The Psalms are the word of Christ

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by aron

One reason I find much of CCM to be essentially maudlin treacle is that it's stuck in the first part. According to the CCM songwriter, Jesus is high up in heaven, and we're down here on earth, either waving our arms ecstatically in "worship" music, or we're confessing how poor and miserable and needy we are. The recent song posted on this site, with lyrics by Jeremy Camp, was exemplary of the genre.

While I generally agree with this statement, I would say CCM has made some very positive strides over the past 10-15 years. I was at the original Calvary Chapel in Orange County CA back in the early-mid 70s and witnessed the very beginnings of contemporary Christian music. Some of it was among the most shallow stuff I've ever heard. Of course today's CCM includes everything from remakes of the old hymns all the way to Christian Hip-Hop! There are quite a number of younger song writers/singers/musicians who are writing some very "theologically profound" lyrics. I happen to fellowship a church with the average age of early 30s, and the worship music could be considered as "contemporary". They sing a wide variety, with a pretty healthy mix of the older hymns (mostly remade with more of a contemporary melody/sound) and a lot of the newer things written by some of the newer artists. Sometimes the band gets a little loud for this old dude, but I have discovered quite a number of newer Christian artists through our worship service. I have posted a number of them on the "Listen Up" module on the home page.

As for this particular song, "Stranger to your holiness", by STEVE Camp (**Correction from JEREMY Camp, who is also a CCM artist, who coincidentally was born in 1978, the very year of STEVE Camp's first release of a CCM song. Steve and Jeremy are not related)...as for this particular song, Stranger to your holiness, Steve Camp wrote this song very early on in his career, over 30 years ago when he was only still in his 20s, so I think we can give him a pass for this one not being very theologically sound or complete.

Actually I posted this particular song in reaction to hearing the news about Tullian Tchividjian - yet another South Florida megachurch pastor to be caught in adultery and lose his church and substantial national ministry. Tchividjian is a grandson of Billy Graham, and is a self-confessed, highly tattooed former bad boy. His parents actually kicked him out of the house when he was only 16. Anyway, this was part of his testimony over the years. I forgot how I ran into Steve Camp's "Stranger to your holiness", but the opening line of "Look's like the boy's in trouble again" just struck me as incredibly relevant and timely to the situation with Tchividjian.

By the way, the teaching pastors/elders of my church just started a series on the Psalms. I think it's going to last at least 6 months. I try to keep you appraised on this tread.

[aron]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

While I generally agree with this statement, I would say CCM has made some very positive strides over the past 10-15 years. I was at the original Calvary Chapel in Orange County CA back in the early-mid 70s and witnessed the very beginnings of contemporary Christian music. Some of it was among the most shallow stuff I've ever heard. Of course today's CCM includes everything from remakes of the old hymns all the way to Christian Hip-Hop! There are quite a number of younger song writers/singers/musicians who are writing some very "theologically profound" lyrics.

For every person that dislikes a song, there may be someone who says, "I was in despair, and I heard this song and gave my life to Christ" or some such. Therefore one has to be careful not to be a despiser. And there is a lot of GREAT music out there. But still, the point was that a song, a testimony, a teaching, or a meeting should direct the focus towards Jesus Christ and not away from Him. When the focus of the song is on the song-writer (or his/her hypothetical protagonist) instead of Jesus Christ, then I'm not interested. Been there, done that. That was what was meant by "maudlin treacle" - we'll wallow in the fall of humanity, instead of putting it behind us and focusing, unyielding, on our Lord, Guiding Shepherd and High Priest.

Likewise, the focus of WL was too often on "the rich ministry" or "God's economy" or "The Glorious Church" (Question: if the Glorious Church was so glorious, why did Luther leave the RCC, or WN leave the Protestants?) or some other vision of his. In the LC the focus was always on so many things, added on to the gospel, which supposedly uplifted it but just ultimately distracted the hearer. For example, "Eating Jesus is the way!!" -- see how easily, yet another activity crowds in to our attention? Various flows, moves, and ways, and the storms that follow. All of them took our focus and attention away from our Savior.

