery supersedes that of the entire body of Christ. I have been to Lutheran churches, and they speak less about Luther than Lee did. Lee used Luther to exalt himself as MOTA.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Evangelical, did you read what you just posted?

All of the evangelical church appreciates Martin Luther's ministry, but Nee/Lee distort history by claiming Luther was a MOTA (Minister of the Age) and they too are 20th century MOTA's in succession to Luther. How absurd is that, knowing what you now know about Luther?

The exaltation of Luther in the Recovery supersedes that of the entire body of Christ. I have been to Lutheran churches, and they speak less about Luther than Lee did. Lee used Luther to exalt himself as MOTA.

If the Recovery speaks more about the Reformers such as Luther than the Lutheran churches, then perhaps the Recovery is the true continuation of the Reformation .

What is the condition of the Reformation today? Probably Luther would turn in his grave if he knew about the plans for shared mass between Catholics and Lutherans. Not to mention the acceptance of gay marriage by the Lutheran Church of Norway and churches in Germany. For example, the Evangelical Church in Germany (German: Evangelische Kirche in Deutschland, abbreviated EKD) is a federation of twenty Lutheran, Reformed (Calvinist) and United (Prussian Union) Protestant regional churches and denominations:

In the year 2000, the Evangelical Church in Germany (EKD) passed the resolution Verantwortung und Verlässlichkeit stärken, in which same-gender partnerships are supported.[8] In November 2010, EKD passed a new right for LGBT ordination of homosexual ministers, who live in civil unions.[9] Most churches within the EKD allowed blessing of same-sex unions.[10]


If the Reformed churches weren't pandering to Catholics and the world during the Reformation, they seem to be doing it now.

I can't really blame 1689er for wanting to go back to 1689, since the Reformed churches today seem to be going against everything Luther and the Reformation represented. It's a shame really that these churches even bear Luther's name, I personally don't think he would stand for any of it. Luther might even stand with Lee and say how degraded they are.

The irony is that people like 1689er are holding fast to Confessionals and doctrines from 400 years ago, meanwhile the churches which have their origins in the Reformation and which bear their founder's names, are supporting the cause of homosexuals. It only shows that the Reformation today is virtually nonexistent.

[Ohio]

I see you changed your mind about what a heretic is.

Good idea, since acc. to your definition, W. Nee was also a "heretic" by forming a school of opinion and breaking away from first the Methodists and later the exclusive Brethren.

And btw don't be too hard on those Lutherans. Your own sordid history gives you little ground for criticism. Now what would your own leader think about now sharing the bed with the "Bible Answer Man?"

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I see you changed your mind about what a heretic is.

I never "changed my mind" about anything that is your straw person. Division is just one aspect of heresy and I am smart enough to know that division is not the only definition of heresy, otherwise I'd have to agree that Luther, Calvin and NEe were heretics by that definition wouldn't I. However I only presented one of a number of aspects and that is something which seems beyond your comprehension, that a person can post one aspect of a matter as necessary to prove a point. It does not mean I ignore all of the other aspects or claim that is the only definition of heresy.

However disagreement with the majority or disagreement with the Creeds/Confessions, as ancient as they may be, are never said to be heresies in the Bible.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

If the Recovery speaks more about the Reformers such as Luther than the Lutheran churches, then perhaps the Recovery is the true continuation of the Reformation .

What is the condition of the Reformation today?

I see you're the voice of Christian probity and rectitude. But where was that voice when Witness Lee installed admittedly 'unspiritual' son Philip as feudal lord? Where was that voice in the Young Galileans affair? Where was that or any other voice when Lee kept mauling scripture at whim?

The Lord's Recovery is a gulag archipelago, a spiritual mausoleum, a ring of vassal client states. I would take my faith elsewhere.

What got recovered here? Oriental feudalism? "We do what we are told", said Ray Graver, in transmitting Philip Lee's demands.

[aron]

Originally Posted by aron

Where was the voice of Christian reason when Lee mauled scripture at whim?

Depending on perceived need, Witness Lee could say that the center of the universe was either humanity, or the altar of the temple, or the throne of God, or the tree of life. His own logic trains would lead him hither and yon, and we were supposed to follow.

