The LCS Factor

[Matt Anderson]

Originally Posted by Igzy

Matt,

Far more what? Are you saying more zealousness constitutes a difference in kind?

As to your point about integrity, I'm not talking about the intentions of leadership. I'm talking about the heart of the rank and file. Their giving themselves to the vision of the church is usually a matter of high integrity. They might be misled, but in general I don't recall their devotion to the vision of the church being motivated by a lack of integrity. Quite the opposite in fact, part of the problem is too much integrity of a somewhat naive kind.

This is correct with one exception. Let's take Paul as the example. He was the most zealous Jew. He put his heart wholly on what he believed to be true. Judaism. It led him to be party to the murder of Stephen.

Once Paul was converted he became a most zealous Christian. This characteristic of Paul's was still there. What was different?

Truth vs. Deception. Before his conversion his zeal was used in ignorance. After his conversion he began to use his zeal in coming to a full knowledge of God through Christ Jesus.

What did Paul do when he realized he was deceived? He repented and went out and searched the scriptures to dig down on the truth.

The same is true with those of us who are zealous. We have to add another one of Paul's concepts here. The flesh versus the spirit. Many chased after spiritual things "in the flesh". We see that outcome today in many LSM/LC's. In their pride they cling to it. We also see those who could not continue and fell out of the LC's. They passed through a kind of "death", but God was faithful to "resurrect" them back to life. Now it is time to purge out the leaven.

My point here is that misguided zealotry is very serious. We cannot look at the heart of the rank and file as an indicator. We have to observe the deeds. Murder is murder. Paul knew it. He was chief among Jews, but the least among christians. Why? Because he had been party to one of the most heinous sins.

Paul's response to misguided zeal was repentance, not defensiveness.

Originally Posted by Igzy

You've heard of mind strongholds, right? The concept of barriers is the same. It's a lie in the mind that prevents the truth from setting someone free.

4 The weapons we fight with are not the weapons of the world. On the contrary, they have divine power to demolish strongholds. 5 We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ. 2 Corinthians 10:4-5

Yes, I have heard of "mind strongholds". What is the weapon against these strongholds? Truth.

The truth is that idolatry (even systematic idolatry) and it's impact on all participants in the LC is one of the factual elements of truth that must be confronted. There were few, if any, that did not give themselves (in ignorance) to something that was idolatrous. Our ignorance does not protect us from the consequences of our sin.

There are attempts being made to say, "let's not lose the positive things" of the LC. The fact is that each person (which includes everyone on this forum that I know of) has held onto Christ. He has been faithful to you. This is the positive thing. He has set many of you in a family of believers in your respective locations after you were lost. We have fellowship with one another. This means we have not lost the positive.

After being faithful to purge out all of the leaven, then let's talk about the "positives". I take this approach because this is the approach God takes. My life and my testimony stand witness that the leaven needs to be purged before you begin to praise yourself for your involvements in a regime that was leavened by the Enemy and whose practices were formulated in hell.

Matt

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Matt

After being faithful to purge out all of the leaven, then let's talk about the "positives".

Matt,

I encourage you to read the last chapter of "The Torch of the Testimony" by John Kennedy, a book your mother has recommended. There Kennedy makes the very important point that the testimony of the Church is mainly a testimony of positive truth, not a testimony of exposing evil.

As I've said before, this is one of the problems of a forum such as this. It tends to get us on the track of exposing evil. Our main testimony should be to the Person of Christ. That should be our focus.

I'm sure you have encountered self-appointed "error exposing" ministries on the Internet. Don't they seem a bit contentious and weird to you? Once one starts to think one's calling is to expose every error (as one sees it) one has gotten off track. Our main focus should be to bring people to Christ. Yes, we sometimes reprove, but reproving shouldn't be the meat of our ministry.

Besides, I doubt all the leaven is purged out of your or anyone else's life. But we still have to get along as best we can. We don't wait to be perfect before we the praise the Lord.