Originally Posted by UntoHim

As for this particular song, "Stranger to your holiness", by STEVE Camp (**Correction from JEREMY Camp, who is also a CCM artist, who coincidentally was born in 1978, the very year of STEVE Camp's first release of a CCM song. Steve and Jeremy are not related)...as for this particular song, Stranger to your holiness, Steve Camp wrote this song very early on in his career, over 30 years ago when he was only still in his 20s, so I think we can give him a pass for this one not being very theologically sound or complete.

Whatever things I've been called over the years, a meticulous scholar wasn't one of them. I apologize for mixing them up. And as noted, perhaps many have been helped by their music. But I offered a subjective assessment of what a particular song was doing for me, which was nothing. And I tried to make it into a larger point, but probably painted too broadly.

Back to an earlier statement:

Originally Posted by aron

The gospel arguably has two parts. First is that we're fallen and mortal. And yes it is sad. Death impinges upon our every turn. The second part is the good part - God loved us so much that He sent His only begotten Son, in whom we might be restored to life and our Father's presence.

Remember where the Samaritan woman went around and declared to all that Jesus was the Christ? It was based on His accurate assessment of her true condition ("He told me everything that I have done") and His offer of an alternative. The people came to Jesus based on her testimony, but after, they believed because of the experience of meeting Jesus Himself. Her testimony was only valid to draw others to Jesus, not to distract them. Suppose after 3 days they had said, to paraphrase John 4:42, "We no longer believe because what you have said, but now we have seen and believe that Jesus is Lord and you're the seer of the age" (or, "we now have seen the ground of the church", or "we have seen God's economy", etc). Our testimony should ultimately cause people to forget us and our testimony, and turn completely and unequivocally to Jesus.

So I'd modify the statement: The gospel consists of two parts. First included our failure, and how Jesus came to meet us where we were. Second, that our testimony opens the door to the voice of the Shepherd Himself that ultimately meets the hearer, and our testimony then becomes superfluous. We're here to introduce people to Jesus Christ, and then we should be wise, like John the Baptist, and recede.

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Actually I posted this particular song in reaction to hearing the news about Tullian Tchividjian - yet another South Florida megachurch pastor to be caught in adultery and lose his church and substantial national ministry. Tchividjian is a grandson of Billy Graham, and is a self-confessed, highly tattooed former bad boy....I forgot how I ran into Steve Camp's "Stranger to your holiness", but the opening line of "Look's like the boy's in trouble again" just struck me as incredibly relevant and timely to the situation with Tchividjian.

I'm vaguely aware of the name. I'm sad that calamity has come, to him or to anyone. All of us are children of calamity, pelted by the failures of the world. In Jesus Christ alone there is hope. I do desire that our testimonies, our meetings, and our ministries, would all fade away at the brightness of His appearing.

And He is there in the word. The word testifies concerning Him; even He Himself is called "the Word of God." And His testimony is true: He is quite capable of leading us home. Everything He said to us came from the Father of lights.

[HERn]

"All of them took our focus and attention away from our Savior."

That dear bro Aron is the chief sin of the current blindeds running the LSM-LC franchise movement.

He is after all Jesus our Savior or Jesus our Lord. He's not Jesus the creator of gods economy, or Jesus the coordinator of the one new man, or Jesus of the lords recovery, or Jesus of the local churches.

[OBW]

Over many years, there has been some look-back to my upbringing in the Assemblies of God (Pentecostal and Arminian), noting what seemed to be an unusually large number of preachers who had to step down over moral issues. I know there have been a number of large non-AOG situations in recent years. But the AOG is a fairly small denomination, so not many mega-churches to look at. And the number still is somewhat large proportionately.

We always blamed it on a combination of the erroneous thought that having been “filled with the Holy Ghost” with all the typical Pentecostal baggage that entailed made you somehow immune to temptation, coupled with the idea that since you can lose your salvation anyway and just get it back, might as well “go with the sin” for a bit then repent.

Now other evangelical groups seem to be having the same problems. And it is more noticeable to the outside world because of the size of some of the particular churches involved, and the public profiles of the particular persons. And while the analysis is somewhat different, to me it is still almost the same. Just different in terminology.