I say again, What got recovered, here?

There's a "paper recovery" of the items supposedly recovered in the LC - the "truths" - then there's the reality that members endured day by day. At best, the place is a perpetual spiritual kindergarten where people aren't allowed the room to breathe, to move, to grow, to find their destiny in Christ.

[Drake]

-1

Aron, I see you quoting yourself so allow me to chime in so you can engage in a real dialogue about these matters with someone other than just yourself.

"At best, the place is a perpetual spiritual kindergarten where people aren't allowed the room to breathe, to move, to grow, to find their destiny in Christ."

Fortunately we have you to enlighten, water and nourish us, provide fresh air, and guide us to find our destiny in Christ. From your posts I don't recognize any of those essentials in you or in your teachings but no doubt you do.

To my observation the victim/oppressor paradigm you live in demonstrates you are stuck. Really stuck. Perhaps being stuck prevents you from actually experiencing all the essentials you describe. I don't know for sure because I am not a psychiatrist or a psychologist. I just know that when you talk about forgiveness it rings hollow because you have not forgiven. Though you talk about growth I cannot find spiritual maturity in your expounding of scripture. You speak of freedom yet you appear to be the most bound. What destiny in Christ do you propose to lead others to? Is that destiny what the modern reformed churches promote today?

If you have found life, peace, and your destiny in Christ I am very happy for you. It just doesn't seem like it from what I read. Your description of the Lord's Recovery is, in so many ways, completely foreign.

Drake

[leastofthese]

Very interesting observation from Drake.

Matthew 7

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Drake

Aron, I see you quoting yourself so allow me to chime in so you can engage in a real dialogue about these matters with someone other than just yourself.

This post is typical "shoot the messenger" tactics from LSM operatives like Drake.

If LSM actually ministered Christ as life, peace, food, and fresh air leading to genuine spiritual maturity, then this forum would not need to exist. And, btw, where is Drake's ministry of Christ when wounded and hurting LC-members visit this forum seeking to understand LC craziness? Drake acts like the quack doctor who dismisses every patient with a curt "it's all in your head."

And Drake, old friend, where is the "real dialogue" you propose when posters address serious issues at LSM? Suddenly you vanish like a puff of cyber-smoke.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Ohio

where is the "real dialogue" you propose when posters address serious issues at LSM? Suddenly you vanish like a puff of cyber-smoke.

I mentioned the various "centers of the universe" promoted by Lee at various times, as examples of inconsistency and subjectivism. Whatever "the spirit" was leading to was the center of the universe at that time. No matter that it was different from last month's center of the universe, or last year's. And what's the reply from Drake? That I have a bad attitude.

How could Lee minister such inconsistent and obviously self-contradictory things, and never get called on it? Sounds like intimidation at work, to me. Fear.

"That's not the LC I know", says Drake.

Not much of a dialogue

Originally Posted by Drake

Fortunately we have you to enlighten, water and nourish us, provide fresh air, and guide us to find our destiny in Christ. From your posts I don't recognize any of those essentials in you or in your teachings but no doubt you do.

If I fobbed myself off as the end-all of the Christian experience - you know, the apostle of the age, the last spiritual giant, God's deputy, God's oracle - then your comment might have some merit. But I don't.

I'm just a little nobody who got caught in the local church meatgrinder and came out the other side. I know my comments don't resonate with you but they seem to with a few here who've tried to pick up the pieces and go on.

But thanks for boldly presenting the minority view. Your opinion counts, too, just like everyone else's.

Originally Posted by Drake

To my observation the victim/oppressor paradigm you live in demonstrates you are stuck. Really stuck. Perhaps being stuck prevents you from actually experiencing all the essentials you describe. I don't know for sure because I am not a psychiatrist or a psychologist. I just know that when you talk about forgiveness it rings hollow because you have not forgiven. Though you talk about growth I cannot find spiritual maturity in your expounding of scripture. You speak of freedom yet you appear to be the most bound. What destiny in Christ do you propose to lead others to? Is that destiny what the modern reformed churches promote today?