[SpeakersCorner]

It's been interesting to me to watch the normal LC detractors rise up against Matt in his claim that that LC is systemically idolatrous. I agree with those who are arguing against Matt's thesis, but I actually think Matt has a legitimate point. That point is that there was an element of idolizing Lee in the LC from as far back as I can remember. I recall a brother telling me in 1975 that W. Lee had a color TV ... just for watching the news. This was shocking since the saints around me at the time had cast out television. So here was a brother showing me just how above it all Lee was, having an evil TV but using it in a spiritual way.

I hated that kind of Lee rationalization then and I hate it now.

I also recall how I myself used to begin so many testimonies with, "Brother Lee said ..." I did that to give honest credit to my source, but it got so bad I was called on it by a sometimes attender of our meetings.

I recall how when Lee died, I received a tape from an Anaheim meeting in which saints came to the mike one by one and told glowing stories of him, one of them saying something like, "And just before he died his face shone like that of an angel." I almost vomited when I heard that.

So, yes, there was an element -- a strong element -- of Lee-dolatry in the Lc and I was party to it.

But here's where I differ with Matt: it wasn't displacing Christ. During my most fervent days in the "recovery" I found myself in the Word more, musing on Christ more, praying more, preaching the gospel more than any other time in my life. Lee was a servant who pointed me to Christ. My mistake -- and that of many others -- was to overly embrace this servant much as someone hugs the man who hands him the Publishers Clearinghouse Sweepstake check.

I have now put away that small idol. I still appreciate and respect the ministry of Witness Lee very much but I no longer quote him incessantly, no longer think he was just about 1 helium molecule away from float-off-into-heaven rapture. He was a man, flawed like all of us, who had a ministry which pointed people to Christ.

Matt is wrong to spend so much time trying to diminish this man.


SC

[Cal]

SC,

Well-stated post. (Always, the devil's advocate, eh?)

However, I believe that which encourages idolatry is systemic in the LCS. That is, the system which gives men more authority than they should rightfully have, the doctrine of absolute submission.

If your goal is to free people from the LCS, this should be your target, IMHO.

[Paul Cox]

Originally Posted by SpeakersCorner

It's been interesting to me to watch the normal LC detractors rise up against Matt in his claim that that LC is systemically idolatrous. I agree with those who are arguing against Matt's thesis, but I actually think Matt has a legitimate point.

Speaker,
I know when you talk about "normal LC detractors," you can't possibly be talking about me...er...right?

Anyway, I agree that Matt has a legitimate point; but not THE legitimate point - which has been MY point all along. This thread talks about abuse in the Local Church. Many of us have suffered abbuse to some degree or another, and we all have different perspectives on what was the cause of that abuse.

Personally, I think peer pressure and culture are a far more profitable line to consider, in consideration of trying to help current members understand what is going on with them. How many will be convinced that they are engaging in idolatry simply by being a member of the Local Church? Matt did say that. That's of no help at all.

Roger

[Matt Anderson]

Originally Posted by Roger

Anyway, I agree that Matt has a legitimate point; but not THE legitimate point - which has been MY point all along.

Roger

Roger,

Where did I say I had THE legitimate point? Please quote me. I have spoken strongly to establish the fact that there was widespread, pervasive idolatry in the LCS that affected every locality and almost every person. I've said the LCS is an idolatrous system.

Maybe the strength of what I have said makes you think I think it is THE ONLY legitimate point, but that never entered my mind.

I know you reacted to my use of the word 'idolatry' and likened it to the use of the word 'cult' on the other forum. The difference is this. Idolatry is a Biblical subject that is very important to God. Labeling a group as a 'cult' or 'not-a-cult' is not shown to be very important to God.

What I believe is that it (idolatry) was "a factor" and yes, a serious one from God's point of view. I may even have said a "key factor", but never THE factor.

I never said that simply being a member forced you to commit idolatry. What I said was that being a member caused most to stumble in regards to idolatry. There is a huge difference between these two.

If you are in an environment that is full of a certain kind of problem and everyone is saying, "the water is fine, jump in, it feels great". What do most do? They jump in.

