The LCS Factor

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by Igzy

I have no problem with what you are saying. I was simply trying to make a suggestion to Matt which, quite honestly, I hope he will consider. Not that I want him to not post about this subject here, but that I want his ideas to have the best chance of making sense to people. Right now I think those ideas are struggling a bit

Hey, I'm a product of California public schools (Kinder through State College)..so I am very sensitive to having to struggle with all sorts of ideas! Really, I don't think it's the ideas that are struggling so much, but rather those of us on the other end that are having to grapple with the weighty consequences of idolatry. It's pretty heavy-duty stuff folks. Again, I think this is going to take some time. It's going to take some patience, and even some gritting of our teeth a little to work our way through this. Nevertheless, let's try our best to not cut light, truth and historical facts off at the pass.

Ok, I just got to review Terry's post here.

Here's the deal folks, from my perspective. I go back a ways - just about three and one half decades. I lived in "brother's houses" with more then one of the "blended brothers" before they were married, and before they were even a prominent member. I have also lived with and "mingled" with hundreds upon hundreds of us run-of-the-mill, average saints, including all you guys out there reading this post right now. I know that there is a terrible dark thread that runs through the whole thing. Sorry to be so blunt. The terrible dark thread is indeed idolatry. Idolatry of a man, a mere creation of God. There was (is) idolatry of a man's personal ministry. There was (is) idolatry of a "vision". Yes, "without a vision the people parish"...but I tell you before God right now, what good is a vision if it causes those who follow it to parish after all, and then take their family and loved ones down with them?

The Local Church that many of the younger ones here speak of is a Local Church that I do not know. Nor is it a Local Church that is reflected in the writing and speaking of the current leadership. This leads me to believe that things did not “get better” after I left. The current publications and speaking at the trainings and conferences reflect a people - a movement, that is still, to a great degree, idolizing a man and his ministry. They have replaced the Creator and His Word with a mere creation and the words that come out of the mouth of this creation. This is where the rubber meets the road as far as idolatry in the Local Church is concerned. Do we love and fear man and his words more then we love and fear God and His Word? Sorry to say, when the holy cry came: “Chose you this day whom ye will serve!” many of us failed the test. I dare not say most, but I know it was many. For sure we know that those who have taken the lead in the Local Church can be counted among the many. So, we know for sure that there was idolatry in the past, and we know for sure that there is idolatry now. To deny that there was significant idolatry in the middle defies all logic and reason, I’m afraid.

The moral of the story is that our sacred cow does not necessarily look like a golden calf, and even if it did, we would never admit that it is our sacred cow anyway.

[Paul Cox]

It may be that it is the subject of idolatry that needs its own thread, so that those of us who want to discuss abuse can do so without being burdened down by tons and tons of lengthy and convoluted posts.

Frankly, I think the book idea is a good one.

Roger

[blessD]

I have been busy so just now catching up since Monday AM. Interestingly, the subject has not changed. I enjoy reading every member's posts even if comes to mind. Someone in the last week may have mentioned this, but I attributed the abuses to false teachings. According to my experience, it fits as a root cause more than idolatry. My healing and freedom from the false teachings came through the pure Word (no footnotes needed) and support from my true friends (you know who you are).

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

... but rather those of us on the other end that are having to grapple with the weighty consequences of idolatry. It's pretty heavy-duty stuff folks. Again, I think this is going to take some time. It's going to take some patients ...

Little pun here Unto? Sometimes I feel like a "patient."

While I tend to avoid all doctors and hospitals like the plague (people die there!), my wife spends much more time with them and has this chief complaint about the medical profession -- "they don't listen to me, they think they already know what's wrong with me, especially these young doctors right out of school."

I'm starting to understand how she feels.

Repeatedly posters try to explain our symptoms. We say, "no it's not a cult, but occasionally it kind of felt like that." You can tell the "doctor" is still not listening. He has some long fancy title like "apologetics." He has already made up his mind -- I believe you have a bad case of "idolatry." No, I don't think so, doctor, I grew up with that, and this is really different. Explain to me again what "idolatry" looks like. Well, if that's true, then everyone I know has got it too. All mankind is sick with it.

