The Church in Sardis prefigures the Protestant Reformation?

[aron]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Unlike many Protestants/Reformers who consider it a noble thing to hold to a particular Confession or Creed, the bible does not seem to place much importance on it.

The bible does consider it a noble thing to do a lot that the LC doesn't do.

"They asked me to remember the poor, which thing I was eager to do", said Paul. The FTTA trainer told us, "Don't waste your time", quote-unquote. Instead, go after the "good building material".

How is that not also Christless Protestantism, or Christless Post-Protestant Personality Cult, or whatever label we want to call it?

How did Lee get the temerity to re-write the Bible and put various labels on people and groups while avoiding them on his own?

With what measure you measure, you are measured. Only God comes out of this one unscathed. God and His Christ. The rest of us, while we are yet in the flesh of sin, would behoove ourselves to take the last place and not to presume a position of judgment of others.

Where is the love? I don't see it.

Now, Drake mentions that I also lack charity. Mea culpa. But you know what - I'm not presuming to be something. I'm just calling out someone who is.

"They have creeds - we have the subjective experience of Christ." Yes, so subjective that you pan scripture as fallen, mixed, and natural. So subjective that you dismiss the poor, the sick and the weak. &c.

[Drake]

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aron>"Now, Drake mentions that I also lack charity. Mea culpa. But you know what - I'm not presuming to be something. I'm just calling out someone who is."

Well, hold on there aron. Bitte, bitte.

I don't think you can ignore the principle of "mote in the eye" in judging others. We all have faults and if you knew me personally you would exhaust yourself listing mine. However, when you condemn the believers in the local churches in this forum for some shortcoming or fault you better know your own as relates to that. Judge with the judgement you would like to be judged with... because you probably will be.

For example, if you condemn others from the pulpit for drinking, smoking, and cussing but after the show go pour yourself a strong one, roll your own, and swear like a sailor then I think you would be in more danger of the judgement than had you not condemned others for the very infractions you also are guilty of. Or, if you condemn an FTTA trainer for not remembering the poor but you do nothing personally to help the poor then that too is an issue.

We judge things in life but how we pass judgement on others and fellow believers is important. To apply this back to this topic I have no hesitation before the Lord to condemn the reformed churches for their unbiblical embrace of the gay agenda. That is Christless. However, neither do I have the peace before the Lord to be aggressive or militant towards gay people though I am not gay. Some may not see the difference but it is pretty clear to me.

Drake

[aron]

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Drake,

Good advice, thanks. I'll receive it. Certainly applicable to us both. Not to mention the person who said he had the ministry of the age, and was deputy God.

To whom much is given, much is required.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by aron

In the portrayal of the New Jerusalem we see a throne, and a river bright as crystal proceeding out of the throne, and a tree of life growing along the river. These are distinct items...

I'm glad you made all these metaphors plain. And I agree with you.

Except : I took a stand against what was called The Flow of Oneness, brought by the lead elder from Anaheim. The flow of oneness didn't take the throne, river, and tree of life as a metaphor.

It was explained that, the river flows from Christ on the throne, carrying the authority of the throne, to, The Apostle on the earth, Witness Lee.

So you say, it's all metaphor, but Witness Lee took it as literal to establish himself as The MOTA.

Another Bible reference used to support The Flow of Oneness was :

Psa 133:1 A Song of degrees of David. Behold, how good and how pleasant it is for brethren to dwell together in unity!
Psa 133:2 It is like the precious ointment upon the head, that ran down upon the beard, even Aaron's beard: that went down to the skirts of his garments;

In this reference the precious ointment (the Holy Spirit) was poured upon the head, Witness Lee, then ran down the beard (the elders) and finally down to the garments (us little potato's).

I got the boot for disagreeing with The Flow of Oneness. The verses they used from Revelation and Psalms were not taken as metaphorical, but as literal, to established Witness Lee as the MOTA.

[aron]

Evangelical says a throne is just a chair and God doesn't need a chair - why, is God tired? No. So no chair, no throne. A throne is a metaphor, like tree, or river, or city.

Perhaps so. But I'd prefer to act as if there's a real, physical chair somewhere. Just like Jesus ate a real, physical fish after resurrecting from the dead.

This is why - it gives me a metaphorical peg on which to hang my metaphorical hat. A conceptual center, if you will. It makes me more resistant to charlatans and wordsmiths who come anong with their own metaphorical centers, like "flow of oneness".

Witness Lee gave us a new so-called center every other month. They all flowed out from one center - Witness Lee.

[Drake]

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Aron>"But I'd prefer to act as if there's a real, physical chair somewhere."


It's how the Lord conveys His thoughts and ideas to us. The Bible is filled with imagery to express some reality.

It's like looking at a picture of crashing waves on a beach and then actually being there where you hear the sounds, smell the salty air, feel the breeze, and watch the waves swell and roll.

The throne, the crystal river, the tree of life, the fruits, the street, the wall, etc, are the imagery of a reality for us to enter into.

Sometimes I feel Ike a kid in a theme park where the wonders never end.

Drake

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by aron

Evangelical says a throne is just a chair and God doesn't need a chair - why, is God tired? No. So no chair, no throne. A throne is a metaphor, like tree, or river, or city.

Perhaps so. But I'd prefer to act as if there's a real, physical chair somewhere. Just like Jesus ate a real, physical fish after resurrecting from the dead.

This is why - it gives me a metaphorical peg on which to hang my metaphorical hat. A conceptual center, if you will. It makes me more resistant to charlatans and wordsmiths who come anong with their own metaphorical centers, like "flow of oneness".

Witness Lee gave us a new so-called center every other month. They all flowed out from one center - Witness Lee.

Jesus ate a physical fish in a physical world ..thats believable. Is Heaven a physical place? Can physical things exist in heaven?

[A little brother]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Jesus ate a physical fish in a physical world ..thats believable. Is Heaven a physical place? Can physical things exist in heaven?

Isn't Jesus' resurrected body physical? Where is Jesus now?

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by aron

How did Lee get the temerity to re-write the Bible and put various labels on people and groups while avoiding them on his own?

Which of the Reformers did not do this? Because I think all Reformers, took liberty to "re-write" the Bible, and put various labels on other groups while avoiding them on their own. If Lee is no different to Luther, Calvin, King Henry, etc in this respect, why only blame Lee?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Which of the Reformers did not do this? Because I think all Reformers, took liberty to "re-write" the Bible, and put various labels on other groups while avoiding them on their own. If Lee is no different to Luther, Calvin, King Henry, etc in this respect, why only blame Lee?

No, no, no ... many of the reformers (Wycliffe, Tyndale, Huss, et. al.) were willing to die that the common plowboy could read God's word.

So ... your justification for Witness Lee is now King Henry VIII? The English king who went thru woman after woman just to get a son. And to think that WL ended up with sons like Phillip and Timothy.

I've heard it all!