Ohio,

When I say God's point of view, I am talking about learning His language (I don't mean Hebrew) and His viewpoint as demonstrated through many stories in the OT. Paul recommends this approach and therefore my statements about it are about me taking Paul's good advice. It's not about thinking I stand in the position of God because I am trying to look at it from His point of view.

I will still call you to clear the air on this matter.

Matt

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Matt

I will still call you to clear the air on this matter.

Matt

I really don't like to argue on cell phones. I have never won.

Can we do emails instead.

Besides, methinks Brutus may get whooped on Saturday too, and that would be too much for me to take.

[Toledo]

Originally Posted by Matt

I never said that simply being a member forced you to commit idolatry. What I said was that being a member caused most to stumble in regards to idolatry. There is a huge difference between these two.

How about Post #152...?

2. I am pointing my guns at the fact that the LC was idolatrous and every single soul who went into the LC and loved it at any stage of their experience there was entering into a level of idolatry. Some more or less than others. The leaders/ex-leaders are more guilty of the idolatry than the commoners.

Note: Now that's a broad generalization! Keep in mind that I consider myself to have committed idolatry based on the Biblical standard of it and don't overreact just because of your ignorance on the matter.

3. If someone is going to come along and try to paint one locality more "white" because they were there then I am going to bring as many examples out of the woodwork as I am able to do to help confront the fact that no locality was "white". They were all interlinked into an idolatrous system and party to the idolatry.

I don't have to be a first-hand expert at the LC to see that it was an idolatrous system. I can prove the idolatry based on the Word of God and many aspects of the system.

"Every single soul"...? That's more than simply "most".

So far you have not made your case. Perhaps that's why there is so much resistance. You started with "the fact that the LC was idolatrous and every single soul who went into the LC and loved it at any stage of their experience there was entering into a level of idolatry." However, though there were and are undeniably serious problems in the local churches, you have yet to establish that idolatry is a "fact". Rather it remains only your personal assertion.

[Matt Anderson]

Originally Posted by Toledo

How about Post #152...?

"Every single soul"...? That's more than simply "most".

So far you have not made your case. Perhaps that's why there is so much resistance. You started with "the fact that the LC was idolatrous and every single soul who went into the LC and loved it at any stage of their experience there was entering into a level of idolatry." However, though there were and are undeniably serious problems in the local churches, you have yet to establish that idolatry is a "fact". Rather it remains only your personal assertion.

Toledo, I will never make the case on this issue at the level of extreme that I have presented it. At the same time, I have made enough of the case...

I knew there would be a lot of resistance to what I said and that few would buy it at the level I have been presenting it. Only God knows what is the right level at which we should estimate it.

I'm going to do some thinking and see if I can clarify what I was saying in a clearer fashion without losing substance, but let me do a little lawyeresque fine-slicing from your quote of me for now...

I said, "every single soul who went into the LC and loved it at any stage of their experience there..." The word it refers to the LC, not the Lord. If you fell in love with the LC then you went into a level of idolatry. The reason I say this is because the LC was almost never (except in the very early 60's) just the "church in your locality". It was a system of interconnected churches across many localities. It was interconnected by a particular ministry (Witness Lee's).

We are not to worship the Body of Christ. We are to worship God. We are called to love the members of the Body, not the Body as a concept. This is part of what has happened in the LC. The Body of Christ has been worshipped on par with God. We see it in it's extreme form among the Blended's, but it was/is present in lesser forms among many, many more from the LC.

I totally agree that my statement went to the extreme and I acknowledged that with my note on point #2 in post #152.

Also, in post #152 I clearly stated that I did not consider myself an authority even though I was speaking strongly.

Originally Posted by Matt

In closing, I am no authority. I am just one voice. I'll speak and if you want to try to call me an authority to try and put me in my place go ahead.

In closing on this note, let me say that I do understand everyone's reaction to this subject and to my presentation of it. I am not blind to the level of emphasis I have brought to this subject nor am I blind to the level of pushing I have done. I never expected sweeping agreement. I expected the opposite and I got it. At this stage, I'm defending the fact that this issue belongs on the table in front of everyone. The pervasive effect of the LC system (an idolatrous one) on the lives of many needs to be fully examined and the leaven should be purged.