Now ... when people ask how I'm doing, I just tell them "I'm fine, just gettin' old, like the rest of us." I guess I'm in denial.

[Matt Anderson]

This my response to Hope's post about God's warning through Edom. I've got a busy day ahead, so you are free from me for the day!!!

Preface: No one that I am aware of on this forum (including djohnson) is jumping on Christ in the believers or attempting to discolor the reality of the Lord in any individual's life. No one is even close to that. What is happening is that the "collective" / "corporate" aspects of the LC are being strongly challenged and how association with the LC over time will bring an individual believer into a compromised state in their relationship to the Lord. If the believer tries to recover their right standing before the Lord, the only option is to leave the LC. You cannot maintain good conscience and a right relationship with the Lord and stay in the LC. This was true in the past and it's true presently.

Hope's warning from the OT used Edom. Most know that Esau (father of the Edomites) is a type of the flesh. Galatians 5:13-26 establishes the opposition of the desires of the flesh and spirit. This is the same tension that existed between Jacob/Esau and Israel/Edom.

Hope's warning based on Edom has validity, but it must be set in context. Edom is a type of the flesh and God will completely and utterly deal with the flesh.

In type Edom's mockery and ridicule of the downfall of Judah is repugnant to God because it comes from the flesh. I don't think anyone is mocking or ridiculing Christ in us, Christ in others or even Christ in the LC and it's past. We are saying that idolatry was systematically introduced and mixed with the believers' experience of Christ. It was done in such a way that almost all were brought into idolatry within the LC from it's inception in the US.

To make a fair comparison of Hope's example with Edom, this should be juxtaposed against a prophet of God who prophecies against Israel and/or Judah. They prophecy according to the Spirit of the Lord and there is no warning for them when they speak out against God's own.

Is Hope saying that everything being said against the LC is just coming from the "flesh"? If not, how does Hope separate it out in his mind? As an estimate what percentage of what is being said is from the "flesh" versus what percentage is coming from some acting like the prophets? Jeremiah weeped because he saw the judgment coming on Judah and it broke his heart. This is from the Spirit of God. Edom mocked and ridiculed Judah when the judgment was coming. This was not from the Spirit of God, it was in the "flesh". (Note: I don't claim to be a prophet, nor do I claim to operate solely apart from the "flesh")

What will we do if and when the LC is judged? Where is our heart? Notice I say, "if". I don't presume they will be in any way that is completely obvious from an outside viewpoint.

If our words against the teachings and practices of the LC come from the "flesh" then we should integrate some Godly fear. If however, we speak more like the prophets attempting to remind a people whose ears have been closed, then we should fear not speaking more than we fear this warning from Hope.

Consider what the Lord says to Ezekiel. This is a warning too. So, I conclude that warnings from God in the OT cut in every direction.

Ezekiel 3
4 Then He said to me, 'Son of man, go to the house of Israel and speak with My words to them. 5 'For you are not being sent to a people of unintelligible speech or difficult language, but to the house of Israel, 6 nor to many peoples of unintelligible speech or difficult language, whose words you cannot understand. But I have sent you to them who should listen to you; 7 yet the house of Israel will not be willing to listen to you, since they are not willing to listen to Me. Surely the whole house of Israel is stubborn and obstinate. 8 'Behold, I have made your face as hard as their faces and your forehead as hard as their foreheads.

16 At the end of seven days the word of the LORD came to me, saying, 17 'Son of man, I have appointed you a watchman to the house of Israel; whenever you hear a word from My mouth, warn them from Me. 18 'When I say to the wicked, ‘You will surely die,’ and you do not warn him or speak out to warn the wicked from his wicked way that he may live, that wicked man shall die in his iniquity, but his blood I will require at your hand. 19 'Yet if you have warned the wicked and he does not turn from his wickedness or from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but you have delivered yourself. 20 'Again, when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and I place an obstacle before him, he will die; since you have not warned him, he shall die in his sin, and his righteous deeds which he has done shall not be remembered; but his blood I will require at your hand. 21 'However, if you have warned the righteous man that the righteous should not sin and he does not sin, he shall surely live because he took warning; and you have delivered yourself.'

