The LCS Factor

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Nell

Igzy,

Please read the original post which I have provided the link above. It puts what Jane said in context. The bold in Don's post was added by him, not by Jane. Context is important.
Nell

Nell, I've read it. What is it you want me to realize that you don't think I do?

[Cal]

Matt,

I really think you need to consider researching and writing a formal paper explaining from top to bottom, front to back, your beliefs about idolatry in the LCs. And I think you would do well do submit such a paper for review by a trained theologian. I just think the format here make everything come out too piecemeal to be appreciated.

I'm serious. This is obviously something you feel very strongly about and it seems to be too broad in scope to fit into this forum in a way people can get their heads around. It seems to not be getting traction and I think the reason is that it requires a lot of things to be defined, it requires a lot of pretext, before the main point can be appreciated. It could be a book actually, I think.

Igzy

[djohnson(XLCmember)]

But really how complicated is it? Do some in the LCS idolize Lee? Clearly yes. Do all in the LCS idolize Lee? Probably not. I think this is merely stating the obvious.

The issue some have legitimately raised on this thread is that when discussing abuse let's stay focused on that instead of saying: "Yes there was abuse but here are 10 positive things to counterbalance it." There are loads of LCS sites advertising all the positive aspects of their church while hiding the negative. I started this thread to explore what, if any, influence the LCS had on social problems among their members. I think the rampant Lee hero worshiping is one thing that surely influenced people negatively so the discussion of idolatry does have a place here but...obsessing over it? Not so much!

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by Igzy

Matt,
I really think you need to consider researching and writing a formal paper explaining from top to bottom, front to back, your beliefs about idolatry in the LCs. And I think you would do well do submit such a paper for review by a trained theologian. I just think the format here make everything come out too piecemeal to be appreciated

Igz,
while I think I know where you are coming from, and your points here are well taken (by me at least) I would say that Matt has a right to post in a manner that he thinks will get his point across. Some posters like to keep it short (thank you Ohio) while some others like to stretch things out a bit. This thread is only about two weeks old, and it IS a very important topic, so I don't see the problem in giving Matt and some others a little more time to develop their points to maturity.

Like Nell said, nobody is forced to participate (or even read for that matter), and there are LOTS of other boards with all sorts of juicy topics to delve into. I bet Mr. KSA is cooling his jets right at this very moment, waiting for some of us to come back and reenter some of the interesting topics over there on the apologetics boards.

This is one of the big reasons that the software and website was purchased and set up the way it has been...so that people can have choices and enter into discussions which interest and affect them the most. Certain topics may not interest them, or maybe a certain topic just gets their blood boiling too much to make it worth it. Hey...no problemo!...just mosey on over to one of the other boards and "get yur post on" saints.

I am NOT asking that any particular person not post on any particular board. Just don't make it your life's work to attempt to "counter" and/or "balance" everything that is posted. Address the issues at hand. Address the issue with the Word of God and with your practical experience. I think Peter D did a rather nice job of this a little earlier. He refuted and rebutted with some real practical experiences. (I think he used some verses too). Of course, some of us oldies but goodies are probably going to hit him back with some refutations and rebutting of our own...but this is what a discussion forum is all about!

[Cal]

Dear Admin,

I have no problem with what you are saying. I was simply trying to make a suggestion to Matt which, quite honestly, I hope he will consider. Not that I want him to not post about this subject here, but that I want his ideas to have the best chance of making sense to people. Right now I think those ideas are struggling a bit.

Igzy

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by Igzy

I have no problem with what you are saying. I was simply trying to make a suggestion to Matt which, quite honestly, I hope he will consider. Not that I want him to not post about this subject here, but that I want his ideas to have the best chance of making sense to people. Right now I think those ideas are struggling a bit

Hey, I'm a product of California public schools (Kinder through State College)..so I am very sensitive to having to struggle with all sorts of ideas! Really, I don't think it's the ideas that are struggling so much, but rather those of us on the other end that are having to grapple with the weighty consequences of idolatry. It's pretty heavy-duty stuff folks. Again, I think this is going to take some time. It's going to take some patience, and even some gritting of our teeth a little to work our way through this. Nevertheless, let's try our best to not cut light, truth and historical facts off at the pass.

