The LCS Factor

[TLFisher]

Last night Roger said:

"We cannot paint them all with a broad brush."

This morning Matt said:

"Idolatry is not about completely abandoning God. It's about who you rely on. Do you really think there are many in the LC who are relying totally on God or have they been led astray to relying on the "Minister of the Age" and their membership in the "Recovery"."

Peter said:

"I was not raised on "Truth Lessons" etc... in Cleveland And I was not raised on Witness Lee. The bible studies we had in high school were Word-centered, "

Matt, I do understand what you're saying, but I do agree with what Roger said; you cannot paint everyone with a broad brush.

I can totally relate to Peter. I was not raised on Witness Lee and I was not raised on Watchman Nee. Living in Alburquerque (73-75) and later in Anaheim (76-79), Witness Lee and Watchman Nee were just authors of books my parents had on their bookshelf. I didn't know the correlation between the books and the local church until I was in junior high. Even attending conferences listening to Witness Lee speak was no big deal. He was just a different brother speaking than I had been used to. In high school, when the SSOT started in 84, the focus was on the New Testament. Primarily in the Book of Romans. In the Young People's Conference, the brother who took care of the high school brothers from my locality encouraged and challenged us to read the Bible clear through from Genesis to Revelation.

I believe the points Matt was making is directed at the minority rather than the majority. Those that appear to be relying on what Witness Lee said or didn't say, need to be cared for. These ones need to be taken care of in a simple way. The ministry is a tool to help people know the Lord. The ministry of Witness Lee is not meant to replace ones faith, nor to become a crutch in their personal relationship with the Lord. Sure in the local churches many have an appreciation for Witness Lee's portion, but do they idolize him? The majority does not.

Just to provide a concluding word, when I was at the West Coast Conference this past July, a brother spoke a word of appreciation for brother Kaung. Just as with Witness Lee, one could easily lift up Stephen Kaung without knowing how it might effect other believers. When we assemble, sure we can appreciate certain ministries privately, but there's only one whose name needs to be lifted up and that's Jesus Christ.

[Matt Anderson]

Originally Posted by Terry

I believe the points Matt was making is directed at the minority rather than the majority. Those that appear to be relying on what Witness Lee said or didn't say, need to be cared for. These ones need to be taken care of in a simple way. The ministry is a tool to help people know the Lord. The ministry of Witness Lee is not meant to replace ones faith, nor to become a crutch in their personal relationship with the Lord. Sure in the local churches many have an appreciation for Witness Lee's portion, but do they idolize him? The majority does not.

My points I am making are directed at the systematic introduction of idolatry that will bring the majority into it. I believe that in fact, it did bring the majority into it. Steering clear of it was the the minority. I think all the evidence, including the speaking of many on these forums supports this conclusion.

My initial reaction to this thread and my decision to post here was based on a key fact. Hope was trying to exclude his locality from the rest of the Texas bunch. I stood up in opposition to this attempt. The reason I did is not because Dallas was the best or worst, but because it was part of a whole set of churches that were under the strong sway of an idolatrous system that was engineered and whose engineering started all the way back in the mid-60's.

In taking this stance, it has swept everyone into the problem. No one gets away "clean". I realized that this would happen from the beginning.

The objections have come from many directions because no one wants to be included in this grouping (idolatry), just like no one wants to be included in the label (cult).

In the past, I was unable to tell others that I grew up in a Christian cult/sect. I've still gone back and forth on whether it was a cult or a sect, but one thing is sure. I've become comfortable with admitting that I grew up in an abberant christian group (whether you call it a cult or a sect). This is just a basic fact. It's not something you can move around.

There is an effort by at least some to paint themselves out of this picture and into a prettier picture. Personally, I feel that this should be resisted because there are so many facts and so much anecdotal evidence that points the other way.

Matt

P.S. I do think I am going to open another thread and start introducing some things that are "background material" based primarily on the Word of God. These background materials form part of reason why I am pointing strongly at idolatry at this time. This could take me months to complete, but I've been encouraged by no less than 10-15 people to write a book on this subject. My response has always been the same. I don't have time, but the truth is that working one piece at a time I do have the time. The primary subject is not exactly "idolatry" but it ties in very heavily.