27 'But when I speak to you, I will open your mouth and you will say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord GOD.’ He who hears, let him hear; and he who refuses, let him refuse; for they are a rebellious house.

Matt

[Matt Anderson]

Originally Posted by Hope

In parallel thinking, it also would seem that one bad family is enough to label the whole bunch. Therefore should all memory of anything of Christ be obliterated? Could it be that the use of such explosive language as “child molestation” would have the effect of wiping out any testimony that was there? Could it be that contending that four churches with all their elders present was for the purpose of completely discrediting all leadership and all churches in the Texas area?

What testimony is Hope referring to? Is he referring the testimony of the saints who have passed through the fire and who have been purified by the Lord? Or is he referring to the testimony of the group as a collective?

If it is a reference to the "testimony" of the individual saints and the Lord in their lives, then there is absolutely no disagreement.

However, If it is a reference to the "testimony" of the group as a collective, then it is quite another thing. We move closer to the heart of the problem and why I think there is still a thought being held that is wrong according to the Lord.

I would like ask an open question to Hope under the assumption that part of what he is referring to is the "collective" / "corporate" aspect

1. What do you propose we should keep from the "collective" / "corporate" experience of the LC? Let us see it and inspect it in the light of God's Word. Please be as specific as possible. This is a kind of challenge, but not because I am trying to cause you a problem. I really want to know what are the good things you are holding onto from the "collective" / "corporate" experience of the LC.

[Matt Anderson]

I really do understand the reactions to what I am saying. I get it. I also get the idea that a number of people don't like this and would prefer to just see it go away.

No one should change your mind if they cannot persuade you based on the Word of God and the Spirit shining light into your heart. So, I have little to no expectation that I will change anyone's mind who is convinced otherwise.

Igzy is right there is a lot of base material that needs to be introduced and this topic is confusing, difficult and charged. Given these three (confusion, difficulty, and charged) and combining them with the fact that this is the most important thing to God from a "No-No" point of view I think we should endeavor to keep looking at it.

Matt

[Paul Cox]

Originally Posted by Matt

1. What do you propose we should keep from the "collective" / "corporate" experience of the LC? Let us see it and inspect it in the light of God's Word. Please be as specific as possible. This is a kind of challenge, but not because I am trying to cause you a problem. I really want to know what are the good things you are holding onto from the "collective" / "corporate" experience of the LC.

Matt,
Are you kidding? Even djohnson has recalled in the past some positive things that we gained from the "collective"/"corporate" experience of the Local Church. This is the problem with your approach. You come in with elbows flying, insisting upon drawing a line in the sand, as if you are an Old Testament prophet who's gotten THE word from on high. Please re-consider.

I know my words may be futile here because you have the favor of the administration. But please consider beginning a whole new thread on this matter of idolatry. Please don't insist that all of the abuse in the Living Stream Church has to be summed up in the one word, "idolatry."

Some of us have slightly different point of views, and some of us have other aspects of abuse that we would like to discuss. If every time we come here to do so, we have to wade through volumes of lengthy posts, on the one subject of “idolatry,” I'm afraid we will just go away. Do we want a ghost town like exists over at Berean?

Sorry you don’t have time to write a book. But it’s not fair to drop it on our heads, one mega-post at a time. All here may not have in common the fact of paying for this forum. But most of us have in common that we have spent at least a decade or two, or three of our adult lives in the group being discussed. Please don’t drown us out on the abuse thread.

Roger

[Matt Anderson]

Originally Posted by Roger

Matt,
Are you kidding? Even djohnson has recalled in the past some positive things that we gained from the "collective"/"corporate" experience of the Local Church. This is the problem with your approach. You come in with elbows flying, insisting upon drawing a line in the sand, as if you are an Old Testament prophet who's gotten THE word from on high. Please re-consider.

Roger

Your characterization of me (my person) is false. My elbows aren't flying. I'm not slapping anyone around. I'm not even claiming to be any kind of OT prophet. I think I specifically noted this fact.

In your reaction you are closer to doing this than what I am doing. Sorry, Roger, if this whole subject is upsetting you and the things I am saying are also upsetting you.

