The Psalms are the word of Christ

[aron]

Originally Posted by Boxjobox

Aron, sorry to disrupt your excellent post with my comment about WL. I have been enjoying your writings.

I agree with your point. WL couldn't get the Psalms to deliver value to his "Processed God" metric so he essentially dismissed them. He's not the first Protestant or post-Protestant to do so, but the grounds are weak.

~David was a sinner. Why then did Peter cite David's declaration in Psalm 16 in speaking on Christ's resurrection? Or why cite, "I come to do Your will, Oh God" etc? ~Heb 10:7; cf Psa 40:8. If all are sinners, and nobody can do God's will, why does the NT cite the verse? Answer: it was about Jesus. Duh.

~Violence and antagonism. In Ephesians Paul said, "We fight, just not against flesh and blood." Jesus conquered sin and death and Hades, and we celebrate his victory. David had nothing on Jesus. Demons cried out in fear when he walked in. "Oh! Jesus! Nazarene! What do we have to do with you! Have you come to destroy us?!"

Of course a new era came with Jesus. He was indeed the new Moses, the new Law-giver. But the pictures and types that support this Jesus are there, including his suffering the indignity of death on our behalf, and his being raised to glory. His obedience led directly to the Father's intervention and rescue - the pangs of death could not hold him. To me this is the central narrative in the Psalms. Everything else hinges on this one thing.

But WL had his "we're being processed to be baby gods" thing. And by being so self-focused, he missed a lot of Christ that is portrayed there.

[JJ]

Originally Posted by aron

I agree with your point. WL couldn't get the Psalms to deliver value to his "Processed God" metric so he essentially dismissed them. He's not the first Protestant or post-Protestant to do so, but the grounds are weak.

~David was a sinner. Why then did Peter cite David's declaration in Psalm 16 in speaking on Christ's resurrection? Or why cite, "I come to do Your will, Oh God" etc? ~Heb 10:7; cf Psa 40:8. If all are sinners, and nobody can do God's will, why does the NT cite the verse? Answer: it was about Jesus. Duh.

~Violence and antagonism. In Ephesians Paul said, "We fight, just not against flesh and blood." Jesus conquered sin and death and Hades, and we celebrate his victory. David had nothing on Jesus. Demons cried out in fear when he walked in. "Oh! Jesus! Nazarene! What do we have to do with you! Have you come to destroy us?!"

Of course a new era came with Jesus. He was indeed the new Moses, the new Law-giver. But the pictures and types that support this Jesus are there, including his suffering the indignity of death on our behalf, and his being raised to glory. His obedience led directly to the Father's intervention and rescue - the pangs of death could not hold him. To me this is the central narrative in the Psalms. Everything else hinges on this one thing.

But WL had his "we're being processed to be baby gods" thing. And by being so self-focused, he missed a lot of Christ that is portrayed there.

While reading 2 Timothy I came cross two verses that corroborate what you have been saying about The Psalms being about Jesus Christ our Lord, the son of David, raised from among the dead and that we should be holding to this teaching with the faith and love which are in Him.

https://biblehub.com/2_timothy/2-8.htm

https://biblehub.com/2_timothy/1-13.htm

It really is that simple.

[aron]

Originally Posted by JJ

While reading 2 Timothy I came cross two verses that corroborate what you have been saying about The Psalms being about Jesus Christ our Lord, the son of David, raised from among the dead and that we should be holding to this teaching with the faith and love which are in Him.

https://biblehub.com/2_timothy/2-8.htm

https://biblehub.com/2_timothy/1-13.htm

It really is that simple.

2 Timothy 2:8
Remember Jesus Christ, raised from the dead, descended from David. This is my gospel

Pretty simple.

Also I like,

Romans 1:1-4
Paul, a servant of Christ Jesus, called to be an apostle and set apart for the gospel of God— the gospel he promised beforehand through his prophets in the Holy Scriptures regarding his Son, who as to his earthly life was a descendant of David, and who through the Spirit of holiness was appointed the Son of God in power by his resurrection from the dead: Jesus Christ our Lord.

There's nothing wrong from teasing esotericism from abstruse readings of Greek and Hebrew clauses, or from comments made by some inter-testamental "Second Temple" source like the Qumran caves, or from early non-canonical Christian writings like the Shepherd of Hermas. But everything - everything - points to this gospel, this event. When we see the earthly, suffering Christ, descended from David, now raised to glory, we lose sight of everything else. Everything else is subsumed by this singular experiential reality. An informative phrase is used by John, who saw this One and simply dissolved his consciousness onto the floor (Rev 1:17). And remember, this was a close disciple who'd hung out with him for 3+ years!