P.S.S. I've started a TOC (table of contents) on this book about 2 or 3 times, but never finished. I may introduce a table of contents as a structure and go from there. But on another thread...

[OBW]

Originally Posted by Matt

The objections have come from many directions because no one wants to be included in this grouping (idolatry), just like no one wants to be included in the label (cult).

This is statement is one of the reasons you are getting so much push-back. You are accusing us of avoiding this because we want to avoid the label ourselves. That is a lie. We have all said the opposite.

The problem is that you are bringing the definition to the level at which no one escapes, yet you want to point at someone else. If we are going to look at it at this most general level, then you are responsible for yourself and I am responsible for myself. Get your own sackcloth and ashes. Don’t throw yours on me. I have enough of my own.

You’ve got a serious thing to consider. What you feel is right you have to stick to. But when there is a preponderance of others who disagree, you have to determine what is happening. Are they merely blind? Or is there a better sense in the group than in the individual?

Either can be correct.

Now, while I do not rank any of us with the various scholars who write, I do note that we tend to accept the common position more than the lone position. (Following Lee was surely an exception on many issues.) Are you so clear that your sense of the situation is right and everyone else is wrong?

Most of us have agreed with the varying levels of idolatry that you have brought forward. But we disagree that it is as meaningful as a systemic thing when you get to the level where every sin is effectively linked to idolatry. We also agree that we can fully see how certain ones clearly abdicated their following of Christ to follow Lee and his ministry. But what we “obviously” see now has not always been so obvious. Few saw the things that we now speak of as facts. They were somewhat hidden. The fact that those persons were mostly the leadership and set the direction for the LC does not make the rest willing idolaters at the same level.

As I pointed out previously, most have followed they way they do because they have understood scripture to say what Lee’s teachings did. That was not because they worshipped Lee, but because they were fooled by his ways of speaking. Lee and the leadership are the workers. The rest are the farm, the building. The workers are judged harshly for the wood, hay and stubble that they use in building. That passage in 1 Cor 3 is not about you and me. It is about Lee and Benson and the other leaders.

So other than finding this kind of idolatry at the core of the leadership, it is fairly well certain that the thing this thread is about, the failures in the second generation, are only remotely connected to that and are more definitely connected to a multitude of different things at the case-by-case level. Some of those are full of LC problems, some little.

You feel so strongly to stand up to anyone with whom you disagree. I can do the same. Someone has to stop this. And a bunch of us have tried. You are not the arbiter of right and wrong. You have no separate standing to stop anyone, be it Don, SC, Ohio, or me. You are speaking for yourself. I believe that I am speaking consistent with a significant number of people who have said in one way or another that this is not right. It’s your turn to back down. Your continuance in this line is coming through as arrogance. If the “body” is speaking, it is you that is not listening. If you consider your calling above that, then consider Lee and his ways. He took no counsel from anyone. Are you headed there?

It might be best if the chirping of crickets is the only response.

[SpeakersCorner]

Chirp ... chirp ... chirp ...

[Cal]

I've always found when I start my own thread on a subject I'm interested in that I have a little more leverage on where it goes. An idolatry thread could easily be initiated in Matt's name and relevant posts copied over through the technical wonders of board admininstration software. Just a humble suggestion.

Frankly, I've never know what this thread has been about. What does does "The LCS Factor" mean, anyway? Sounds like a TV drama. For that matter, what does "LCS" stand for? I'm really confused. Perhaps that's the reason I've introduced so many irrelevancies here.

[Matt Anderson]

Originally Posted by Igzy

I've always found when I start my own thread on a subject I'm interested in that I have a little more leverage on where it goes. An idolatry thread could easily be initiated in Matt's name and relevant posts copied over through the technical wonders of board admininstration software. Just a humble suggestion.

Frankly, I've never know what this thread has been about. What does does "The LCS Factor" mean, anyway? Sounds like a TV drama. For that matter, what does "LCS" stand for? I'm really confused. Perhaps that's the reason I've introduced so many irrelevancies here.

