The LCS Factor

[Matt Anderson]

Igzy,

I was asking Ohio, not Roger. I'm not practicing the art of argumentation for the sake of winning an argument on this thread. I am making an entreaty. As such, I do not expect to prove anything to anyone's satisfaction.

In the realm of proving something, I have already made plenty of headway regardless of whether anyone agrees with my personal conclusions or viewpoint. However, this wasn't and still isn't my goal.

Matt

[UntoHim]

Upon reviewing many of the posts in this thread, and considering what are the practical implications of idolatry in the Local Church movement, I was reminded of the Lord’s own words in Matthew 5:28
“but I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart”
(now don’t ask me why this verse all of the sudden popped into my silly mind…I guess I was thinking about how the Lord many times equated and connected one sin with another more serious sin – in this case he likened the simple act of looking with the very serious sin of adultery)

Originally, I went to check further on this word “committed”, and to my surprise, I found that the Lord Jesus used a certain Hebrew idiom here (translated “has committed adultery”). Above and beyond the obvious meaning, many sources give the following for this word “Moicheuō”
“A Hebrew idiom, the word is used of those who at a woman's solicitation are drawn away to idolatry, i.e. to the eating of things sacrificed to idols”

Now don’t get mad at me guys…I’m not the one who linked yet another sin to idolatry – that was done by the Lord Jesus himself and that was confirmed by several scholars of the biblical languages!

Look, most of us have been Christians and have been reading the Bible for many years. We know very well that every sin is not a sin of idolatry, and idolatry is not the basis of every evil in the Christian church or in the lives of most Christians. But we are not here discussing “most churches” or “most Christians” now are we?

My contention here would be very basic and very simple. (as if UntoHim is capable of more) Many, if not most, Local Churchers idolized the man Witness Lee. Many, if not most, idolized just about everything that came from this man’s mouth. Many, if not most, even idolized the “vision” that Lee and his co-workers so passionately and forcefully related to us day in and day out. Soon we found ourselves idolizing the religion of the Local Church that spring forth from this vision. Some of the teachings and practices of this religion were good and biblical, many were arguably harmful and unbiblical. The main point here would not be the percentage of good to bad or biblical to unbiblical, but that fact that the teachings and practices themselves were idolized.

Did we bow and worship the man Witness Lee? No, I never saw it. Did we literally bow down at the alter of the Life Studies and other speakings/writings of Nee and Lee? No, not literally. Did we climb to the top of a smoldering volcano and sacrifice our family members, spouses and children? No, I never saw it.

Now let me do some equating of my own and take us back to the sobering declaration of the Lord in Matthew 5:28… “but I say unto you that everyone who looks…has already committed..” – Sorry my dear brothers and sisters…we looked. Then we looked some more, then we looked some more. Now, from what I have seen and heard coming from the Local Church movement lately they are still looking...big time.

[YP0534]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Originally, I went to check further on this word “committed”, and to my surprise, I found that the Lord Jesus used a certain Hebrew idiom here (translated “has committed adultery”). Above and beyond the obvious meaning, many sources give the following for this word “Moicheuō”
“A Hebrew idiom, the word is used of those who at a woman's solicitation are drawn away to idolatry, i.e. to the eating of things sacrificed to idols”

Now don’t get mad at me guys…I’m not the one who linked yet another sin to idolatry – that was done by the Lord Jesus himself and that was confirmed by several scholars of the biblical languages!

Can you please cite those scholars?

I wasn't aware that there was a Hebrew idiom preserved here in the Greek New Testament but it certainly does warrant further investigation if true.

[UntoHim]

YP, I've got no problem with you trying to school me on references (I'll take Mr. Strong and Mr. Vine up against Thayer - none of them were around when the Lord Jesus spoke these words, nor were they around when Matthew wrote his gospel in biblical Greek) Besides, I already warned you that all the minutia surrounding the wider definition of "committed adultery" does not make or break the main contentions of my post.

If you want to say that the average Local Churcher does not "idolize" Witness Lee and his speaking, and that they are not now "idolizing" his ministry, and have not formed and virtually idolize a religious system built around this ministry, well then all I can say is that you are "out of the loop" when it comes to the Local Church of Witness Lee movement. Furthermore, simply pointing out that such things are happening within a group of wayward Christians is not "attacking" them as individuals.