Some may say the words "Processed Triune God" speak to this very thing, but my experience is, look at how quickly that encapsulating label became the vehicle for focusing on self, on applying this "Processed God" to our subjective and fickle sensory life, this abstract "Christ is everything" and "all-inclusive Christ" becoming a cipher manipulated by charlatans for personal gain.

And I got onto this riff on Psalm 3, on post #882, because I was trying to make the case that the Psalms are a proverbial mother-lode of imagery of the "buried" Christ. Abandoned, betrayed, shamed, persecuted, and given up for dead. David in a cave, with Absalom and the nobles on a warpath, wondering if he'd ever make it out. Or, Saul and others hunting him. Or the Philistines eyeing him with muttering distrust. Then deciding, "Well, God has all power. If he put me here, He can take me out again." The link with Jonah is there. I showed the verses that overlap.

I just feel like, if "this gospel" referenced in the cited NT verses above is interesting, then this poetic imagery might be as well. Again, it's somewhat of a subjective response and isn't truth per se, but much of our sharing in the 'ekklesia' is in this vein: as long as we don't force the issue we shouldn't be afraid to present such ruminations. And I do thank all our readers for the grace afforded me here.

[JJ]

Originally Posted by aron

2 Timothy 2:8
Remember Jesus Christ, raised from the dead, descended from David. This is my gospel

Pretty simple.

Also I like,

Romans 1:1-4
Paul, a servant of Christ Jesus, called to be an apostle and set apart for the gospel of God— the gospel he promised beforehand through his prophets in the Holy Scriptures regarding his Son, who as to his earthly life was a descendant of David, and who through the Spirit of holiness was appointed the Son of God in power by his resurrection from the dead: Jesus Christ our Lord.

There's nothing wrong from teasing esotericism from abstruse readings of Greek and Hebrew clauses, or from comments made by some inter-testamental "Second Temple" source like the Qumran caves, or from early non-canonical Christian writings like the Shepherd of Hermas. But everything - everything - points to this gospel, this event. When we see the earthly, suffering Christ, descended from David, now raised to glory, we lose sight of everything else. Everything else is subsumed by this singular experiential reality. An informative phrase is used by John, who saw this One and simply dissolved his consciousness onto the floor (Rev 1:17). And remember, this was a close disciple who'd hung out with him for 3+ years!

Some may say the words "Processed Triune God" speak to this very thing, but my experience is, look at how quickly that encapsulating label became the vehicle for focusing on self, on applying this "Processed God" to our subjective and fickle sensory life, this abstract "Christ is everything" and "all-inclusive Christ" becoming a cipher manipulated by charlatans for personal gain.

And I got onto this riff on Psalm 3, on post #882, because I was trying to make the case that the Psalms are a proverbial mother-lode of imagery of the "buried" Christ. Abandoned, betrayed, shamed, persecuted, and given up for dead. David in a cave, with Absalom and the nobles on a warpath, wondering if he'd ever make it out. Or, Saul and others hunting him. Or the Philistines eyeing him with muttering distrust. Then deciding, "Well, God has all power. If he put me here, He can take me out again." The link with Jonah is there. I showed the verses that overlap.

I just feel like, if "this gospel" referenced in the cited NT verses above is interesting, then this poetic imagery might be as well. Again, it's somewhat of a subjective response and isn't truth per se, but much of our sharing in the 'ekklesia' is in this vein: as long as we don't force the issue we shouldn't be afraid to present such ruminations. And I do thank all our readers for the grace afforded me here.

Indeed, great quote. If we get bored by this gospel it really has connected with us in a personal manner yet. When it does we really can’t stop speaking of this resurrected Jesus and his power to save, transform, and build up sinners in His love into a glorious assembly of Jews and gentiles that glorifies God, and Him alone. Praise Him.

Why not delve into 150 of the greatest poetic works designed for singing and pointing forth the coming son of David, son of God, the rightful king of Jews and gentiles knowing that Jesus fulfilled and fulfills them all to the glory of the Father forever and ever.

[Boxjobox]

Psalm 110:1-2

1The Lord said to my Lord,
“Sit at My right hand,
Till I make Your enemies Your footstool.”
2The Lord shall send the rod of Your strength out of Zion.
Rule in the midst of Your enemies!

The phrase "till I make your enemies your footstool" I think would be what is really "God's Economy". God raised up His anointed one, our Lord Jesus, and set him as head over all. Our Christian faith is that Jesus is the Christ, the son of the Living God, that he died for our sins, that God raised him from the dead, and gave his this highest honor of sitting at God's right hand, and that one day the Christ, Jesus will return. Of course, there is a lot more to the Christian faith, but I think this is the foundation- Its the foundation, the ground of the church from which all else is built up.