Since we as evangelicals claim (rightly) that we are under grace, I believe that our tendency is to rely on that grace to cover our sins (which it does) rather than practice (exercise) ourselves to godliness (righteousness) and other steps which actually engage in the life that Jesus taught rather than just preach about the loving grace of God (which is true) that saves you even though you remain fallen and broken (which you do). So at some level, we come to believe that trying to do the “works” of being righteous, and of other kinds of works, like caring for the widow and orphan, to name a couple, we just assume that we will somehow become better because we read a lot of scripture and pray a lot, but don’t take any action to live like we do either of those things.

I know. Someone is going to say “There goes OBW again talking about obedience.” And they are right. If you can’t obey, why do we think that anyone should listen to our words that claim a Christ that changes lives. He is not changing ours. Well, may be our attitude toward spiritual things. But not our living. Maybe we don’t rob convenience stores. But are we noteworthy in our lives? Or are we still “just as I am” (or rather were since that was supposed to be at our salvation)?

Yes. David was a failure. But he also repented and took the consequences and at least mostly kept pursuing God. And if you think this is just about reading more scrolls and praying a lot, then I don’t think you understand David very well. He took action. And he actually repented for his failures. He didn’t just say that God would forgive him because of his lovingkindness. He asked for that lovingkindness to forgive him. He repented in sackcloth and ashes. And he wrote a couple of Psalms about it. Made an example of himself.

This is off-topic — at least sort of. But it is so prominent in the various public failings of the past few years. Yes, they step down from their ministries (well most of them do). But when I look at the people I know, both inside the LCM and outside in other parts of Christianity, the tendency of the “it’s just grace” crowd to take few steps to actually live righteously — at least in the areas they don’t consider imperatives. There is something seriously wrong with that theology. And a theology that assumes that once you pray some particular prayer you are simply saved forever seems to give us all a lot of opportunity to indulge the flesh because, as Paul admitted, where there is sin, grace abounds. But he noted that they should not sin just so that grace would abound. Why do we have to still be in that same place? Maybe we aren’t having inappropriate relationships. But what acts of unrighteousness do we allow ourselves? Disdain for others rather than loving them as ourselves? Driving like a bat out of hell and thinking that it is everyone else that are the jerks? (guilty at times)

Yes. The Samaritan woman could tell what she heard and get people to move. But if she is still living with the man who is not her husband in a few months, who is going to listen? How often do we presume that what we say is more important that what we do?

I continue to think there are good reasons for this forum to be here standing up to the nonsense that is the LCM. But I don’t think that my task is to continue that fight here. Might still do it elsewhere, especially if the opportunity for real, meaningful, live interaction with certain persons comes up. But my main concerns are moving elsewhere. I will probably peek in on occasion. And even post when it seems appropriate or worthwhile. No one has caused or asked me to “move on.” Just getting to a different place. After about 10 years on these forums, I think my lines have been read. My character is moving off the island. It might resurface on occasion. But it has moved away.

Enjoy.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by OBW

But my main concerns are moving elsewhere. I will probably peek in on occasion. And even post when it seems appropriate or worthwhile. No one has caused or asked me to “move on.” Just getting to a different place. After about 10 years on these forums, I think my lines have been read. My character is moving off the island. It might resurface on occasion. But it has moved away.

Enjoy.

You will be missed bro Mike.

And as I see it the Christian life isn't suppose to be going to Bible study after Bible study. Where's the Bible living studies?

[HERn]

Hi OBW, I don't really know you much, but I wish you all the best and thanks for your comments and prayers.

[aron]

Originally Posted by OBW

Over many years, there has been some look-back to my upbringing in the Assemblies of God (Pentecostal and Arminian), noting what seemed to be an unusually large number of preachers who had to step down over moral issues... We always blamed it on a combination of the erroneous thought that having been “filled with the Holy Ghost” with all the typical Pentecostal baggage that entailed made you somehow immune to temptation, coupled with the idea that since you can lose your salvation anyway and just get it back, might as well “go with the sin” for a bit then repent.