Igzy,

We've gotten stuck on idolatry simply because it was posited as a source / root cause of some of the damage done to the 2nd generation of LCer's, due to what the 1st generation of LCer's got themselves mixed up in (knowingly or unknowingly).

Specifically, we've gotten stuck on the fact that there was a system of idolatry implemented over the course of the years (i.e. what I see as a big part of the LCS Factor) that has had a large impact on individuals and families.

The only reason I haven't gone to another thread is because everything about idolatry has come up in context of the impacts of the Local Church System on the 2nd generation of the LC.

Idolatry is a topic that can stand on it's own, but it is the very connection of this subject to the context of the LC that makes it so important (and yes, touchy).

I realize that your suggestion is an attempt to 'moderate' the situation and it's not a bad suggestion. I don't think the context should be lost in any transition if it is going to happen.

djohnson,

Do you want me to go elsewhere with this subject?

Matt

[Cal]

So, what does "LCS Factor" mean?

[Thankful Jane]

Originally Posted by blessD

I have been busy so just now catching up since Monday AM. Interestingly, the subject has not changed. I enjoy reading every member's posts even if comes to mind. Someone in the last week may have mentioned this, but I attributed the abuses to false teachings. According to my experience, it fits as a root cause more than idolatry. My healing and freedom from the false teachings came through the pure Word (no footnotes needed) and support from my true friends (you know who you are).

Hi BlessD,

I wish this was a dead horse. The problem it is that it is very much alive. It’s like trying to put a halter on a horse while hecklers are popping out from behind bushes and throwing rocks at it. J

The beating of the dead horse smilie makes me think of what happened to you and me and many others. The guy with the stick is a priest in the Babylonian priesthood. He just swung away while we laid there passively like a dead horse. Only, we weren’t dead and felt every blow. Today, when dead horses start speaking about the stick (false teachings) and the authority structure that has the power to wield it (the ruling class), those who treasure the man and the stick start screaming foul play. Go figure.

So, yes, I also believe that the abuse is laid primarily at the feet of false teachings. My posts on idolatry have mainly been about pointing out the idolatrous Babylonian religion style system that gave the teachers the power to embed these false teachings into our hearts and minds as being words from God and then to abuse us when we deviated.

That is the idolatry I’m talking about and that is why I'm talking about it and calling it what it is. We all were in that structure (except SC who managed to do his own thing. Good for him.) That is the all I’m talking about. If anyone out there can tell us you were fully committed to the LC vision and were not in or under the leadership structure there, please speak up (again, SC excepted.)

What am I doing? What is Matt doing? We are attempting to nail down the characteristics of an idolatrous leadership practice, so we can flee from those that practice such things. Without false teachers who have the power to shape a man’s mind because he’s given away his power, false teachings don’t get very far. Neither does spiritual abuse. We need to be able to nip the Babylonian principles in the bud.

Satan is afraid we will do this. He doesn’t want to lose his ability to write things into our hearts and minds like he was god. He knows that this is exactly what God will do when we are fully yielded to Him and treasure His pure word.

That is what the fight on this forum is about. It is not flesh and blood but prinicipalities and powers who do not want the light to shine on their deceitful methods, of which we are all victims. If we don't see these principles clearly and understand at a core level what went wrong we will circle this way again.

The fact is that the LC leadership was and is, a very, very, sick idolatrous system. People who yield to it's control get sick also.

The LC leadership has a track record of targeting the faithful after getting their orders to do so straight from hell. There is a trail of blood that cannot be hidden.

Thankful Jane

[SpeakersCorner]

Originally Posted by Thankful Jane

The LC leadership has a track record of targeting the faithful after getting their orders to do so straight from hell. There is a trail of blood that cannot be hidden.

Scene in hell:

Demon Zula: Hey, Zanatron, you got anything scheduled for today?

Demon Zanatron: (Checking Blackberry). Just a couple lawyers at 2:00. Why?

Zula: The Master wants an interaction with the LSM gang up on La Palma.