Ok, I just got to review Terry's post here.

Here's the deal folks, from my perspective. I go back a ways - just about three and one half decades. I lived in "brother's houses" with more then one of the "blended brothers" before they were married, and before they were even a prominent member. I have also lived with and "mingled" with hundreds upon hundreds of us run-of-the-mill, average saints, including all you guys out there reading this post right now. I know that there is a terrible dark thread that runs through the whole thing. Sorry to be so blunt. The terrible dark thread is indeed idolatry. Idolatry of a man, a mere creation of God. There was (is) idolatry of a man's personal ministry. There was (is) idolatry of a "vision". Yes, "without a vision the people parish"...but I tell you before God right now, what good is a vision if it causes those who follow it to parish after all, and then take their family and loved ones down with them?

The Local Church that many of the younger ones here speak of is a Local Church that I do not know. Nor is it a Local Church that is reflected in the writing and speaking of the current leadership. This leads me to believe that things did not “get better” after I left. The current publications and speaking at the trainings and conferences reflect a people - a movement, that is still, to a great degree, idolizing a man and his ministry. They have replaced the Creator and His Word with a mere creation and the words that come out of the mouth of this creation. This is where the rubber meets the road as far as idolatry in the Local Church is concerned. Do we love and fear man and his words more then we love and fear God and His Word? Sorry to say, when the holy cry came: “Chose you this day whom ye will serve!” many of us failed the test. I dare not say most, but I know it was many. For sure we know that those who have taken the lead in the Local Church can be counted among the many. So, we know for sure that there was idolatry in the past, and we know for sure that there is idolatry now. To deny that there was significant idolatry in the middle defies all logic and reason, I’m afraid.

The moral of the story is that our sacred cow does not necessarily look like a golden calf, and even if it did, we would never admit that it is our sacred cow anyway.

[Paul Cox]

It may be that it is the subject of idolatry that needs its own thread, so that those of us who want to discuss abuse can do so without being burdened down by tons and tons of lengthy and convoluted posts.

Frankly, I think the book idea is a good one.

Roger

[blessD]

I have been busy so just now catching up since Monday AM. Interestingly, the subject has not changed. I enjoy reading every member's posts even if comes to mind. Someone in the last week may have mentioned this, but I attributed the abuses to false teachings. According to my experience, it fits as a root cause more than idolatry. My healing and freedom from the false teachings came through the pure Word (no footnotes needed) and support from my true friends (you know who you are).

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

... but rather those of us on the other end that are having to grapple with the weighty consequences of idolatry. It's pretty heavy-duty stuff folks. Again, I think this is going to take some time. It's going to take some patients ...

Little pun here Unto? Sometimes I feel like a "patient."

While I tend to avoid all doctors and hospitals like the plague (people die there!), my wife spends much more time with them and has this chief complaint about the medical profession -- "they don't listen to me, they think they already know what's wrong with me, especially these young doctors right out of school."

I'm starting to understand how she feels.

Repeatedly posters try to explain our symptoms. We say, "no it's not a cult, but occasionally it kind of felt like that." You can tell the "doctor" is still not listening. He has some long fancy title like "apologetics." He has already made up his mind -- I believe you have a bad case of "idolatry." No, I don't think so, doctor, I grew up with that, and this is really different. Explain to me again what "idolatry" looks like. Well, if that's true, then everyone I know has got it too. All mankind is sick with it.

Now ... when people ask how I'm doing, I just tell them "I'm fine, just gettin' old, like the rest of us." I guess I'm in denial.

[Matt Anderson]

This my response to Hope's post about God's warning through Edom. I've got a busy day ahead, so you are free from me for the day!!!