I've done what I have done on this thread knowingly and in good conscience before the Lord. Any personal offense I have caused I will clear up. I don't believe I have attacked anyone personally, although I will admit to giving Hope a hard time on some occasions and pushing back on a few others when they have come after me. When and if Hope thinks I've crossed the line with him personally, I am willing to address it.

Peter Debelak introduced 1 Cor 5:11-12 as part of a question to me which I have not responded to yet. If you have a minute re-read 1 Corinthians 5. Take the context of the chapter in. There is serious sin in the midst of the Corinthians and Paul knows it needs to be dealt with. When I re-read to address Peter's question, I saw a verse I hadn't seen before.

I've bolded it. It's one of my central concerns when it comes to this desire to highlight the "positives" from the past. No one thinks we should set Christ aside, but I've heard much glorying in the past of the LC in my travels around the Midwest and elsewhere. We even have a phrase that we have heard on these forums. It's the "glory days".

1 Corinthians 5:4-7
in the name of our Lord Jesus, ye being gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus, (5) to deliver such a one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. (6) Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump? (7) Purge out the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, even as ye are unleavened. For our passover also hath been sacrificed, even Christ:

A decent amount of my resistance has been to Hope and his desire to try and balance out the "negatives" with the "positives". Cleaning house based on past events is about focusing on the "negatives". Jesus Christ will take care of the positives by His Spirit. He will bless us with His presence when we are faithful to repent!

I've made the strong point that right in the midst of the "glory days" you (collective you) were being leavened by an worker whose heart was not set totally on the Lord. Yes, Witness Lee. His deeds demonstrate a lot of seeking filthy lucre and selfish gain.

Matt

P.S. to SC - I've only been harping on Lee because the position he holds in people's heart. We have to confront some facts that are little known. I don't hate Lee. He had serious issues that he foisted on top of many believers and was allowed to get far too much power among the saints. The fact is that he is dead, but those left with him too high in their hearts need to confront the deeds of his past even before the US. If someone has fully confronted his deeds and still wants to read some of his material, then go for it. However, I strongly believe his writings would be a stumblingblock to a young believer because of the leaven in them. In my opinion, they should not be promoted to the uninformed.

[Paul Cox]

Originally Posted by Matt

Roger,


I never said that simply being a member forced you to commit idolatry. What I said was that being a member caused most to stumble in regards to idolatry. There is a huge difference between these two.

If you are in an environment that is full of a certain kind of problem and everyone is saying, "the water is fine, jump in, it feels great". What do most do? They jump in.

Matt,

I will have to wade through your volumes and volumes of lengthy posts to find it, but you did say something to the effect that just remaining in the group means you commit idolatry, or maybe are somhow associated with idolatry. I will find it and post it. But if you are softening your approach now, I applaud you.

BTW, cultic activity and idolatry can very easily be proven to be one and the same. But for the record, I don't ever recall saying that the Local Church is an outright cult. What I have always insisted is that it is a sect of Christianity with cultic tendencies.

Okay, so idolatry is an important thing to the Lord in the Bible. But so is adultery. How many times in the Old Testament does the Lord talk about Israel (the Church) going a whoring after strange gods? The case can be made, I suppose, that the Local Churches have gone a whoring after LSM.

So then does that mean that just by being in the group, genuine seeking Christians who happen to find themselves there are guilty of spiritual adultery? I don't think so; and I don't think we can take that kind of black and white approach to the saints who remain there.

I have been one of the most harsh critics of the Local Church, for what it's worth. But I cannot bring myself to say that all the saints who find themselves there are engaging in idolatry. This is not a matter of everybody being in a pot of hot water. It's a matter of individual saints being dealt with on an individual basis.

Those hypocrites who sit on their thrones over on LaPalma deserve to be exposed for all that they are. They are Witness Lee bobble heads, and they refuse to know anything else. Yes, they are true idolaters.

There is little doubt that there is widespread idolatry in the Living Stream Churches. But many of us know too many saints personally to just paint them with the broad brush of "idolatry." This is not the Old Testament where the Lord just opens up the earth and swallows all who bowed before the golden calf. This is the age of grace.