Zanatron: (Groaning) Not them again. I’ve had it with those guys. They can’t get anything right.

Zula: Whachutalkinabout?

Zanatron: Would you cool it with the Gary Coleman stuff? You don’t even sound like him. Plus he’s like twenty years out of date.

Zula: Whatever. Anyway, what’s your problem with the LSM gang? They’re cooperative.

Zanatron: To a fault. Like when I gave them the directive about the Q, --

Zula: Q?

Zanaton: Quarantine. When I told them it was the slickest way to rid themselves of the TC problem, what do they do? They pull this “One Publication” thing out of their rears.

Zula: One Pub? What’s wrong with that? It worked, didn’t it?

Zanatron: (Sticking a marshmellow on his pitchfork which he then stokes in the fire.) Worked? They had to run up to Canada to hold the trial. How pathetic.

Zula: (Firing a flaming dart into the ether) Hey, if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it.

Zanatron: (Pulls marshmellow from pitchfork and eats it delicately) I’m tired of the whole mess. Just once I’d like to work with a decent man, someone who didn’t hide behind faux rationales and idiotic symbols.

Zula: Hm. A Don Corleone type?

Zanatron: (Grabs his Blackberry) Uh-oh, I’m getting something from the boss. (Reading) “Get up to the Bereans forum and stir up some dust about idolatry … IMMEDIATELY!”

Zula: The Bereans?

Zanatron: He means that new site. He can never remember.

Zula: Well, I’ve got some good news for you.

Zanatron: (Putting on his hat and grabbing a whip) What’s that?

Zula: No need to head to the site: they’re already knee-deep in idolatry dust.

Zanatron: No kidding? (Taking off hat and hanging whip back on hook) And they’ll probably blame us.

Zula: Hey, if it gets you an afternoon off, don’t complain. Me, I’ve got to go to Denver.

Zanatron: I feel your pain. (He places another marshmellow on pitchfork, yelping in pain as he accidentally singes his finger)

Fade out.

[Matt Anderson]

Originally Posted by OBW

This is statement is one of the reasons you are getting so much push-back. You are accusing us of avoiding this because we want to avoid the label ourselves. That is a lie. We have all said the opposite.

Please show me one place you have said the opposite. I'm curious to see a quote on this one.

I'm not accusing you avoiding a label. I said, no one likes being labeled. Me included. Your skewing my words. That's just a simple fact.

Matt

[OBW]

Originally Posted by Matt

Please show me one place you have said the opposite. I'm curious to see a quote on this one.

You want quotes? Virtually every one of my posts agrees with the general contention, just not the method of application. We’ll start with the one you just responded to.

#587 “The problem is that you are bringing the definition to the level at which no one escapes, yet you want to point at someone else. If we are going to look at it at this most general level, then you are responsible for yourself and I am responsible for myself. Get your own sackcloth and ashes. Don’t throw yours on me. I have enough of my own.”

The then one yesterday: #550 “When we willfully sin, we have clearly turned our hearts from God. That is, by definition, lowering God’s status in our hearts. So in the broader sense of the term, every sin involves idolatry. So, if every sin is idolatry, why isn’t every call for repentance put in terms of turning from idolatry? A few put it in the mix in relation to certain things, but not as an umbrella under which all sins could be found.”

Do you see me wiggling out of either of these?

I’m not going back further than that. You can do it on your own. Your response to me suggests that you are not actually reading what I say, just responding to my displeasure in the course this has taken. Deny it if you will, but your response above is its own evidence for my statement.

Take offense in that statement if you will. To paraphrase someone else’s statements here, I’ve just got to stop this nonsense. Sound familiar? Well, it cuts both ways. I’ve got the same rights you claim to have. And by the way, the last time you trotted that “stop someone” line out, concerning the Dallas thing earlier, you were very wrong, and were party to a gross fallacy of logic. And you never admitted it, but simply quit the argument and turned to this. It’s high time you admit your own bull-headedness rather than accusing the rest of us of avoiding the broader definition of idolatry. It never happened.

