Jezebel -- why we should know who she is.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Drake is right you have a tendency to revert to flawed arguments, misapplying Jezebel to the US government and then to Witness Lee.

If it is a flawed argument then it should be simple to destroy. (My references to the US Govt were moved to the Alt discussion, since I don't want to carry on there I do not want to respond to that, if you wish, bring those comments to the alt discussion). One has to wonder why it is so difficult for you or Drake to destroy these "flawed" arguments. You are the ones who revert to WL's old and tired interpretation of Rev 2&3. It is as though neither of you can read the Bible for yourself.

To me the key question for this website and for all of us who were in the Local church or who are still active participants with that sect is what think ye of Witness Lee? Is he a man of God who taught God's word faithfully, or is he a false teacher?

I do not think it is reasonable to have a third option. You can claim that he was a man of god, taught God's word faithfully, but like all men was a sinner.

Now I have considered these two options: imperfect man of God, or false teacher.

I cannot reconcile his pattern of abusive behavior for 40 years without repentance, without confession. Think of how abusive it was, he protected adulterers and philanderers who were abusing the children of God to the extent that he would destroy innocent people, slander them, libel them, ignoring crystal clear warnings in the Bible concerning his behavior, and disregarding the damage done to the Body of Christ. Max leaves, so what, JI leaves so what, John So leaves, so what. He is the one who did not discern the Body of Christ. He is the one who stumbled the little believers. I am unable to defend his actions and am forced to conclude he is a false prophet.

But, if you disagree, go ahead, I will listen to you explain in clear language, why my reasoning is flawed. I discuss these things on the website for a reason, to see if I have made a mistake or have missed something. The only ones to suggest that I have are you and Drake and yet you provide absolutely nothing persuasive. If anything you convince me not so much that I am right, but that others who I consider to have a more extreme view are right. I would like to think that the issue was primarily with Witness Lee, others feel that the entire LC is a cult. That was not my experience, but you are doing a good job of persuading me that it is more true than I would like to believe.

[Evangelical]

It is not WL's interpretation alone, the connection between Catholicism and Baal/Sun worship has long been recognized in Protestantism.

Why is it OK for you to equate the US government with Jezebel but it is not OK if I say the US is Sodom? Don't you know that homosexuality was part of Baal worship? So when you say the US government is Jezebel you are really saying it is Sodom plus other things. Yet you tried your best to argue that US was not Sodom when we had that discussion. I now realize it was because you thought it was Jezebel and not Sodom ,and not because you are ignorant of what is going on in the world.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

It is not WL's interpretation alone, the connection between Catholicism and Baal/Sun worship has long been recognized in Protestantism.

Why is it OK for you to equate the US government with Jezebel but it is not OK if I say the US is Sodom? Don't you know that homosexuality was part of Baal worship? So when you say the US government is Jezebel you are really saying it is Sodom plus other things. Yet you tried your best to argue that US was not Sodom when we had that discussion. I now realize it was because you thought it was Jezebel and not Sodom ,and not because you are ignorant of what is going on in the world.

When did I say it was not OK to equate the US with Sodom? I don't think anyone on this forum has denied this connection. What we have pointed out is that as a Christian who is in the world but not of the world you should expect this. Likewise, we have pointed out that the response, dictated by the Lord Jesus is to preach the gospel so that they might receive a new heart. You don't read what people actually write.

Also, I have not equated the US government with Jezebel, what I have done is equated using the US government in lawsuits by "Christians" against other Christians as something that Jezebel did. I have equated her getting the elders to accuse Naboth the Jezreelite of Blasphemy, stone him, and seize his vineyard to our present day practice of civil lawsuits for slander and libel.

It is fitting that her body becomes fertilizer in Jezreel.

[Drake]

ZNP)" Also, I have not equated the US government with Jezebel, ..."

Post #4.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Drake

ZNP)" Also, I have not equated the US government with Jezebel, ..."

Post #4.

Post #4 says that one item of what Jezebel did, hiring 850 prophets is what our government does.

It also says that human government makes ruling without God a science.

Both of these are true, but that does not equate them.