So what is this "till"? Paul addresses this in 1 Cor 15: 25-28

25For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. 26The last enemy that will be destroyed is death. 27For “He has put all things under His feet.” But when He says “all things are put under Him,” it is evident that He who put all things under Him is excepted. 28Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.

This does not bode well with a processed triune god phony concept of God's Economy. The theology WL sold had to discount the Psalms, and the saints singing and considering the Psalms because his LSM products did not align with the scripture.

[aron]

While talking someone frightened by the Coronavirus Pandemic, I told them, Watch Jesus... watch him, with fixation and utter intent. Don't look at anything else.

They replied, "I can't see him."

The issue is serious, pervasive, with real consequences. People are scared and alone, and they don't see Jesus. Their fear keeps them from seeing Jesus, and not seeing Jesus keeps them cut off from others, trapped in fear.

One passage of rescue is found in Hebrews 2. The author of Hebrews was likely not an original disciple, and had never met Jesus. “This salvation, which was first announced by the Lord, was confirmed to us by those who heard him.” ~Heb 2:3 (This suggests that the writer was not Paul, who strongly asserted that his revelation wasn’t second-hand, but direct [Gal 1:12].)

Now to the passage: “But we do see Jesus, who was made lower than the angels for a little while, now crowned with glory and honour because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.” ~Heb 2:9

Notice that the author says “we see Jesus”. “We” means all of us, writer and readers, and "see" is in the present tense. How? How do we see Jesus? The answer is in found in the surrounding text, which copiously quotes Psalms and Prophets. We see Jesus in Psalms, temporarily lower than the angels, suffering. We see Jesus in Psalms, persecuted, we see him dying in agony for our sins. We see him resurrected. We see him crowned with glory and honour, at the Father's right hand. We see Jesus.

There are a number of books on this kind of seeing, both on Psalms' reception in the NT in general and in individual NT books. One of my favourites has been by Gert Steyn, a professor of NT studies in the University of Pretoria. “Psalms and Hebrews: Studies in Reception” T&T Clark, 2012.

When you see Jesus, everything changes. Everything.

"And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son.” Zech 12:10, cf John 19:37

“No one has ascended into heaven except the One who descended from heaven—the Son of Man. Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness so the Son of Man must be lifted up, that everyone who believes in Him may have eternal life.” John 3:13,14, cf Num 21:8 “Then the LORD said to Moses, "Make a snake and mount it on a pole. When anyone who is bitten looks at it, he will live."

You have to see Jesus, to make it out of your current predicament Covid 19 or otherwise. That’s the way home to the Father in heaven. And it’s a way of peace. Once you see him, you have a peace that nothing can shake. Once you see (believe in), obey, and trust Jesus, no storm of life can shake you, no uncertainty or perilous circumstance can make your emotions jump. It’s the path of peace.

I’d like to conclude with two passages. Psalm 3 has David hiding in a cave, pursued by Saul and abandoned by his former associates. Verse 5 says, “I lie down and sleep; I wake again, because the LORD sustains me.” On this same regard, Jesus said, “I have the power to lay my life down, and the power to take it back up again. I have this authority because the Father gives it to me.” ~John 10:17,18

And Psalm 18:19 says, “He brought me out into the open; He rescued me because He delighted in me.” Like with companion piece, and neighbor Psalm 16, the text of Psalm 18 shows us the resurrection of Jesus because of the Father’s approval. And we know that the NT repeatedly emphasizes the Father’s delight in the Son. “This is My Beloved, in whom I delight. Hear him”. The Father's delight, approval, and rescue (resurrection) are strongly pervasive themes in the NT, and are foreshadowed repeatedly in David's rescue, from Saul, from the Philistines, from Absalom's rebellion etc etc.

Many on this forum are former prisoners from the Witness Lee Mind Control Programme and Guanxi Network, aka the Lord’s Recovery, aka the Local Church, aka Living Stream Ministry and aka Bibles for America. While under its strong thought control, we were kept from seeing Jesus. No, we were told, that’s not Jesus, just David the sinner presenting his "fallen human concepts" in the Psalms. One regularly sees these phrases in the footnotes, along with "mixed sentiments" and such.