While we must learn from the examples of the Old Testament, I find that many who rely too heavily upon the Old Testament examples become harsh and judgmental. Did this not happen in the Local Church? Every time they want to judge you, they break out with the Old Testament examples. Did we not recently engage in a discussion about a leprous house and the need to re-plaster the walls? What a mockery of Old Testament usage that was!

I still say there are many seeking Local Church members who are starting to eye the exit with favorability. They want to understand what is happening to them. There is psychological manipulation, peer pressure, cultural pressure and a whole host of things. These are the matters they need to become clear on. These are the things that started the lights to go off in me when I was at that point.

If someone had come to me and blasted me with “IDOLATRY,” I’m not sure that would have mattered a hill of beans to me. But group dynamics, now there is something that is very easy to see.

Roger

PS I had posted this before reading Toledo's post. He has already quoted Matt in the matter of painting all Local Churchers with the broad brush of idolatry. So I can avoid that homework.

[finallyprettyokay]

I still say there are many seeking Local Church members who are starting to eye the exit with favorability. They want to understand what is happening to them. There is psychological manipulation, peer pressure, cultural pressure and a whole host of things. These are the matters they need to become clear on. These are the things that started the lights to go off in me when I was at that point.

If someone had come to me and blasted me with “IDOLATRY,” I’m not sure that would have mattered a hill of beans to me. But group dynamics, now there is something that is very easy to see.

I agree, for myself, with this. I know when my husband and I left the church, we didn't really have very many people we could talk to about these issues -- and really no one to talk to that had already been through that experience. So much of what we did was just sort of floundering to find our way. Now, no doubt that is somewhat true in most or all cases of people leaving -- in one way, it is a personal, solitary journey. Still, every hard experience can be made easier with a shoulder to lean on.

On the other hand, I am a pretty subjective kind of person and the things you write about in the first part of this quote are exactly the kinds of things that are interesting to me, and the knowledge that I needed when leaving the LC. But my husband --- now, he is a different duck from me. The discussion on idolatry would be very interesting to him, and would have been helpful to him while we were in that leaving process.

So maybe both discussions are valuable. I would love to see lots more threads about the psychological manipulation, peer pressure, cultural pressure and group dynamics. I won't be on the forum much in the next 6 months, so sadly these threads will miss my wise additions. But go for it, you guys.

Seeing you until Saturday, probably not much after that,

finallyprettyokay



-

[Matt Anderson]

Originally Posted by Roger

There is little doubt that there is widespread idolatry in the Living Stream Churches. But many of us know too many saints personally to just paint them with the broad brush of "idolatry." This is not the Old Testament where the Lord just opens up the earth and swallows all who bowed before the golden calf. This is the age of grace.

I know Roger and I agree with your sentiments (especially on over-utilization of the OT even if that does not appear to be the case on this thread) and I know how personal this is for everyone. It's personal to me. You've only heard a small piece of my story (just as I know little of yours). We are warned that the age of grace is not any freedom to sin. I know you know this already. I know we won't be swallowed up as a group. We won't even be condemned for our bad deeds, but we will be judged and suffer loss if we are not faithful to repent.

2 Corinthians 6:16-7:1
And what agreement hath a temple of God with idols? for we are a temple of the living God; even as God said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. (17) Wherefore Come ye out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, And touch no unclean thing; And I will receive you, (18) And will be to you a Father, And ye shall be to me sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty. (7:1) Having therefore these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all defilement of flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

Even in the "age of grace" we cannot lose a proper/healthy fear of God and His holiness. The Corinthians did.

I also know that most LCers need a big helping of love.

Matt

[Paul Cox]

Originally Posted by SpeakersCorner

It's been interesting to me to watch the normal LC detractors rise up against Matt in his claim that that LC is systemically idolatrous.

Speaker,

I thought to let this go the other day, but it keeps coming back to my consciousness. Brother, you seem to like to segregate yourself from "normal LC detractors;" as if you are not one of them.