Preface: No one that I am aware of on this forum (including djohnson) is jumping on Christ in the believers or attempting to discolor the reality of the Lord in any individual's life. No one is even close to that. What is happening is that the "collective" / "corporate" aspects of the LC are being strongly challenged and how association with the LC over time will bring an individual believer into a compromised state in their relationship to the Lord. If the believer tries to recover their right standing before the Lord, the only option is to leave the LC. You cannot maintain good conscience and a right relationship with the Lord and stay in the LC. This was true in the past and it's true presently.

Hope's warning from the OT used Edom. Most know that Esau (father of the Edomites) is a type of the flesh. Galatians 5:13-26 establishes the opposition of the desires of the flesh and spirit. This is the same tension that existed between Jacob/Esau and Israel/Edom.

Hope's warning based on Edom has validity, but it must be set in context. Edom is a type of the flesh and God will completely and utterly deal with the flesh.

In type Edom's mockery and ridicule of the downfall of Judah is repugnant to God because it comes from the flesh. I don't think anyone is mocking or ridiculing Christ in us, Christ in others or even Christ in the LC and it's past. We are saying that idolatry was systematically introduced and mixed with the believers' experience of Christ. It was done in such a way that almost all were brought into idolatry within the LC from it's inception in the US.

To make a fair comparison of Hope's example with Edom, this should be juxtaposed against a prophet of God who prophecies against Israel and/or Judah. They prophecy according to the Spirit of the Lord and there is no warning for them when they speak out against God's own.

Is Hope saying that everything being said against the LC is just coming from the "flesh"? If not, how does Hope separate it out in his mind? As an estimate what percentage of what is being said is from the "flesh" versus what percentage is coming from some acting like the prophets? Jeremiah weeped because he saw the judgment coming on Judah and it broke his heart. This is from the Spirit of God. Edom mocked and ridiculed Judah when the judgment was coming. This was not from the Spirit of God, it was in the "flesh". (Note: I don't claim to be a prophet, nor do I claim to operate solely apart from the "flesh")

What will we do if and when the LC is judged? Where is our heart? Notice I say, "if". I don't presume they will be in any way that is completely obvious from an outside viewpoint.

If our words against the teachings and practices of the LC come from the "flesh" then we should integrate some Godly fear. If however, we speak more like the prophets attempting to remind a people whose ears have been closed, then we should fear not speaking more than we fear this warning from Hope.

Consider what the Lord says to Ezekiel. This is a warning too. So, I conclude that warnings from God in the OT cut in every direction.

Ezekiel 3
4 Then He said to me, 'Son of man, go to the house of Israel and speak with My words to them. 5 'For you are not being sent to a people of unintelligible speech or difficult language, but to the house of Israel, 6 nor to many peoples of unintelligible speech or difficult language, whose words you cannot understand. But I have sent you to them who should listen to you; 7 yet the house of Israel will not be willing to listen to you, since they are not willing to listen to Me. Surely the whole house of Israel is stubborn and obstinate. 8 'Behold, I have made your face as hard as their faces and your forehead as hard as their foreheads.

16 At the end of seven days the word of the LORD came to me, saying, 17 'Son of man, I have appointed you a watchman to the house of Israel; whenever you hear a word from My mouth, warn them from Me. 18 'When I say to the wicked, ‘You will surely die,’ and you do not warn him or speak out to warn the wicked from his wicked way that he may live, that wicked man shall die in his iniquity, but his blood I will require at your hand. 19 'Yet if you have warned the wicked and he does not turn from his wickedness or from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but you have delivered yourself. 20 'Again, when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and I place an obstacle before him, he will die; since you have not warned him, he shall die in his sin, and his righteous deeds which he has done shall not be remembered; but his blood I will require at your hand. 21 'However, if you have warned the righteous man that the righteous should not sin and he does not sin, he shall surely live because he took warning; and you have delivered yourself.'