I gave 4 criteria, 4 key items that distinguish Jezebel in post #96

Hiring 850 prophets was not one of the four.

My point is that Jezebel brings the worldly practice into the church.

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by Drake

The Catholic Church cannot build the Body of Christ.

NO institute of man can, or ever will, build the Body of Christ. This is why it is so very important that ALL genuine born again believers resist, at all costs, participating in the initiation, continuation or proliferation of the institutes of man. There is little doubt that the Roman Catholic Church is the epitome of "institutionalized" Christianity.

So this begs the question: Why has the Local Church of Witness Lee followed the Roman Catholic church model and modus operandi in so many major categories? In leadership structure. In policies regulating movement publications. In the creation of a system of fear among the members.

In leadership structure. Witness Lee, at least for the last 20 years of his life, had become the supreme leader of the movement. "The One Minister with the One Ministry for the Age." "The Wise Master Builder". "The Commander in Chief". "The sole Apostle of the First Order". WHAT PART OF POPE DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND? Upon his death, Lee's published ministry became the Paper Pope. Although the Pope is no longer alive, his College of Cardinals, the self-titled "Blended Brothers", rule and reign in his stead, and most importantly, propagate and enforce The One Publication. Which brings us to the next aspect of the Roman Catholic church:

In policies regulating movement publications. The One Publication edict, - really nothing more and nothing less than a Papal Bull issued against those wanting to turn the movement back to making the Bible the One Publication. Furthermore, "The Ministry", AKA the teachings of and practices established by Witness Lee, serve as the Catechism of the Local Church(es). This wouldn't be such a problem, except for the fact that, just like the Roman Catholic Church, all the members are expected to imbibe every iota with the acceptance and reverence of the Word of God. This one dynamic alone has gotten the Local Church of Witness Lee labeled as a cult of Christianity more than anything else.

In the creation of fear among the members. Admittedly, this dynamic has lessened over the past couple of decades - probably because so many members have departed the movement and have gone on to lead perfectly godly, spiritually fulfilling and fruitful lives. This was is direct contradiction to the warnings of Witness Lee, and more recently, the provably antithetical cautionary claims of LSM president Benson Phillips:

“In any case, do not leave the Lord’s recovery. I can assure you that if you go away from the Lord’s recovery, you will have no way for the process of sanctification to go forward within you. Instead, you will just enter into a bankrupt situation. I know of no one who has left the Lord’s recovery and today is a great spiritual person on the earth. The sanctification process is carried out in the Lord’s recovery”
(The Ministry Magazine Vol. 8, No. 1 Page 189)

Originally Posted by Drake

There is a practical church life arrangement in the New Testament that is completely congruent with the ones in Ephesians. They are symbiotic. Define that to protect the oneness. Practice that and you keep in the oneness. Deviate that and you have divisions and confusion.

The "practical church life arrangement" has been a work in progress for about 2,000 years now. I hate to break the bad news to you my friend, but neither Nee nor Lee came close to cornering the market on such an arrangement. If they had, we wouldn't be discussing such things on this forum today. But alas, there is some valor in the effort, and for this their reward is in heaven. One of the hardest sayings of the Lord Jesus was "Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead".(Matt 8:22) If perhaps Nee and Lee did "define a practical church life arrangement" (and I think, in part, they did) they were never really able to get their followers to truly keep that arrangement. In fact, the years and the decades have declared that God has moved on. The "movement" of The Local Church(es) is no longer moving..and it hasn't been for a very long time.

No doubt, there is not much of a consolation for those who have reached for the best and have fallen short, especially when your intrepid leaders have not only fallen short, they have fallen hard. The dangers and damage are then compounded many fold when the followers of these men turn them into gurus, martyrs, One Apostles, Ministers of the Age, etc, etc.

[Cal]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

NO institute of men can, or ever will, build the Body of Christ. This is why it is so very important that ALL genuine born again believers resist, at all costs, participating in the initiation, continuation or proliferation of the institutes of man. There is little doubt that the Roman Catholic Church is the epitome of "institutionalized" Christianity.