The fact is, that while we despised the interference of the BARM super-moderators, left to our own devices, there is beginning to be an undesirable flavor here. This was not the first, although it is hard to compare any others to it. We have thrown off the shackles of the BARM, and even managed to leave enough of the actual LC group behind that we suddenly have little boundary except our own consciences. Those may be failing. There is a bit of a “I’ll be damned if anyone is going to stop me now” attitude that is beginning to rule. Well, you seem to have elected yourself as the stopper of others. You need to listen to someone else at least occasionally. This is probably just such a time.

[Matt Anderson]

Originally Posted by OBW

Do you see me wiggling out of either of these?

No. I don't see you wiggling out of anything. I just wanted to see some instances where you felt you were in agreement. I did not remember them off-hand.

I read your whole post. I went back and read it again just a minute ago and realized I had missed one of your questions. While you were posting, I was PMing and it's in your inbox right now.

I will reiterate the fact that the broad definition I have used, I have also pointed at myself (not just others). Capiche?

It is true I have avoided some of your comments. If there are ones that you still consider important, please put them forward and I'll address them. If you want to point out a particular logical fallacy that is clear and ask me to admit to it, then fine. I'll admit to it.

Matt

[Thankful Jane]

The second generation of LCers are the result of growing up in religious environment that was majorly out of whack with God and the Bible. It was a mixture of the things of God with the ways of the devil. In this environment many children were neglected, treated as objects of "authority" needing to be subdued, and were left with deep rooted false beliefs about the nature and character of God as a result. I'll say more about this later. Like glue that held the hold place together, the religious control exercised over families by the leadership hierarchy is a fundamental cause of these problems.

Before I say more in this vein in another post, let me say this is not about condemning a group, this is about educating ourselves. We need to be educated about what produces religiously abusive environments. Our situation is not the first, nor will it be the last. We need to learn something from all of this. Here are characteristics we need to be able to spot a mile away, even in seed form. They do not belong anywhere in the body of Christ.

Characteristics of an idolatrous system which the Bible calls mystery Babylon the Great:

1. A consecrated hierarchy of men in willing and absolute submission to those above them who actively and vigilantly silence, subdue, and conquer the common people in line with their prime religious directive. They accept no responsibility for the actions they take which are dictated by their superiors. They believe they will not give account for such actions because they are obeying others and acting on God’s behalf.

2. A body of leavened teachings by one man, who is considered to be the mouthpiece of God on the earth, which is systematically written in the hearts and minds of adherents day after day and never questioned.

3. Common people, held by fear, who are willingly submitted to leavened false teachings and false teachers and who believe they are submitting to God in doing so.

4. An absolute consecration to a God-given vision of the church that is uniquely theirs, one that makes them unique and special, superior to other Christians.

5. Teachings and practices that tolerate sexual sin among believers.

6. Taking financial advantage of God’s people for the financial gain of those at high levels of the hierarchy who handle monies without open public accountability.

I am sure that there are some who can truthfully claim that they did not absolutely follow Lee's teachings in heart and mind, but I don't believe there are hardly any who can claim that they were not in or under the LC leadership hierarchy (other than SC). Those who openly resisted were rejected overtly. If their resistance was passive, they survived longer. To continue to submit meant more and more compromise of conscience.

For an example of how this works on individuals in the system, just ask those elders who hid the sin of a Texas elder at the dictate of Lee and had to lie from that day forward to cover up this deed. Ten years down the road that decision and related lies resulted in the destruction of two LC families.

For an example of how this works on a mass scale and what happens when there is resistance to it, take a look at the wielding of unholy authority at Whistler and the subsequent demand for the masses to line up behind that public horse whipping and continue to beat that horse until it couldn’t move any more. As we post here today, who is still suffering from that? Families and brethren who were divided as a result.

When you any of see these characteristics at work, you can call it whatever you want, only flee it and purge your mind of any leaven that got sown into it while subject to its darkness. God calls it idolatry. The Spirit calls it Mystery Babylon the Great and cries out, “Come out of her my people that you be not partakers of her sins and of her plagues.”

Thankful Jane