Guess what, brother? The only difference between you and I is the degree to which we detract. Believe me, just based upon what you said in the above quoted post, you are not only considered to be a detractor by the Blendeds, but an outright "opposer." Let’s see, you are under “quarantine” now, right?

Actually, you took the wrong message from my so-called rising up "against Matt." In spite of all the criticism I have leveled at Witness Lee, the Blendeds, and all that is associated with them, my heart aches for the innocent saints who are duped.

Many of them have no clue what is going on in the upper echelons of that sick organization. The Blendeds have done an excellent job of information control, and promoting a false image of the ministry and its churches. This whole thing that's going on with Hank handy graft right now is not about gaining "new ones;" it's about fooling those who are in the LC into believing that everything is okay with them and "Christianity."

As I say this, names and faces flash before me. This is not just me opposing Matt. I know without the shadow of a doubt that these precious saints are not engaging in idolatry. Neither do they deserve to be thrown into that pen with the diehard zealots who know better.

But I can also see names and faces of long time fringe followers who have as much as admitted that they know what is going on, but refuse to leave. We can very easily see how their blind devotion to a man’s ministry might be idolatry. But even there we should tread carefully.

I don't object to Matt's thesis on idolatry. He has done a thorough job, and obviously he has given this a lot of thought, going all the way back to when he was an even younger man. What I object to is roping all these little ones in with the Scribes and Pharisees.

Roger

[SpeakersCorner]

Originally Posted by Roger

Speaker ...Brother, you seem to like to segregate yourself from "normal LC detractors;" as if you are not one of them ... Guess what, brother? The only difference between you and I is the degree to which we detract. Believe me, just based upon what you said in the above quoted post, you are not only considered to be a detractor by the Blendeds, but an outright "opposer." Let’s see, you are under “quarantine” now, right?

Roger,

I'm glad you posted this because I have considered retracting a bit of my last post. I had the thing all written but wasn't clear whether or not to publish.

Anyway, you are correct in your point about the difference in detraction being just a matter of degree. I'll tell you where the line is. I do not think Witness Lee was anything other than a minister of God. I know about his failures. They don't change my view on his being a minister of God. I think most of the negative stuff written about him is mostly just a criticism of his leadership style, one which admittedly really chafes North Americans. My most severe critique of him is that he allowed the Blendeds to move into place and he allowed the exaltation of himself to go unchecked. Huge mistake there.

But so much of what he ministered still speaks richly to me. Maybe he got it from someone else, maybe I need to read more people, I don't know, but it still speaks to me. For instance, the matter of God being "processed." I know that offends the heck out of a lot of people, but it really feeds me to see God in this way. Most people I know view God in a multitude of ways -- powerful, a Santa Claus, nebulous, aloof, whatever -- but no one I have ever spoken to outside of the "recovery" has ever talked about the Architect God with the elaborate, amazing plan which would involve He Himself actually going through changes in order to accomplish the plan, even dying. God dying! Shocking. (DJohnson just blew a gasket.) But I have lived over half a century, all of it talking with other Christians and I don't believe I have had a single conversation with another believer who mentioned this aspect of God.

I remember when Lee talked about the infinite God being limited to the size of a human fetus, hidden away in the womb of a woman. How marvelous. How amazing. Remember the song that offended all the non-LCers: How Small Thou Art? Well, what a great song. Who ever thinks of God that way, as minutely tiny so that He can be ingested by human beings?

You are right, brother, that I am the offscouring of the LSM society. That used to hurt, but no more. My thirty plus years in the LC helped me develop callouses to help with that.

As far as what I wanted to adjust in my last post, I feel I went too far in giving Matt credit concerning idols in the LC. I really find his whole argument tedious, offensive, and counterproductive. But I allowed that there possibly were idols within the LC because of the way we exalted Lee. I would now state simply that we over-exalted Lee. Let God judge whether or not it was an idol.

Sorry for the rambling response. I do appreciate what you've been saying in defense of the saints within the LC. I agree with you.