While I agree with much of your post, UntoHim, I just don't agree with the sentiment that we should resist at all costs the institutes of man. Should we resist colleges, schools and hospitals? Perhaps you were just speaking of "religious" institutions. But even then what does that include? Bible colleges, seminaries, ministries, water distributors in Africa? Even the FTTA can be seen as an institute of men. So can Vacation Bible School. So can Local Church Discussions.

If we declare open war on "institutes of men" then nothing is safe. Anything can be categorized as an "institute of men" and anything can be categorized as a "work of God." Who knows for sure which is which? We can see at the extremes. But as I've said, most things don't exist at the extremes.

The problem is not that men build institutions. They always have and always will. And God actually uses some. The problem is the CLAIMS they make about their institutions in order to manipulate and hold onto members and support. Both the RCC and the LCM have claimed to be God's unique church. They are not the only ones to do this and they won't be the last. But this is where the real problem lies because this is infringing on the consciences of believers.

God gives us the freedom to follow our consciences, and if someone feels to start an "institution" who am I to say he or she is wrong? But when anyone starts to claim that their little corner of the CHURCH is the best corner or, worse, the only legitimate corner, then THAT'S when they've crossed the line as far as I'm concerned. That's when they have become a real problem.

And that's what the LCM has done, in spades, and that's why I speak out against them. If they drop their claims and their way of getting hooks into people's minds to control them, then I'll say "God bless you." Until then they are a threat not only to people, but the CHURCH in general.

This post can be viewed as my "manifesto" of why I post here.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

When did I say it was not OK to equate the US with Sodom? I don't think anyone on this forum has denied this connection. What we have pointed out is that as a Christian who is in the world but not of the world you should expect this. Likewise, we have pointed out that the response, dictated by the Lord Jesus is to preach the gospel so that they might receive a new heart. You don't read what people actually write.

Also, I have not equated the US government with Jezebel, what I have done is equated using the US government in lawsuits by "Christians" against other Christians as something that Jezebel did. I have equated her getting the elders to accuse Naboth the Jezreelite of Blasphemy, stone him, and seize his vineyard to our present day practice of civil lawsuits for slander and libel.

It is fitting that her body becomes fertilizer in Jezreel.

Don't you remember our discussions where you tried your darnedest to prove that the US was not Sodom? To you it was not Sodom unless there were fewer than 10 righteous people.

Now you are backtracking on what you said about the US Government and Jezebel in post #88 - you said "To me, Jezebel is the spirit and nature of the current worldly system."

I think the 850 prophets that ate at her table signifies the way we govern now. We have two kinds of "prophets", scientists and pollsters.

We bring in all kinds of experts with their charts, and tables, and predictions and prognostications, etc. We also have the political strategists, pollsters, and spin meisters.

What we don't have is a government according to our conscience. This kind of administration has been very convincingly compared to a psychopath.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Don't you remember our discussions where you tried your darnedest to prove that the US was not Sodom? To you it was not Sodom unless there were fewer than 10 righteous people.

No, but apparently you do, why don't you quote it for me or refer to the post #. Drake recently demonstrated he had misread what I said, and you also have the same penchant.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

No, but apparently you do, why don't you quote it for me or refer to the post #. Drake recently demonstrated he had misread what I said, and you also have the same penchant.

ZNPaaneah, that suggests an issue with the way you write, it is open to misinterpretation.

#546

http://localchurchdiscussions.com/vBulletin/showthread.php?p=51438

This is a great point, what really caused God's judgement to fall on Sodom was the lack of any righteous men. God had said that if there had been 10 he wouldn't have destroyed it.

Equating the US with Sodom could only be done if you could argue that in any given city we had less than 10 righteous people.

You were hesitant to equate the US with Sodom. Not as hesitant to call it Jezebel:

"To me, Jezebel is the spirit and nature of the current worldly system."

I am not saying the worldly system is good it is clearly bad. I am saying Jezebel normally has something to do with the people of God. I don't believe the worldly system is Jezebel is correct for that reason, even though the worldly system does exemplify many of the things Jezebel represents. I would say the worldly system is influenced by Jezebel through the Roman Catholic church. I would say Protestantism has been influenced by Jezebel to a limited extent (in as much as they accept the doctrines/practices of Catholicism). But I would not say the worldly system is Jezebel.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

ZNPaaneah, that suggests an issue with the way you write, it is open to misinterpretation.

