The Psalms are the word of Christ

[OBW]

Originally Posted by aron

It's a bit 'esoteric', as I'm deriving a theme from observed textual patterns in poetic imagery and its use in the NT, but the NT keeps referring to the OT prophecy as pertaining to Jesus' experiences, so I am as well. Obedience + Suffering + Death = Resurrection. Jonah shows a glimpse, and Jesus quotes that, but the Psalms provide the details.

Just read through this and something is bugging me. I agree that Jesus made reference to Jonah concerning being in the belly of the whale for 3 days. But for Jonah, the suffering/death metaphor is hardly useful as part of some formula because he did not obey, then suffer, then die (literally or figuratively) then resurrect. Instead, he disobeyed and suffered for it. That the worst part of that suffering was 3 days in the belly of a great fish, followed by preaching to Nineveh, does provide something to refer back to as foreshadow or prophecy concerning Christ does not make Jonah's experience completely like that of Christ.

If we are to use Jonah as the example, then it would be something like Disobedience (leads to) Suffering and Death (leads to) Resurrection (leads to) Obedience. If we insert "Repentance" between Death and Resurrection, it might look more like our history.

I have always liked the approach of preaching Christ from all of the Bible. But that does not mean that everything is directly linkable to Christ. Christ referred to Jonah in the fish for 3 days as a sign relating to him. But the rest of the account says more about us and how God will get what he desires despite us and our desires. Still good stuff, and also says something about Christ. But I surely cannot get Obedience + . . . = Resurrection from this account. Maybe that is not what you were suggesting and I just mixed two different things together that you did not intend.

[aron]

Originally Posted by OBW

Christ referred to Jonah in the fish for 3 days as a sign relating to him. But the rest of the account says more about us and how God will get what he desires despite us and our desires. Still good stuff, and also says something about Christ. But I surely cannot get Obedience + . . . = Resurrection from this account. Maybe that is not what you were suggesting and I just mixed two different things together that you did not intend.

Jonah prayed in the belly of the whale, that God could save him. That was obedience. God saved him. Jesus referred to Jonah's experience as what he would pass through.

In Psalm 16, David said God would keep him from the flesh-eating corruption of death. Peter quoted this on Pentecost as portraying Christ.

My contribution was to note the "nautical theme" of many Psalms passages, which otherwise were very similar to the one quoted by Peter in Acts 2, and repeated by Paul in Acts 13. Even one of them used the same phraseology. "All your waves and billows have gone over me". Someone is copying, here. And they have the consistent theme of Righteous Obedience + Suffering + Death = Resurrection.

So I'm saying that the theme of "resurrection" looms larger in the Psalms than Psalm 16. And the 'formula' I gave is from the Psalms, not from Jonah. But otherwise, they have striking parallels. And Jesus referenced Jonah, and Peter referenced Psalms. Pretty interesting, to me.

[Boxjobox]

I'll write this, and really do not want to get into a big theological debate, but only offer my view: WL's thing was the processed triune god. Reading and singing the psalms does not bring one into a thought that God is a processed trinity- in fact, quite the opposite. It brings one more into " Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ". WL had to belittle the psalms and twist them and explain them in his own mixed up theology because they contradicted his money making product which he sold under the LSM brand.

[JJ]

Originally Posted by Boxjobox

I'll write this, and really do not want to get into a big theological debate, but only offer my view: WL's thing was the processed triune god. Reading and singing the psalms does not bring one into a thought that God is a processed trinity- in fact, quite the opposite. It brings one more into " Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ". WL had to belittle the psalms and twist them and explain them in his own mixed up theology because they contradicted his money making product which he sold under the LSM brand.

Yes, indeed Boxjobox

I wanted to correct a post I had somewhere on these boards (forgot). The One Body Life event "What Does Ekklesia Look Like" is January 25th in Loomis near Sacramento, not this Saturday.

[Boxjobox]

Aron, sorry to disrupt your excellent post with my comment about WL. I have been enjoying your writings.
And thanks JJ for your note.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Boxjobox

Aron, sorry to disrupt your excellent post with my comment about WL. I have been enjoying your writings.

I agree with your point. WL couldn't get the Psalms to deliver value to his "Processed God" metric so he essentially dismissed them. He's not the first Protestant or post-Protestant to do so, but the grounds are weak.

~David was a sinner. Why then did Peter cite David's declaration in Psalm 16 in speaking on Christ's resurrection? Or why cite, "I come to do Your will, Oh God" etc? ~Heb 10:7; cf Psa 40:8. If all are sinners, and nobody can do God's will, why does the NT cite the verse? Answer: it was about Jesus. Duh.

~Violence and antagonism. In Ephesians Paul said, "We fight, just not against flesh and blood." Jesus conquered sin and death and Hades, and we celebrate his victory. David had nothing on Jesus. Demons cried out in fear when he walked in. "Oh! Jesus! Nazarene! What do we have to do with you! Have you come to destroy us?!"

Of course a new era came with Jesus. He was indeed the new Moses, the new Law-giver. But the pictures and types that support this Jesus are there, including his suffering the indignity of death on our behalf, and his being raised to glory. His obedience led directly to the Father's intervention and rescue - the pangs of death could not hold him. To me this is the central narrative in the Psalms. Everything else hinges on this one thing.

But WL had his "we're being processed to be baby gods" thing. And by being so self-focused, he missed a lot of Christ that is portrayed there.

[JJ]

Originally Posted by aron

I agree with your point. WL couldn't get the Psalms to deliver value to his "Processed God" metric so he essentially dismissed them. He's not the first Protestant or post-Protestant to do so, but the grounds are weak.

~David was a sinner. Why then did Peter cite David's declaration in Psalm 16 in speaking on Christ's resurrection? Or why cite, "I come to do Your will, Oh God" etc? ~Heb 10:7; cf Psa 40:8. If all are sinners, and nobody can do God's will, why does the NT cite the verse? Answer: it was about Jesus. Duh.

~Violence and antagonism. In Ephesians Paul said, "We fight, just not against flesh and blood." Jesus conquered sin and death and Hades, and we celebrate his victory. David had nothing on Jesus. Demons cried out in fear when he walked in. "Oh! Jesus! Nazarene! What do we have to do with you! Have you come to destroy us?!"

Of course a new era came with Jesus. He was indeed the new Moses, the new Law-giver. But the pictures and types that support this Jesus are there, including his suffering the indignity of death on our behalf, and his being raised to glory. His obedience led directly to the Father's intervention and rescue - the pangs of death could not hold him. To me this is the central narrative in the Psalms. Everything else hinges on this one thing.

But WL had his "we're being processed to be baby gods" thing. And by being so self-focused, he missed a lot of Christ that is portrayed there.

While reading 2 Timothy I came cross two verses that corroborate what you have been saying about The Psalms being about Jesus Christ our Lord, the son of David, raised from among the dead and that we should be holding to this teaching with the faith and love which are in Him.

https://biblehub.com/2_timothy/2-8.htm

https://biblehub.com/2_timothy/1-13.htm

It really is that simple.