27 'But when I speak to you, I will open your mouth and you will say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord GOD.’ He who hears, let him hear; and he who refuses, let him refuse; for they are a rebellious house.

Matt

[TLFisher]

Last night Roger said:

"We cannot paint them all with a broad brush."

This morning Matt said:

"Idolatry is not about completely abandoning God. It's about who you rely on. Do you really think there are many in the LC who are relying totally on God or have they been led astray to relying on the "Minister of the Age" and their membership in the "Recovery"."

Peter said:

"I was not raised on "Truth Lessons" etc... in Cleveland And I was not raised on Witness Lee. The bible studies we had in high school were Word-centered, "

Matt, I do understand what you're saying, but I do agree with what Roger said; you cannot paint everyone with a broad brush.

I can totally relate to Peter. I was not raised on Witness Lee and I was not raised on Watchman Nee. Living in Alburquerque (73-75) and later in Anaheim (76-79), Witness Lee and Watchman Nee were just authors of books my parents had on their bookshelf. I didn't know the correlation between the books and the local church until I was in junior high. Even attending conferences listening to Witness Lee speak was no big deal. He was just a different brother speaking than I had been used to. In high school, when the SSOT started in 84, the focus was on the New Testament. Primarily in the Book of Romans. In the Young People's Conference, the brother who took care of the high school brothers from my locality encouraged and challenged us to read the Bible clear through from Genesis to Revelation.

I believe the points Matt was making is directed at the minority rather than the majority. Those that appear to be relying on what Witness Lee said or didn't say, need to be cared for. These ones need to be taken care of in a simple way. The ministry is a tool to help people know the Lord. The ministry of Witness Lee is not meant to replace ones faith, nor to become a crutch in their personal relationship with the Lord. Sure in the local churches many have an appreciation for Witness Lee's portion, but do they idolize him? The majority does not.

Just to provide a concluding word, when I was at the West Coast Conference this past July, a brother spoke a word of appreciation for brother Kaung. Just as with Witness Lee, one could easily lift up Stephen Kaung without knowing how it might effect other believers. When we assemble, sure we can appreciate certain ministries privately, but there's only one whose name needs to be lifted up and that's Jesus Christ.

[Matt Anderson]

Originally Posted by Terry

I believe the points Matt was making is directed at the minority rather than the majority. Those that appear to be relying on what Witness Lee said or didn't say, need to be cared for. These ones need to be taken care of in a simple way. The ministry is a tool to help people know the Lord. The ministry of Witness Lee is not meant to replace ones faith, nor to become a crutch in their personal relationship with the Lord. Sure in the local churches many have an appreciation for Witness Lee's portion, but do they idolize him? The majority does not.

My points I am making are directed at the systematic introduction of idolatry that will bring the majority into it. I believe that in fact, it did bring the majority into it. Steering clear of it was the the minority. I think all the evidence, including the speaking of many on these forums supports this conclusion.

My initial reaction to this thread and my decision to post here was based on a key fact. Hope was trying to exclude his locality from the rest of the Texas bunch. I stood up in opposition to this attempt. The reason I did is not because Dallas was the best or worst, but because it was part of a whole set of churches that were under the strong sway of an idolatrous system that was engineered and whose engineering started all the way back in the mid-60's.

In taking this stance, it has swept everyone into the problem. No one gets away "clean". I realized that this would happen from the beginning.

The objections have come from many directions because no one wants to be included in this grouping (idolatry), just like no one wants to be included in the label (cult).

In the past, I was unable to tell others that I grew up in a Christian cult/sect. I've still gone back and forth on whether it was a cult or a sect, but one thing is sure. I've become comfortable with admitting that I grew up in an abberant christian group (whether you call it a cult or a sect). This is just a basic fact. It's not something you can move around.

There is an effort by at least some to paint themselves out of this picture and into a prettier picture. Personally, I feel that this should be resisted because there are so many facts and so much anecdotal evidence that points the other way.