Now other evangelical groups seem to be having the same problems. And it is more noticeable to the outside world because of the size of some of the particular churches involved, and the public profiles of the particular persons. And while the analysis is somewhat different, to me it is still almost the same. Just different in terminology.

Since we as evangelicals claim (rightly) that we are under grace, I believe that our tendency is to rely on that grace to cover our sins (which it does) rather than practice (exercise) ourselves to godliness (righteousness) and other steps which actually engage in the life that Jesus taught rather than just preach about the loving grace of God (which is true) that saves you even though you remain fallen and broken (which you do). So at some level, we come to believe that trying to do the “works” of being righteous, and of other kinds of works, like caring for the widow and orphan, to name a couple, we just assume that we will somehow become better because we read a lot of scripture and pray a lot, but don’t take any action to live like we do either of those things.

A challenge for the new Christian believer is that things are not always what they seem to be, even in church. We hear of a God who hides Himself (Isa 45:15), and may come dressed in rags, to see how we'll behave; like the tv show "Undercover Bosses". "When I was sick you visited Me..." On the other hand, the enemy of God, Satan, will occasionally disguise himself as an angel of light (2 Cor 11:14), and insinuate into the fellowship. Thus, the new believer may reject the world, confess the Lord Jesus, come into the church, and be met with liars & thieves disguised as leaders, while God is sitting very quietly over in the corner. Not easy to navigate, but there it is. And here the Charismatic experience, while not invalid, contains danger, with its stress on sensory experience over hard truth. Just shout and yell and wave your arms and righteousness, among other problems, has been magically solved. Wrong - sorry Charlie. For one example, look at the Corinthians, whose "church life" full of charismatic experiences but also full of sin.

And some of that I see in the LC experience, looking back. Consider the scenario that WL found: after a half-century of war (WWI and WWII), people were exhausted with "progress". We had televisions but also nuclear war, and with the Korean conflict barely fading and the Vietnamese conflict emerging, with civil rights and women's rights and the environmental issues swirling, it was so easy to reject "old religion" and just "exercise your spirit on the local ground". So easy and simple. Just be one. Yell Bible verses and spiritual phrases at each other. Righteousness was either irrelevant, or solved by overwhelming grace, we thought; the newbie was vulnerable to this, being trusting that whatever "leaders" do in church is of God.

Lee could create his shibboleth "religion" and pretend that he was offering a new and shiny alternative. But the fact that he kept adding things to his "Jesus", and kept trying to fleece the parishioners with money-making schemes, and that as regards to righteousness he wasn't even qualified to be a church elder, gives flight to the myth that we were all "feasting on such a rich store".

Originally Posted by OBW

David was a failure. But he also repented and took the consequences and at least mostly kept pursuing God. And if you think this is just about reading more scrolls and praying a lot, then I don’t think you understand David very well. He took action. And he actually repented for his failures. He didn’t just say that God would forgive him because of his lovingkindness. He asked for that lovingkindness to forgive him. He repented in sackcloth and ashes. And he wrote a couple of Psalms about it. Made an example of himself.

The Psalms of repentance have a Great High Priest standing by to intervene. So they are not vain. Christ is here, waiting for our confession and acknowledgment. He is always living to intercede for us. So we don't have to pretend to be something we're not.

Originally Posted by OBW

After about 10 years on these forums, I think my lines have been read.

One of the worst internet forum sins, after being impolite, and thinking everyone else to be hopelessly wrong, is the habit of repeating oneself over and over. When the writer finally gets tired of writing the same things repeatedly, perhaps the reader is getting tired, too, or has been for a while. So I understand, and typically hide my repetitions in new phraseology, but the repetition is unfortunately still there.

So for the sake of a recently arrived reader, assuming there are any, my point in starting this thread was that the psalmist speaking of righteousness probably wasn't vain, natural, or fallen. Rather the psalmist was speaking of the irrevocable demands of the holy God, whose demands of righteousness were met for us by Jesus Christ. This is our faith, our hope, and our life; and yes this is our righteousness. Any minister who tries to dismiss the word of God as "low" or "fallen" and therefore irrelevant, probably went astray somewhere.