I just attended a couple of the Labor Day "blending conference" meetings, at which a well known "blended brother" was the speaker. At the beginning of both of the meetings they "pray-read" part of the outline...that's right, NOT the holy Word of God...the outline...the mere words of a mere man...There was also a lot of exalting (I would say idolizing) of Witness Lee himself (as usual). There was also a lot of bragging and exalting (I would say idolizing) of the little sect of the Local Church of Witness Lee (as usual)

Again:

Originally Posted by UntoHim

...Soon we found ourselves idolizing the religion of the Local Church that spring forth from this vision. Some of the teachings and practices of this religion were good and biblical, many were arguably harmful and unbiblical. The main point here would not be the percentage of good to bad or biblical to unbiblical, but that fact that the teachings and practices themselves were idolized

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Matt

Igzy,

I was asking Ohio, not Roger. I'm not practicing the art of argumentation for the sake of winning an argument on this thread. I am making an entreaty. As such, I do not expect to prove anything to anyone's satisfaction.

In the realm of proving something, I have already made plenty of headway regardless of whether anyone agrees with my personal conclusions or viewpoint. However, this wasn't and still isn't my goal.

Matt

My point was whether you are trying to make a entreaty or are trying to prove something either way your reasoning is faulty. Buying into "the vision of the church" isn't idolatry, anymore than buying into Campus Crusade's vision of evangelizing American colleges is idolatry. They are both visions of Christian service based on the Bible. Just because people are zealous for them and emphasize them does not make them idols.

The main problem in the LC is not idolatry. The main problem is the pressure to conform based on a warped vision of authority. The pressure probably leads people to cheerlead "Christ and the Church" in an imbalanced way, because that is what the authoritry figures demand. But that doesn't make the cheerleading idolatry. The problem is much more complex than that. It's a system of psychological checks and barriers which convinces LCers that they have no choice but to (1) stay in the movement and (2) obey the leadership. What needs to be dismantled is that system which holds them there. I doubt many LCers stay in the movement just so they can hold onto idols.

[Matt Anderson]

Originally Posted by Igzy

My point was whether you are trying to make a entreaty or are trying to prove something either way your reasoning is faulty. Buying into "the vision of the church" isn't idolatry, anymore than buying into Campus Crusade's vision of evangelizing American colleges is idolatry. They are both visions of Christian service based on the Bible.

That's sounds reasonable enough if the analogy is an equivalency. It's not equivalent.

1. The "giving" of oneself to the "vision of the church" was far more than the what happens in Campus Crusade.
2. Campus Crusade has proven itself to be an organization with high integrity. They are not like the LC.

I think you've made the logical error of a false analogy.

Originally Posted by Igzy

The main problem in the LC is not idolatry. The main problem is the pressure to conform based on a warped vision of authority. The pressure probably leads people to cheerlead "Christ and the Church" in an imbalanced way, because that is what the authoritry figures demand. But that doesn't make the cheerleading idolatry. The problem is much more complex than that. It's a system of psychological checks and barriers which convinces LCers that they have no choice but to (1) stay in the movement and (2) obey the leadership. What needs to be dismantled is that system which holds them there. I doubt many LCers stay in the movement just so they can hold onto idols.

I'm not ranking the problems and I actually think that in almost all idolatrous systems there is a coupling of bad concepts and practices of authority with false teachings. They are not separate concerns.

When I have been in sin of a more serious and fundamental sort, I haven't been quick to acknowledge what I am doing or have done. I like to shape it into something other than what it is. Eventually, the Lord gets through. Thank the Lord.

Where do you find "psychological barriers" in the Bible? Or to what do you equate it in the word?

Matt

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Matt

Where do you find "psychological barriers" in the Bible? Or to what do you equate it in the word?

Matt

One scripture is 2 Cor 10.4-5

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Matt

That's sounds reasonable enough if the analogy is an equivalency. It's not equivalent.

1. The "giving" of oneself to the "vision of the church" was far more than the what happens in Campus Crusade.
2. Campus Crusade has proven itself to be an organization with high integrity. They are not like the LC.

I think you've made the logical error of a false analogy.

Matt,

Far more what? Are you saying more zealousness constitutes a difference in kind?