Instead of seeing Jesus we saw money going into the Daystar Motorhome Company, aka Phosphorous and Overseas Christian Stewards, which funneled wealth to the Lee family network and those of his immediate peers. Nobody knows exactly how much went to whom because those who know don’t talk. But we know where the money went – into the Lee Network. Instead of Jesus, we got “the Office”, a euphemism for another of Lee’s sons, who repeatedly abused people. We got terms like “God’s humble bondslave” as a term for someone who never took direction from anyone, did whatever he wanted, and whose inspirations were supposedly tantamount to “God’s move”. And we got phrases like “a martyr who was poured out as a fragrant sacrificial offering” for someone who was repeatedly accused of sexual misconduct, not only by the government but by his own home church (!) and who when confronted didn’t deny (!), even knowing that many would be stumbled in their Christian walk. See Lily Hsu’s published account as an example of what his confession did to the church. It seems people who knew of Watchman Nee first-hand and second-hand didn’t hold him in such high regard, as those more distantly removed in time and space.

Now, to me those are our two choices: see the world, or see Jesus. The two options are mutually exclusive. You can’t have the one and the other. It’s an either/or predicament: there’s only one Way home to the Father, and it’s Jesus.

And we see Jesus. See the below quote, for example, from Psalm 110. Please note that the "Jesus quotes" are not merely limited to Psalm 2, 8, 110, and a few others. One merely has to seek, as I tried to present in the quotes from Psalm 3 and 18 above.

Originally Posted by Boxjobox

Psalm 110:1-2

1The Lord said to my Lord,
“Sit at My right hand,
Till I make Your enemies Your footstool.”
2The Lord shall send the rod of Your strength out of Zion.
Rule in the midst of Your enemies!

The phrase "till I make your enemies your footstool" I think would be what is really "God's Economy". God raised up His anointed one, our Lord Jesus, and set him as head over all. Our Christian faith is that Jesus is the Christ, the son of the Living God, that he died for our sins, that God raised him from the dead, and gave his this highest honor of sitting at God's right hand, and that one day the Christ, Jesus will return. Of course, there is a lot more to the Christian faith, but I think this is the foundation- Its the foundation, the ground of the church from which all else is built up.

So what is this "till"? Paul addresses this in 1 Cor 15: 25-28

25For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. 26The last enemy that will be destroyed is death. 27For “He has put all things under His feet.” But when He says “all things are put under Him,” it is evident that He who put all things under Him is excepted. 28Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.

This does not bode well with a processed triune god phony concept of God's Economy. The theology WL sold had to discount the Psalms, and the saints singing and considering the Psalms because his LSM products did not align with the scripture.

[Ohio]

Reading thru Psalms 88, it almost reads as the voice of the Messiah in Sheol 3 days and 3 nights.

• 3. My life is nigh unto Sheol
• 4. I am reckoned with those in the pit
• 5. Cast off among the dead, like the slain who lie in the grave
• 6. You laid me in the lowest pit, in dark places, in the deeps
• 7. Your wrath lies hard upon me ......

I looked at a bunch of commentaries, but none seemed to take this view, including the Life Studies.

Read it again with the thought that we are hearing the voice of Jesus from the grave. Pretty fascinating.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by aron

One passage of rescue is found in Hebrews 2. The author of Hebrews was likely not an original disciple, and had never met Jesus. “This salvation, which was first announced by the Lord, was confirmed to us by those who heard him.” ~Heb 2:3 (This suggests that the writer was not Paul, who strongly asserted that his revelation wasn’t second-hand, but direct [Gal 1:12].)

I agree this passage is a great rescue in order to see Jesus.

Concerning the authorship of Hebrews, a couple comments here. I don't see how v.2.3 and the authorship by Paul are mutually exclusive. Paul could have direct revelation of Jesus Christ, and yet still have confirmation from those who "heard Him," i.e. the disciples who were with Jesus in the flesh. Gal 2.2 verifies this. Even after 14 years of salvation, Paul went to Jerusalem "privately to them of reputation laying before them the gospel he proclaimed" just to confirm that he was not "running in vain." Some of the details here are recorded in Acts 15.

Furthermore, the scholars' contentions against the authorship of Paul have to do with the actual Greek text of the book of Hebrews. Scholars also say the Greek text matches the writings of Luke but dismiss him readily as unqualified. (Philip Schaff said, "Hebrews is written in purer Greek than any book of the NT, except those portions of Luke where he is independent of prior documents.")

This apparently insurmountable quandary of authorship is easily explained by asserting that Paul wrote the rough draft outline, and Luke the polished text. Were not Paul and Luke constant companions? After Paul was sent to Felix in Caesarea under house arrest, he and Luke had much time and burden to corroborate on this book. Perhaps it was finished in Rome.