I am not an apologist for the modern reformed churches. But Lee's "christless" comment is probably more appropriate for his local churches than anyone else. I think I've explained why, in some detail.

Who gets to function in the local church of Lee? No one. Just recite the catechism from the HWMR. And if you want to "exercise your spirit", just shout the catechism from HWMR.

Anyone who tries to genuinely function, with a true revelation from God, and not a "ministry" derivative, is viewed with suspicion, as if they were "ambitious" or "drawing others to themselves". No, only Nee & Lee could do that.

And forgiveness - who have I forgiven? I dunno - who harmed me? I'm talking about bad ideas, here. Am I supposed to forgive a bad idea? No, I call it like it is. A bad idea.

Here's a good idea: "God loved the world so much that He sent His only begotten Son, that all who believe might not perish but have everlasting life" Good idea.

Here's a bad idea: "God sends out one apostle per age - one spiritual giant. And the last spiritual giant, Witness Lee, was the last MOTA, and now the age has turned." That's a bad idea - one of many, noted here on this forum. Sorry for calling it out. But that's what I see - a bad idea. How can I be nice to a bad idea? It's just not any good. It's harmful to the Christian polity, to the Christian journey. Please excuse my impoliteness. I wish there were a "nice" or "charitable" way to say, "Bad idea".

Originally Posted by Drake

If you have found life, peace, and your destiny in Christ I am very happy for you. It just doesn't seem like it from what I read. Your description of the Lord's Recovery is, in so many ways, completely foreign.

Drake

Of course you don't recognise your Lord's Recovery experience from my description. None of your posts thus far have indicated any opening in that direction. Why should it change, now? Am I supposed to be shocked and chagrined that you don't get it?

My life and peace is found in Jesus Christ alone. Not winning an argument online. I'm simply sharing what I've seen. I have my opinion, just like Witness Lee had his, and you have yours. I'm sharing my subjective impressions, just like Witness Lee did with his.

How come Lee got to give his opinion, and nobody else does?

[Evangelical]

In a couple of places Aron has brought up the matter of the centers of the universe. It only shows his lack of understanding of the matter rather than any lack of logic on Lee's part.

I can easily show it is not contradictory or inconsistent, it is very logical - Lee has only ever put forward Christ and the cross as the Center. Every other center mentioned is related to those aspects or could be considered the same from a symbolic point of view.

Christ, the cross and humankind is the main purpose and plan for everything God has done, does and will do in future (this is something they don't stress in Reformed Churches I'm sure, well, not the ones accepting gay marriage etc. I think some Reformed churches that are very Christ/cross centric might). It is in this sense that Lee used the phrase "Center of the Universe". If we think he is talking about the physical world or think there are multiple centers of the universe (as Aron has done) we won't get it. There are not many centers of the Universe, there is only one. There is only one Center - Christ crucified.

It might make it easier to see the logic behind the Center of the Universe if I break it down like this:

-Christ is the Center
-and moreso the cross because without the cross we cannot have Christ
-and life because Christ is life
-the altar because it symbolizes the cross
-the tree of life because it symbolizes Christ
-the throne of God because that is where Christ is
-humanity because Christ is a man. Humanity is also at the center of God's plan - the Earth is at the center because mankind is central to God's plan.

Now I understand that the center of the universe is where God and mankind meet. God and (perfect) mankind meet in the Person of Christ, but for us sinners, God and sinful mankind meet at the cross (altar). If we say Christ is the center without the cross then it doesn't have much practical application for us. That's why emphasis is on the cross/altar.

Astute observers will note that in Genesis 2:9 the Tree of Life is in the center of the Garden of Eden.

Logically, there is nothing wrong with Lee's "multiple centers" of the universe, if we understand there is only one Center - Christ crucified, and all the other "centers" Lee mentions are related to that.

Aron has said

"How could Lee minister such inconsistent and obviously self-contradictory things, and never get called on it? Sounds like intimidation at work, to me. Fear."

Of course the fault lies with Lee doesn't it, rather than Aron's lack of understanding? Well maybe everyone "gets it", except him.