As to your point about integrity, I'm not talking about the intentions of leadership. I'm talking about the heart of the rank and file. Their giving themselves to the vision of the church is usually a matter of high integrity. They might be misled, but in general I don't recall their devotion to the vision of the church being motivated by a lack of integrity. Quite the opposite in fact, part of the problem is too much integrity of a somewhat naive kind.

I'm not ranking the problems and I actually think that in almost all idolatrous systems there is a coupling of bad concepts and practices of authority with false teachings. They are not separate concerns.

When I have been in sin of a more serious and fundamental sort, I haven't been quick to acknowledge what I am doing or have done. I like to shape it into something other than what it is. Eventually, the Lord gets through. Thank the Lord.

Where do you find "psychological barriers" in the Bible? Or to what do you equate it in the word?

Matt

You've heard of mind strongholds, right? The concept of barriers is the same. It's a lie in the mind that prevents the truth from setting someone free.

4 The weapons we fight with are not the weapons of the world. On the contrary, they have divine power to demolish strongholds. 5 We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ. 2 Corinthians 10:4-5

[Cal]

Matt, et al,

I've been thinking about this idolatry issue and here's the problem I have with it.

If there is idolatry in the LC system it's a symptom, not a root cause.

LCers don't think Lee is the minister of the age because they idolize him, they idolize him because they think he's the minister of the age. This may seem at first like an empty distinction, but I believe it is crucial.

Because of the dynamics of the LC view of authority and oneness, LCers generally believe what they are told to believe. They don't obey unquestioningly because they are idolaters, they do so because they believe in a false system of authority and oneness, and fear the consequences of resisting it. This warped system more or less pushes them into something that appears like idolatry, but this something is still a symptom of that mindset.

In fact, I think the LC adulation of Lee and the features of his ministry is in many cases a reaction somewhat similar to what's known as the Stockholm Syndrome, the phenomenon which occurs when hostages begin to show loyalty to their captors, even in the face of grave danger. When someone has immense power over a human being, the human mind tends to begin to give the person in power the benefit of the doubt, in order to make itself feel better about the situation it is in, and thus deal with it better. Better to be controlled by a saint than an ogre, and since the subordinate is controlled either way, the situation is much easier to swallow if the subordinate thinks of his controller as a saint. This is a "defense mechanism of identification"*, i.e the controlled identifies with the controller to achieve reassurance that he's not threatened.

Now some, (I'm thinking SC) are probably chortling in their glasses of milk right now, but I think I have a point. LCers are first taught that Lee is the minister of the age. Since they feel (due to their extreme set of beliefs regarding authority and oneness) that they have no choice in the matter, and since they cannot exist in their society without going along with this, it is much easier to embrace and even champion Lee's special standing than it is to truly think critically about it. So the idolizing, if it exists, is a symptom, a result of a mind trapped in a set of beliefs in which the only way to find wholeness is either to reject the beliefs outright or embrace them to the nth degree.

So Matt does has some points to make. But I think he is attacking a symptom, not a cause.

Igzy

* Wikipedia

[Suannehill]

Very good points by all.
As to idolatry being a symptom and not the cause...
If you will notice, most medication is for the "symptom" and not the cause. So, it is not wrong to treat a symptom, but we must not forget the cause...Because the symptoms will return.
Sue

[Matt Anderson]

Originally Posted by Igzy

Matt, et al,

If there is idolatry in the LC system it's a symptom, not a root cause.

Igzy,

I read your whole post, but I believe that you have made an error in reasoning in this one sentence.

Sin is the root cause. Idolatry is a sin as are other things.

Paul gives some indication that "covetousness" is a root cause of idolatry. Coveting is also a sin.

Can you share with me what you believe the root cause is in terms of sin as God defines it. Otherwise your shifting the target and possible moving to a symptomatic root cause that does not match what is in God's mind.

God is the standard, not our conceptions of things.

Your other thoughts about the root cause are shifting the focus away from sin. We have to be faithful (and careful) to look from God's point of view. Sometimes it is harder to understand things from His point of view, but His Word endures forever. These other concepts and issues that you bring forward do not endure forever.

To the best of my ability I am addressing root causes from God's point of view. The best objective reference I have for that is His Word.