SC

[Cal]

SC,

I think if you had spent more time in a region under the sway of a Benson Phillips-type LSM zealot you would probably be using terms that sound less like euphemisms than "leadership style" and "chafe."

Igzy

[Cal]

I have a question for you, SC, and anyone else who cares to answer.

If you were the older sibling of a child who was damaged by an abusive father, would you spend most of your time in discussion with your sibling telling him or her all the good points of your father?

In other words, what would be more important to you, salvaging your father's reputation, or helping your sibling find healing?

[Thankful Jane]

Originally Posted by Igzy

Matt,

I encourage you to read the last chapter of "The Torch of the Testimony" by John Kennedy, a book your mother has recommended. There Kennedy makes the very important point that the testimony of the Church is mainly a testimony of positive truth, not a testimony of exposing evil.

As I've said before, this is one of the problems of a forum such as this. It tends to get us on the track of exposing evil. Our main testimony should be to the Person of Christ. That should be our focus.

I'm sure you have encountered self-appointed "error exposing" ministries on the Internet. Don't they seem a bit contentious and weird to you? Once one starts to think one's calling is to expose every error (as one sees it) one has gotten off track. Our main focus should be to bring people to Christ. Yes, we sometimes reprove, but reproving shouldn't be the meat of our ministry.

Besides, I doubt all the leaven is purged out of your or anyone else's life. But we still have to get along as best we can. We don't wait to be perfect before we the praise the Lord.

Dear Igzy,

Just a quick note before I'm gone for much of the day. The testimony of the church to the world is a "positive" one preaching and lifting up Christ. However, if there is evil (leaven) among believers, it must be purged out or there will be no testimony to the world of who He is. He is holy. The lump must be also. Purging out leaven is not one person's job, but all of ours. God will hold us all responsible for leaven in our midst. We all should be looking at the scriptures and measuring our beliefs by them. He gave us the capacity and the tools to do this.

The Bible refutes a system of hierarchy that lords it over Gods people. It also refutes the idea of our submitting to dark authority. It refutes the idea of one man's ministry being "the" ministry all should follow. It also condemns establishing a oneness definition that is smaller than the whole Body of Christ which excludes real believers. These things are leaven.

We participated to varying degrees in this leaven while participating in the LC. The changes that occurred in our hearts' attitude as a result of being involved in all these things do not evaporate somehow. Our heart is healed as we purge them out of ourselves. We need to let God expose every remnant in us of thinking and practice that came from such leaven. We need to help each other do this also.

Thankful Jane

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Thankful Jane

Dear Igzy,


We participated to varying degrees in this leaven while participating in the LC. The changes that occurred in our hearts' attitude as a result of being involved in all these things do not evaporate somehow. Our heart is healed as we purge them out of ourselves. We need to let God expose every remnant in us of thinking and practice that came from such leaven. We need to help each other do this also.

Thankful Jane

Dear Jane,

Your point is well-taken.

But I would add that our testimony to each other should also be as positive as we hope it is to the world. A testimony which is chirpy to the world, but beats its own up in private is creepy. As a rule, we should preach the positiveness of Christ to each other, that's part of being gracious.

It's not that there is anything wrong with pointing out sin in others if one feels compelled to do so and does it humbly, always considering "there but for the grace of God go I." It's just a matter of degree and emphasis. You can look at your face in the mirror and see it as a whole being reasonably attractive, or you can look for the flaws and see only the ugliness. Then you can focus to a pathological level on fixing the flaws and end up with a face like Michael Jackson's.

There are serious errors in the LC mindset and I don't mind pointing them out. I don't mind your doing it either. But if I myself focused on those and never saw or commented on the positive, well, I hope no one ever does that to me.

John Nelson Darby, as Kennedy points out in TTOTT, was a seriously flawed leader. He had a mental stronghold of perfectionism that needed overthrowing and apparently never was. As Kennedy wrote, Darby would rather destroy the church than give in on a principle he thought was right. Lee had a similar problem, which led to a similar intolerance. Both of them probably thought they were just trying to purge out leaven, too.

Let's just be careful, that's all I'm saying. As Waylon Jennings sang, what goes around comes around.