Andy Anderson on the "Overcomers"

[aron]

Originally Posted by OBW

You may not like it, but to me, the level to which the search for details not provided is in the "it doesn't matter" category. And it does not fly in the face of what Jesus said to Nicodemus, or Paul said to the Corinthians.

OBW,

I know you are not addressing my points, so I may be off the mark by addressing yours as if they pertain to mine. But I shall, anyway.

My quibble with the Nee/Lee school is because I like it. I like how they stressed responsibility, reward, and warning of loss to the believers. There seems to be at least some biblical ground for making those points, and saying that they fit alongside eternal life, as we understand it (I know Lee made a straw man out of "christianity" and acted as if they didn't discuss christian responsibility, when actually they do. Still, the subject remains valid).

The subject is important, even if some of it is covered scantily in the Bible and subsequent Christian writings. If I ask, "What does it mean to owe 100 measures of wheat, versus 50?", from the parable in Luke 16, I am not "off the reservation". What does "many stripes" mean versus "few stripes" mean in Luke 12? If Jesus taught on it, I am not beyond bounds at least considering it.

But our dilemma is that with this topic, you have to piece together a composite picture. Therefore I think that any treatment should be scholarly (broad, careful, reasoned) and very tentative. We should do a lot of thinking and have little confidence. Lee, on the other hand, did little scholarship and had lots of confidence. So we got taken in by his "confidence game" (pun intended). Lee said "This means that" and that was that.

I think what happens today and what happens after we die are connected. That was part of the message of Jesus, and of those who followed him. And death is a big deal, even to the unbelievers. But "what happens after we die" is at best, very vague, from our perspective. So we should be somewhat modest about making any bold assertions. Love one another, treat each other with respect, try to live properly, believe in Jesus. And carefully and humbly consider what Jesus' parables might have meant to those who listened to Him. I don't think we have exhausted the subject. And I do think it bears on our daily living.

[OBW]

Originally Posted by aron

I know you are not addressing my points, so I may be off the mark by addressing yours as if they pertain to mine. But I shall, anyway.

There is something to be said for considering what is reward and what is (or might be) punishment for those who are actually "in."

The thing is that we don't need paradise or heaven defined to deal with them.

And at the same time, we aren't even sure how to read some of them no matter when any alleged punishment might happen.

And if we want to discuss "when," I'm not sure that it is specifically defined. Maybe it actually happens after death and before the resurrection. (That would coincide with the Catholic purgatory without taking on all of their baggage.) Or maybe it is during the 1,000 years (assuming that this is actual and not metaphorical — not saying, just noting some uncertainty).

There is a reference to outer darkness and to weeping and gnashing of teeth. We like to read that parable as clearly talking about the saved (because of the word "servant"). But there were 12 disciples and one of them was taken over by Satan and betrayed Jesus. Yes, that was before salvation as we know it. . . . Or was it? Are we entirely sure that we know what it all means?

What about salvation. Grace? No works? Then what about "working out your salvation?

These are at least somewhat important. They deal with your life and your after-life. But the difference between heaven and paradise does not really deal with meaningful issues for this life. It is angels on a pin. There may be an answer. But knowing it gives no brownie points and doesn't help anyone be closer to God.

I cannot say that I buy Lee's version of some of those parables. At least not entirely. But I have never heard anyone deal with them in a way that is completely cohesive.

But, having said that, I understand what the thrust of them is. It is to be righteous, watching, etc., now in this life. I don't need to understand little dark rooms or summer school to figure that out.

Sometimes a warning is just that — a warning. It needs no dissection. trying to pick your way through the minutia to arrive at the entire knowledge of it seems like trying to figure out what you can get away with and still meet the criteria. (Not saying you are doing this.) But if your goal is to follow, then it would seem that being warned is sufficient. I don't want weeping and gnashing of teeth. I prefer to leave the details of what that really means undiscovered. Forever.

That was the message. "Don't go there." "Avoid that!" "Do what the master commands." (Oddly despising works is contrary to what the master commands.) The message is not to figure out how there is some literal outer darkness where you will weep and gnash your teeth — and get all of its details correct.

So, to the extent that we take these words and heed the warning, we are wise. To the extent that we try to build a novel out of a couple of paragraphs, it won't hurt us (probably not) but neither will it help us. But it might take our eyes off of the goal of obedience that was the command to be followed.

You don't need to respond. I think we are essentially on the same page.

[aron]

In Acts 24:25 Paul was lecturing the governor Felix on righteousness, self-control, and the judgment to come. Felix became nervous and said, "Okay, Paul, that's enough for now!"

What a gospel that Paul preached... may we all be blessed with such hearts, lips and tongues!

What I love about the Bible is that it often gives us such bare sketches: here Paul is presenting Felix with "the judgment to come", but we get no details. Yet we see its effect on the governor. Felix was supposed to be judging Paul, yet when God though Paul's words began to judge Felix, he was clearly affected.

So I agree with the point of OBW that the details in and of themselves are not requisite. For example, we don't see them in Acts 24:25, yet we see their power. May God's Word so touch our hearts.