Your introducing modern conceptions of men that are not built upon solid ground or a firm foundation. Sorry, but I have to call that out.

Matt

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Matt

I read your whole post, but I believe that you have made an error in reasoning in this one sentence. Sin is the root cause. Idolatry is a sin as are other things. Paul gives some indication that "covetousness" is a root cause of idolatry. Coveting is also a sin.

Can you share with me what you believe the root cause is in terms of sin as God defines it. Otherwise your shifting the target and possible moving to a symptomatic root cause that does not match what is in God's mind. God is the standard, not our conceptions of things.

Your other thoughts about the root cause are shifting the focus away from sin. We have to be faithful (and careful) to look from God's point of view. Sometimes it is harder to understand things from His point of view, but His Word endures forever. These other concepts and issues that you bring forward do not endure forever.

To the best of my ability I am addressing root causes from God's point of view. The best objective reference I have for that is His Word. Your introducing modern conceptions of men that are not built upon solid ground or a firm foundation. Sorry, but I have to call that out.

Let me just say ... in my view ... that this post elevates the poster as the one who alone can define "what is in God's mind," what are "modern human conceptions," what is "God's standard," and what is "God's point of view."

It is better for us to just present our views, with scripture if possible, than to tell others that we are defining God's way. Let the reader decide how much God "endorses" our posts. That sounds a little too much like the "ministry" we have left.

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Matt

Igzy,

I read your whole post, but I believe that you have made an error in reasoning in this one sentence.

Sin is the root cause. Idolatry is a sin as are other things.

Paul gives some indication that "covetousness" is a root cause of idolatry. Coveting is also a sin.

Can you share with me what you believe the root cause is in terms of sin as God defines it. Otherwise your shifting the target and possible moving to a symptomatic root cause that does not match what is in God's mind.

God is the standard, not our conceptions of things.

Your other thoughts about the root cause are shifting the focus away from sin. We have to be faithful (and careful) to look from God's point of view. Sometimes it is harder to understand things from His point of view, but His Word endures forever. These other concepts and issues that you bring forward do not endure forever.

To the best of my ability I am addressing root causes from God's point of view. The best objective reference I have for that is His Word.

Your introducing modern conceptions of men that are not built upon solid ground or a firm foundation. Sorry, but I have to call that out.

Matt

Matt,

It goes without saying that our sin nature is the source of all pathological human behavior. But specifically sinning is not necessarily the source of a problem. A person can suffer from the consequences of our sinful nature and the warped thinking it produces without having specifically sinned in the area they are being affected.

There is nothing modern about what I'm introducing. Since the fall, human nature has always been human nature. People behave the way they've always behaved because they have always been human.

Yes, our nature is affected by sin, and sin is the source of all pathological behavior. And Jesus Christ is the solution to sin. Yes, we know that. But simply saying "Jesus Christ is the solution for sin" or "you need to repent" may not be enough to get someone out of a destructive behavior pattern. People often need wisdom and counseling on the specifics of how human nature operates to avoid the pitfalls which accompany it.

For example, I'm sure you'd agree that understanding the differences between men and women is a key to marriage success. Would you argue that sharing such insights is "something modern" and therefore inadmissible to Christian fellowship? Proverbs if full of insights into human nature. It doesn't just say "don't sin." It gives insight into specific things to avoid and into how humans tend to react in certain situations. Knowing what to expect is a characteristic of wisdom.

The tendency to eventually identify with oppressors is an observable phenomenon which has happened over and over in history. It is not a theory. It's a characteristic of our fallen nature. This characteristic is, I believe, at work in the minds of some LCers. Bringing it to light is not out of bounds nor a side issue. Yes, sin is the ultimate source of this, but sinning may not be. A person can be innocent and still subject to the pitfalls of human nature.

[Toledo]

Originally Posted by Igzy

LCers don't think Lee is the minister of the age because they idolize him, they idolize him because they think he's the minister of the age.

Sorry, I must disagree. I never heard the expression "minister of the age" until WL's funeral (that's not to deny that it may have been used, I simply cannot recall either the phrase or the concept).

Even so, I did not idolize Brother Lee. I thought, and continue to think, that he was a terrific bible teacher.

Originally Posted by Igzy

Because of the dynamics of the LC view of authority and oneness, LCers generally believe what they are told to believe.

