The LCS Factor

[Toledo]

Originally Posted by Igzy

LCers don't think Lee is the minister of the age because they idolize him, they idolize him because they think he's the minister of the age.

Sorry, I must disagree. I never heard the expression "minister of the age" until WL's funeral (that's not to deny that it may have been used, I simply cannot recall either the phrase or the concept).

Even so, I did not idolize Brother Lee. I thought, and continue to think, that he was a terrific bible teacher.

Originally Posted by Igzy

Because of the dynamics of the LC view of authority and oneness, LCers generally believe what they are told to believe.

Again, sorry, I must disagree. I strongly tended to take WL's directions on the scripture, but I always tried to find out for myself how he proved his points. What I read from WL drove me to the bible, not to endless repetition of LSM phases.

I suppose what I am objecting to here is your term "LCers generally". The difficulty I have with many of the posts on this forum is that there is a common assumption that "LCers generally" conform to a certain mold. I am frankly astonished at many of the testimonies that I read here. Not that I do not accept them, but that I had not seen the like before. In the desire to lump all the local churches together and brand them all as equally evil and culpable, posters here tend to minimize or ignore significant differences that existed and still exist among the various local churches and regions. The seven churches in Revelation were all different -- Philadelphia was not Pergamos; Thyatira was not Laodicea.

Originally Posted by Igzy

They don't obey unquestioningly because they are idolaters, they do so because they believe in a false system of authority and oneness, and fear the consequences of resisting it.

1) I do not, nor have I ever, obeyed unquestioningly. Even as an infantry officer I never obeyed those in authority over me in such a way. Only lawful commands need be obeyed. Following an unlawful command makes me as guilty as the one giving it.

2) I do not believe the eldership is a "false system of authority". It is clear in the scriptures that there are to be elders appointed in every church, and that we are to obey them:

Obey them that have the rule over you and submit yourselves for they watch for your souls as they that must give account that they may do it with joy and not with grief for that is unprofitable for you. ~ Hebrews 13:17

However, I do not agree that there is any authority higher than that of the local elders. We do not submit to Anaheim nor to Cleveland or anywhere else.

[Matt Anderson]

Originally Posted by Toledo

1) I do not, nor have I ever, obeyed unquestioningly. Even as an infantry officer I never obeyed those in authority over me in such a way. Only lawful commands need be obeyed. Following an unlawful command makes me as guilty as the one giving it.

2) I do not believe the eldership is a "false system of authority". It is clear in the scriptures that there are to be elders appointed in every church, and that we are to obey them:

Obey them that have the rule over you and submit yourselves for they watch for your souls as they that must give account that they may do it with joy and not with grief for that is unprofitable for you. ~ Hebrews 13:17

However, I do not agree that there is any authority higher than that of the local elders. We do not submit to Anaheim nor to Cleveland or anywhere else.

Toledo,

I think you may already know this, but...

Be sure to make note of the point Hope brought out in regards to the word "obey" in this verse. Study it in the Greek. It means to "be persuaded". It applies when a believer is in sin and needs to be convinced of their error and change their behavior. It also applies when it comes to being persuaded of something related to the truth. It does not apply in the case of "lordship" in things that are optional. In those things, each believer's freedom to follow the Lord directly without the involvement of "elders" should be upheld (yea, even fiercely defended).

Elders (and I mean true elders) have to know their boundaries. They have to know how to support the pre-eminence of Christ in the lives of each believer. This includes being willing to suffer for the sake of one who is younger so that the Lord is established in their life.

It's not top-down leadership like the military. It's bottom-up like in the bottom of an ancient ship. The boat is moving in the right direction because of the labor of those who lead by example. The people on the deck of the ship have the freedom to move about and live their lives.

This is the kind of example Jesus set and taught for "leadership". This was/is different than "Leedership" as taught in the LC.

Matt