I am not like Lee. I have zero control over you. I cannot exercise any authority over anyone here. I'm not asking the owner of this site to support what I am saying. I'm not asking anyone to support what I am saying. If I am flat wrong, then okay. I can live with that and the only loss is to me.

In your responses your simply asking me to "shut up". I am not asking the same thing of you. Your responses are welcome and the reader will benefit from them. These things should be weighed out properly in the hearts and minds of each person before the Lord. In the process, you can call me anything you want. I may object to some of your characterizations of my person. That's my right.

But, prove me wrong. I've never said there was no value in the "corporate" / "collective" aspect of the LC. I've asked what some are holding valuable because depending upon what aspects are held valuable there could be a real problem. There's a big difference if you read what I'm actually saying and don't just react to it, because you don't like my thought about it.

Matt

[Paul Cox]

Originally Posted by Matt

Your characterization of me (my person) is false. My elbows aren't flying. I'm not slapping anyone around. I'm not even claiming to be any kind of OT prophet. I think I specifically noted this fact.

Well, Matt, that response is about what I expected. There is no reasoning with you. So from this point on I'll just say:

what...ever. Do as you like on your forum.

Roger

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Roger

Matt,
Are you kidding? Even djohnson has recalled in the past some positive things that we gained from the "collective"/"corporate" experience of the Local Church. This is the problem with your approach. You come in with elbows flying, insisting upon drawing a line in the sand, as if you are an Old Testament prophet who's gotten THE word from on high. Please re-consider ... I know my words may be futile here because you have the favor of the administration. But please consider beginning a whole new thread on this matter of idolatry. Please don't insist that all of the abuse in the Living Stream Church has to be summed up in the one word, "idolatry." Some of us have slightly different point of views ...

With Matt's present approach regarding idolatry, he has growing similarity to the late Jim Moran. Both of whose views I have had to protest, because of the unbalanced extremes they presented. One of the common threads with them both is that neither had any positive experiences in the LC's, that I have heard of. Their point of view is not balanced by anything sweet of Christ.

Even with all the abuse and improprieties of LC leadership, I still received Christ from LC ministries. I still had many experiences of the anointing in LC meetings. The Lord spoke to me so many times. I had so many precious times with wonderful saints. All the precious times I have had must temper my critiques, or else I am neither fair nor honest.

Neither Jim Moran nor Matt are guided by these experiences. Their writings display this.

[Thankful Jane]

Originally Posted by Ohio

The Lord spoke to me so many times. I had so many precious times with wonderful saints. All the precious times I have had must temper my critiques, or else I am neither fair nor honest.

Yes, Ohio. No one is saying we did not experience the Lord there. I am not saying that. There was a mixture of both things there. Jesus and a system that would not allow Jesus to be King over each of us.

This is the problem we are talking about. We need to understand what happened there. I was loving Jesus, reading my Bible, reading other's Christian testimonies, loving the brothers and sisters and sharing what I was enjoying from times with the Lord in the Word. I was starting to find my freedom in Christ and realizing I did not have to submit to what men were telling me was God with regard to my practical life. I had not one thought against Witness Lee. I spoke not one word against Witness Lee. I was enjoying God and my Christian family. Then came the ax. It was wielded by the power invested in the hierarchy and I bowed to it and kept my face in that dirt until God mercifully lifted me up out of the pit I had been left in.

Should that have happened? Of course not. That was spiritual abuse, pure and simply. This kind of behavior does not belong in the body of Christ. It is Mystery Babylon the Great behavior. We have to face it. It was present among us. We have to get free to the core from the principles that allow the mystery of iniquity to work among us.

The devil's targets: those who are loving and walking with Jesus.

Tools to accomplish this:

. men with who will practice hierachy among brothers and who are coveting something other than pleasing God only and can be influenced by money

. men who want to be told by others what to do to please God

. men who want to be more "special" to God than others, (who want to sit on the left and right hand of Jesus)

We need to learn our lessons so we can have wonderful experiences of Christ together without the devil making inroads and destroying the basic building blocks of the kingdom of God: you and me walking with Jesus.

Thankful Jane