Again, sorry, I must disagree. I strongly tended to take WL's directions on the scripture, but I always tried to find out for myself how he proved his points. What I read from WL drove me to the bible, not to endless repetition of LSM phases.

I suppose what I am objecting to here is your term "LCers generally". The difficulty I have with many of the posts on this forum is that there is a common assumption that "LCers generally" conform to a certain mold. I am frankly astonished at many of the testimonies that I read here. Not that I do not accept them, but that I had not seen the like before. In the desire to lump all the local churches together and brand them all as equally evil and culpable, posters here tend to minimize or ignore significant differences that existed and still exist among the various local churches and regions. The seven churches in Revelation were all different -- Philadelphia was not Pergamos; Thyatira was not Laodicea.

Originally Posted by Igzy

They don't obey unquestioningly because they are idolaters, they do so because they believe in a false system of authority and oneness, and fear the consequences of resisting it.

1) I do not, nor have I ever, obeyed unquestioningly. Even as an infantry officer I never obeyed those in authority over me in such a way. Only lawful commands need be obeyed. Following an unlawful command makes me as guilty as the one giving it.

2) I do not believe the eldership is a "false system of authority". It is clear in the scriptures that there are to be elders appointed in every church, and that we are to obey them:

Obey them that have the rule over you and submit yourselves for they watch for your souls as they that must give account that they may do it with joy and not with grief for that is unprofitable for you. ~ Hebrews 13:17

However, I do not agree that there is any authority higher than that of the local elders. We do not submit to Anaheim nor to Cleveland or anywhere else.

[Matt Anderson]

Originally Posted by Toledo

1) I do not, nor have I ever, obeyed unquestioningly. Even as an infantry officer I never obeyed those in authority over me in such a way. Only lawful commands need be obeyed. Following an unlawful command makes me as guilty as the one giving it.

2) I do not believe the eldership is a "false system of authority". It is clear in the scriptures that there are to be elders appointed in every church, and that we are to obey them:

Obey them that have the rule over you and submit yourselves for they watch for your souls as they that must give account that they may do it with joy and not with grief for that is unprofitable for you. ~ Hebrews 13:17

However, I do not agree that there is any authority higher than that of the local elders. We do not submit to Anaheim nor to Cleveland or anywhere else.

Toledo,

I think you may already know this, but...

Be sure to make note of the point Hope brought out in regards to the word "obey" in this verse. Study it in the Greek. It means to "be persuaded". It applies when a believer is in sin and needs to be convinced of their error and change their behavior. It also applies when it comes to being persuaded of something related to the truth. It does not apply in the case of "lordship" in things that are optional. In those things, each believer's freedom to follow the Lord directly without the involvement of "elders" should be upheld (yea, even fiercely defended).

Elders (and I mean true elders) have to know their boundaries. They have to know how to support the pre-eminence of Christ in the lives of each believer. This includes being willing to suffer for the sake of one who is younger so that the Lord is established in their life.

It's not top-down leadership like the military. It's bottom-up like in the bottom of an ancient ship. The boat is moving in the right direction because of the labor of those who lead by example. The people on the deck of the ship have the freedom to move about and live their lives.

This is the kind of example Jesus set and taught for "leadership". This was/is different than "Leedership" as taught in the LC.

Matt

[Matt Anderson]

Originally Posted by Igzy

Matt,

Far more what? Are you saying more zealousness constitutes a difference in kind?

As to your point about integrity, I'm not talking about the intentions of leadership. I'm talking about the heart of the rank and file. Their giving themselves to the vision of the church is usually a matter of high integrity. They might be misled, but in general I don't recall their devotion to the vision of the church being motivated by a lack of integrity. Quite the opposite in fact, part of the problem is too much integrity of a somewhat naive kind.

This is correct with one exception. Let's take Paul as the example. He was the most zealous Jew. He put his heart wholly on what he believed to be true. Judaism. It led him to be party to the murder of Stephen.

Once Paul was converted he became a most zealous Christian. This characteristic of Paul's was still there. What was different?

Truth vs. Deception. Before his conversion his zeal was used in ignorance. After his conversion he began to use his zeal in coming to a full knowledge of God through Christ Jesus.