#546

http://localchurchdiscussions.com/vBulletin/showthread.php?p=51438

This is a great point, what really caused God's judgement to fall on Sodom was the lack of any righteous men. God had said that if there had been 10 he wouldn't have destroyed it.

Equating the US with Sodom could only be done if you could argue that in any given city we had less than 10 righteous people.

Do you disagree with this?

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

ZNPaaneah, that suggests an issue with the way you write, it is open to misinterpretation.

#546

http://localchurchdiscussions.com/vBulletin/showthread.php?p=51438

This is a great point, what really caused God's judgement to fall on Sodom was the lack of any righteous men. God had said that if there had been 10 he wouldn't have destroyed it.

Equating the US with Sodom could only be done if you could argue that in any given city we had less than 10 righteous people.

You were hesitant to equate the US with Sodom. Not as hesitant to call it Jezebel:

"To me, Jezebel is the spirit and nature of the current worldly system."

I am not saying the worldly system is good it is clearly bad. I am saying Jezebel normally has something to do with the people of God. I don't believe the worldly system is Jezebel is correct for that reason, even though the worldly system does exemplify many of the things Jezebel represents. I would say the worldly system is influenced by Jezebel through the Roman Catholic church. I would say Protestantism has been influenced by Jezebel to a limited extent (in as much as they accept the doctrines/practices of Catholicism). But I would not say the worldly system is Jezebel.

Post 546 in which thread?

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

ZNPaaneah, that suggests an issue with the way you write, it is open to misinterpretation.

#546

http://localchurchdiscussions.com/vBulletin/showthread.php?p=51438

This is a great point, what really caused God's judgement to fall on Sodom was the lack of any righteous men. God had said that if there had been 10 he wouldn't have destroyed it.

Equating the US with Sodom could only be done if you could argue that in any given city we had less than 10 righteous people.

You were hesitant to equate the US with Sodom. Not as hesitant to call it Jezebel:

"To me, Jezebel is the spirit and nature of the current worldly system."

I am not saying the worldly system is good it is clearly bad. I am saying Jezebel normally has something to do with the people of God. I don't believe the worldly system is Jezebel is correct for that reason, even though the worldly system does exemplify many of the things Jezebel represents. I would say the worldly system is influenced by Jezebel through the Roman Catholic church. I would say Protestantism has been influenced by Jezebel to a limited extent (in as much as they accept the doctrines/practices of Catholicism). But I would not say the worldly system is Jezebel.

There is no "misinterpretation" with what I wrote concerning Sodom and the US. You disagree. That is not a misinterpretation.

You and Drake both have openly agreed with the interpretation that Jezebel includes the woman in Matt 13 who hid the leaven in the fine meal, and with the Great Prostitute, the Great Babylon in Rev 17. This is also what WL taught.

According to our point of view, there are many different countries, nations, and empires. But in the eyes of God, the entire human government from Nimrod to Antichrist is Babylon. This human government—Babylon—has always done three things: rebel against God, exalt man, and worship idols (Gen. 11:4, 9). To worship idols is actually to worship the devil who is behind the idols. Wherever we may go, we will see that human government rebels against God, exalts man, and worships idols. (Life-Study of Daniel, Chapter 4, Section 1)

How is this any different from what I said?

"The entire human government from Nimrod to Antichrist is Babylon" -- read Rev 2

Pergamon -- worldly church -- where Satan's throne is

Thyatira -- know the deep things of Satan.

Against the suffering church there was the synagogue of Satan (2:9); with the worldly church there was the throne of Satan (2:13); and within the apostate church there are “the deep things of satan.” The religion of the synagogue, the world under Satan's throne, and the philosophy of the satanic mysteries are all used by Satan to damage and corrupt the church. (Life-Study of Revelation, Chapter 13, Section 3)

The more you speak the less I think you actually know Witness Lee's ministry.