Matt

P.S. I do think I am going to open another thread and start introducing some things that are "background material" based primarily on the Word of God. These background materials form part of reason why I am pointing strongly at idolatry at this time. This could take me months to complete, but I've been encouraged by no less than 10-15 people to write a book on this subject. My response has always been the same. I don't have time, but the truth is that working one piece at a time I do have the time. The primary subject is not exactly "idolatry" but it ties in very heavily.

P.S.S. I've started a TOC (table of contents) on this book about 2 or 3 times, but never finished. I may introduce a table of contents as a structure and go from there. But on another thread...

[OBW]

Originally Posted by Matt

The objections have come from many directions because no one wants to be included in this grouping (idolatry), just like no one wants to be included in the label (cult).

This is statement is one of the reasons you are getting so much push-back. You are accusing us of avoiding this because we want to avoid the label ourselves. That is a lie. We have all said the opposite.

The problem is that you are bringing the definition to the level at which no one escapes, yet you want to point at someone else. If we are going to look at it at this most general level, then you are responsible for yourself and I am responsible for myself. Get your own sackcloth and ashes. Don’t throw yours on me. I have enough of my own.

You’ve got a serious thing to consider. What you feel is right you have to stick to. But when there is a preponderance of others who disagree, you have to determine what is happening. Are they merely blind? Or is there a better sense in the group than in the individual?

Either can be correct.

Now, while I do not rank any of us with the various scholars who write, I do note that we tend to accept the common position more than the lone position. (Following Lee was surely an exception on many issues.) Are you so clear that your sense of the situation is right and everyone else is wrong?

Most of us have agreed with the varying levels of idolatry that you have brought forward. But we disagree that it is as meaningful as a systemic thing when you get to the level where every sin is effectively linked to idolatry. We also agree that we can fully see how certain ones clearly abdicated their following of Christ to follow Lee and his ministry. But what we “obviously” see now has not always been so obvious. Few saw the things that we now speak of as facts. They were somewhat hidden. The fact that those persons were mostly the leadership and set the direction for the LC does not make the rest willing idolaters at the same level.

As I pointed out previously, most have followed they way they do because they have understood scripture to say what Lee’s teachings did. That was not because they worshipped Lee, but because they were fooled by his ways of speaking. Lee and the leadership are the workers. The rest are the farm, the building. The workers are judged harshly for the wood, hay and stubble that they use in building. That passage in 1 Cor 3 is not about you and me. It is about Lee and Benson and the other leaders.

So other than finding this kind of idolatry at the core of the leadership, it is fairly well certain that the thing this thread is about, the failures in the second generation, are only remotely connected to that and are more definitely connected to a multitude of different things at the case-by-case level. Some of those are full of LC problems, some little.

You feel so strongly to stand up to anyone with whom you disagree. I can do the same. Someone has to stop this. And a bunch of us have tried. You are not the arbiter of right and wrong. You have no separate standing to stop anyone, be it Don, SC, Ohio, or me. You are speaking for yourself. I believe that I am speaking consistent with a significant number of people who have said in one way or another that this is not right. It’s your turn to back down. Your continuance in this line is coming through as arrogance. If the “body” is speaking, it is you that is not listening. If you consider your calling above that, then consider Lee and his ways. He took no counsel from anyone. Are you headed there?

It might be best if the chirping of crickets is the only response.

[SpeakersCorner]

Chirp ... chirp ... chirp ...

[Matt Anderson]

Originally Posted by OBW

This is statement is one of the reasons you are getting so much push-back. You are accusing us of avoiding this because we want to avoid the label ourselves. That is a lie. We have all said the opposite.

Please show me one place you have said the opposite. I'm curious to see a quote on this one.

I'm not accusing you avoiding a label. I said, no one likes being labeled. Me included. Your skewing my words. That's just a simple fact.

Matt