What did Paul do when he realized he was deceived? He repented and went out and searched the scriptures to dig down on the truth.

The same is true with those of us who are zealous. We have to add another one of Paul's concepts here. The flesh versus the spirit. Many chased after spiritual things "in the flesh". We see that outcome today in many LSM/LC's. In their pride they cling to it. We also see those who could not continue and fell out of the LC's. They passed through a kind of "death", but God was faithful to "resurrect" them back to life. Now it is time to purge out the leaven.

My point here is that misguided zealotry is very serious. We cannot look at the heart of the rank and file as an indicator. We have to observe the deeds. Murder is murder. Paul knew it. He was chief among Jews, but the least among christians. Why? Because he had been party to one of the most heinous sins.

Paul's response to misguided zeal was repentance, not defensiveness.

Originally Posted by Igzy

You've heard of mind strongholds, right? The concept of barriers is the same. It's a lie in the mind that prevents the truth from setting someone free.

4 The weapons we fight with are not the weapons of the world. On the contrary, they have divine power to demolish strongholds. 5 We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ. 2 Corinthians 10:4-5

Yes, I have heard of "mind strongholds". What is the weapon against these strongholds? Truth.

The truth is that idolatry (even systematic idolatry) and it's impact on all participants in the LC is one of the factual elements of truth that must be confronted. There were few, if any, that did not give themselves (in ignorance) to something that was idolatrous. Our ignorance does not protect us from the consequences of our sin.

There are attempts being made to say, "let's not lose the positive things" of the LC. The fact is that each person (which includes everyone on this forum that I know of) has held onto Christ. He has been faithful to you. This is the positive thing. He has set many of you in a family of believers in your respective locations after you were lost. We have fellowship with one another. This means we have not lost the positive.

After being faithful to purge out all of the leaven, then let's talk about the "positives". I take this approach because this is the approach God takes. My life and my testimony stand witness that the leaven needs to be purged before you begin to praise yourself for your involvements in a regime that was leavened by the Enemy and whose practices were formulated in hell.

Matt

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Matt

After being faithful to purge out all of the leaven, then let's talk about the "positives".

Matt,

I encourage you to read the last chapter of "The Torch of the Testimony" by John Kennedy, a book your mother has recommended. There Kennedy makes the very important point that the testimony of the Church is mainly a testimony of positive truth, not a testimony of exposing evil.

As I've said before, this is one of the problems of a forum such as this. It tends to get us on the track of exposing evil. Our main testimony should be to the Person of Christ. That should be our focus.

I'm sure you have encountered self-appointed "error exposing" ministries on the Internet. Don't they seem a bit contentious and weird to you? Once one starts to think one's calling is to expose every error (as one sees it) one has gotten off track. Our main focus should be to bring people to Christ. Yes, we sometimes reprove, but reproving shouldn't be the meat of our ministry.

Besides, I doubt all the leaven is purged out of your or anyone else's life. But we still have to get along as best we can. We don't wait to be perfect before we the praise the Lord.

[SpeakersCorner]

It's been interesting to me to watch the normal LC detractors rise up against Matt in his claim that that LC is systemically idolatrous. I agree with those who are arguing against Matt's thesis, but I actually think Matt has a legitimate point. That point is that there was an element of idolizing Lee in the LC from as far back as I can remember. I recall a brother telling me in 1975 that W. Lee had a color TV ... just for watching the news. This was shocking since the saints around me at the time had cast out television. So here was a brother showing me just how above it all Lee was, having an evil TV but using it in a spiritual way.

I hated that kind of Lee rationalization then and I hate it now.

I also recall how I myself used to begin so many testimonies with, "Brother Lee said ..." I did that to give honest credit to my source, but it got so bad I was called on it by a sometimes attender of our meetings.

I recall how when Lee died, I received a tape from an Anaheim meeting in which saints came to the mike one by one and told glowing stories of him, one of them saying something like, "And just before he died his face shone like that of an angel." I almost vomited when I heard that.

So, yes, there was an element -- a strong element -- of Lee-dolatry in the Lc and I was party to it.

But here's where I differ with Matt: it wasn't displacing Christ. During my most fervent days in the "recovery" I found myself in the Word more, musing on Christ more, praying more, preaching the gospel more than any other time in my life. Lee was a servant who pointed me to Christ. My mistake -- and that of many others -- was to overly embrace this servant much as someone hugs the man who hands him the Publishers Clearinghouse Sweepstake check.

I have now put away that small idol. I still appreciate and respect the ministry of Witness Lee very much but I no longer quote him incessantly, no longer think he was just about 1 helium molecule away from float-off-into-heaven rapture. He was a man, flawed like all of us, who had a ministry which pointed people to Christ.

Matt is wrong to spend so much time trying to diminish this man.


SC

[Thankful Jane]

Originally Posted by Igzy

Matt,

I encourage you to read the last chapter of "The Torch of the Testimony" by John Kennedy, a book your mother has recommended. There Kennedy makes the very important point that the testimony of the Church is mainly a testimony of positive truth, not a testimony of exposing evil.

As I've said before, this is one of the problems of a forum such as this. It tends to get us on the track of exposing evil. Our main testimony should be to the Person of Christ. That should be our focus.

I'm sure you have encountered self-appointed "error exposing" ministries on the Internet. Don't they seem a bit contentious and weird to you? Once one starts to think one's calling is to expose every error (as one sees it) one has gotten off track. Our main focus should be to bring people to Christ. Yes, we sometimes reprove, but reproving shouldn't be the meat of our ministry.

Besides, I doubt all the leaven is purged out of your or anyone else's life. But we still have to get along as best we can. We don't wait to be perfect before we the praise the Lord.

Dear Igzy,

Just a quick note before I'm gone for much of the day. The testimony of the church to the world is a "positive" one preaching and lifting up Christ. However, if there is evil (leaven) among believers, it must be purged out or there will be no testimony to the world of who He is. He is holy. The lump must be also. Purging out leaven is not one person's job, but all of ours. God will hold us all responsible for leaven in our midst. We all should be looking at the scriptures and measuring our beliefs by them. He gave us the capacity and the tools to do this.

The Bible refutes a system of hierarchy that lords it over Gods people. It also refutes the idea of our submitting to dark authority. It refutes the idea of one man's ministry being "the" ministry all should follow. It also condemns establishing a oneness definition that is smaller than the whole Body of Christ which excludes real believers. These things are leaven.

We participated to varying degrees in this leaven while participating in the LC. The changes that occurred in our hearts' attitude as a result of being involved in all these things do not evaporate somehow. Our heart is healed as we purge them out of ourselves. We need to let God expose every remnant in us of thinking and practice that came from such leaven. We need to help each other do this also.

Thankful Jane

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Igzy

The main problem in the LC is not idolatry. The main problem is the pressure to conform based on a warped vision of authority. The pressure probably leads people to cheerlead "Christ and the Church" in an imbalanced way

Igzy, I sure agree with you here.

And to continue your thought ... much of the problem developed over time using a corruption of semantics.

Originally, when I thought of "Christ and the church," my heart fell in love with the Spirit living in the other believers. That was very attractive. That was very Biblical. And that was worth getting excited about! And I did ... and, yes ... maybe I was far too radical for this great "ideal." (Notice I did not say "vision," because that's now a "bad" word. )

Eventually, "Christ and the church" became no more just the brothers around me, but those brothers in the ministry -- what are they doing and saying. As I have stated before, this change in Ohio occurred dramatically circa 1985. That's not to say there were no personal leadership issues before that -- I have a number of complaints too -- very serious ones -- which could all be summarized as "lording it over" the flock.

As time progressed, our vocabulary changed, not so much in the words themselves, but in their meanings -- semantics, a corruption of semantics. Words had "loaded" meanings. We had one definition for "insiders" and one definition for "outsiders." I for one just got tired of all the "word games." A notable example was the scope of LSM -- for outsiders it was just a publisher, but for insiders 'twas a whole nuther story. I think Apostle Paul confronted these same word games and in frustration declared "let your yes be yes and your no be no."

Words are a great way to manipulate people. Whether it be "oneness" or "the body," LSM has corrupted the meanings with the purpose of controlling churches and saints. The BB's have all become "Word-Smiths" -- masters of word meanings. Any kind of positive blessing which LSM once provided has long been gone.

This is part of the reason why, when we discuss the topic of abuse, there are so many "agreers," and when we talk idolatry, there are so many "disagreers."