I love the local church

[SavedbyGrace]

Originally Posted by Igzy

If LCers are expert at anything, it is at being content with being ignorant.

Originally Posted by Igzy

RE: My last post.

I did not mean to be insulting. I did mean to be terse, but I realize what I wrote can sound like an insult.

It wasn't. It's just my observation from watching every single pro-LSM poster on this board. That they are massively uninformed and seemingly content to be so.

Think about it. These people are devoting their lives, and severely restricting their lives, in service of a movement they haven't even done their homework on.

Does that make any sense?

Originally Posted by Ohio

For the most part, this is a survival skill for those under oppressive regimes.

Those who have lived in communist countries have learned that certain knowledge about their leaders is dangerous because what one knows might be accidentally spoken. Hence, for the most part, they choose to survive by living in a type of contented ignorance.

Originally Posted by Ohio

Having the internet at one's disposal, this today seems almost absurd, but ......

Originally Posted by Igzy

To me the internet has meant... ignorance is no longer ever an excuse on any subject.

One person makes a statement and another person reinforces it. Then it is accepted as fact.

How do you define ignorant? Do you know everything about everyone whose messages you read? Can I infer from your statement that all members of the Pentecostal churches are ignorant if they do not know the life history of Agnes Ozman or Charles Parham or many of the other early members in Pentecostal churches? Does everyone who hear a song by Hillsong know the story of all people involved in Hillsong?

Anyways, none of this matters because each local church is administered locally, each answering to the Lord. I do not wish to nor should interfere in the other local churches.

[SavedbyGrace]

Originally Posted by Ohio

When I devoted my life to "Christ and the church," in a sense, I did my homework! I was with these brothers day-in and day-out. I saw the godly manner of life of many brother and sister, including our leaders.

What was never really investigated was WL/LSM. We took the recommendations of local leaders, and kind of like a snowball rolling down the hill, each new brother in the church began to sing the praises of the ministry of WL, and attend trainings in Anaheim.

If I understand correctly, you enjoyed fellowship with brothers in your locality, all of whom were faithful Christians and led lives above reproach. Then, you heard about certain incidents related to brothers in another locality, who you may or may not have met. So, you do your research about the brothers in the other locality and decide to leave the church in your locality.

I would not do this, esp. if I argue that each local church is administered locally, answering to the Lord. My being a part of the local church will not be dependent on incidents/elders/leading brothers in another locality. I am not saying that you are wrong. This is just my understanding.

[SavedbyGrace]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Like I said earlier, there are some flaws in the local churches. And, there certainly would be flaws or else we would be raptured. But, I have not seen any other church/denomination where I have seen a richer enjoyment of Christ.

Originally Posted by Igzy

Here's the problem I have with your testimony, SbG. It's all about you feeling good and warm and fuzzy. There's nothing in it about God changing you or anyone else.

If feeling good and warm and fuzzy equals enjoyment of Christ, you do not need anything else.

Originally Posted by Igzy

Let me ask you something. How are you with people who are different than you? Can you spend time with them? Can you see them as people the Lord loves? Do you love them? How has the Lord changed your heart in regards to people?

I do not know about saints in the local churches in the US. But, in my country, you cannot live an isolated life interacting only with members of local churches. I spend more time with unbelievers (at work) during my usual day than even with my family members. If I can co-exist with unbelievers, why can't I co-exist with believers who are not from local churches?
Few of my relatives are in the denominations and most of the other relatives are from Catholic or other such churches. I love them all. How can you stop loving someone just because they do not come to the local church?

But, if we discussed teachings/beliefs, there are differences.
If someone argues that one man leading the church is fine, I would tell him that I don't agree.
If someone tells me that the churches should have a name, I cannot agree.

Originally Posted by Igzy

From what I've seen of LRCers, they are quite happy with each other. Why? Because everyone thinks and believes the same thing. No one rocks the boat. There are few challenges to your reality. It's all in a bubble, and when someone threatens the bubble, you all just retreat further into it, and boot out "dissenters."

The Lord didn't approach things that way at all. He was able to mingle with just about everyone. He was out in the community. He didn't see us and them. Can you make the same claim?

I don't see how, when your whole claim to fame is that you are unlike anyone else. Except when you want to gloss over your failings. Then you are (aw shucks) just like everyone else.

I don't know whether all saints in all local churches are as happy as you make them out to be. I wish I could say you were right but unfortunately, you are not. I know that many local churches have issues. And, I am not surprised either because as long as we remain in our human bodies, we will have issues.

Originally Posted by Igzy

I don't see how, when your whole claim to fame is that you are unlike anyone else. Except when you want to gloss over your failings. Then you are (aw shucks) just like everyone else.

Once I went to the house of a couple who come to my local church. I was accompanied by a full time serving brother. The full time serving brother was from Taiwan and had completed his FTTT.

The brother from the local church asked the Taiwanese brother whether only saints from the local churches were going to be with the Lord at his return. And, the full time serving Taiwanese brother replied that it was not true. Just because you were in the local churches does not guarantee anything. It is all about your enjoyment and growth in the Lord.
The brother from the local church had another question, 'then why should we be in the local church?' And, the Taiwanese brother replied that in the local church, you have more opportunity to be perfected.

So, I know for a fact that in my local church, we do not teach that the local church is issuing visas to New Jerusalem. And, this is true even for the one brothers who had completed the FTT from Taiwan. I cannot talk for the other saints in the other local churches.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Ohio

When I devoted my life to "Christ and the church," in a sense, I did my homework! I was with these brothers day-in and day-out. I saw the godly manner of life of many brother and sister, including our leaders.

What was never really investigated was WL/LSM. We took the recommendations of local leaders, and kind of like a snowball rolling down the hill, each new brother in the church began to sing the praises of the ministry of WL, and attend trainings in Anaheim.

Originally Posted by SavedbyGrace

If I understand correctly, you enjoyed fellowship with brothers in your locality, all of whom were faithful Christians and led lives above reproach. Then, you heard about certain incidents related to brothers in another locality, who you may or may not have met. So, you do your research about the brothers in the other locality and decide to leave the church in your locality.

I would not do this, esp. if I argue that each local church is administered locally, answering to the Lord. My being a part of the local church will not be dependent on incidents/elders/leading brothers in another locality. I am not saying that you are wrong. This is just my understanding.

SavedByGrace, these ones were not just "brothers in another locality," they were WL and PL who ran the ministry which was beginning to invade every part of the local church life back in the 80's. Behind the scenes WL and TC were struggling as to "who had the rights" to our eldest brother, and shepherd in the Lord. I could go on for hours how damaging and disrupting LSM and ministry leaders have been to the local churches I have been a part of, but I'm not sure you would like to hear that.

You have been in the Recovery about 10 years. Several years ago LSM and its affiliate DCP sent operatives into Midwest churches to "train" them how to bring lawsuits against their elders in order to capture church properties and assets. LSM sponsored lawsuits occurred in Toronto, Mansfield, and Columbus. Other churches faced the risk of lawsuits. Many churches were torn in half with conflicts dividing families in half. Does this qualify as something that would upset you if it happened in your place?

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by SavedbyGrace

each local church is administered locally, each answering to the Lord.

In the past, but not presently.

[SavedbyGrace]

Originally Posted by SavedbyGrace

each local church is administered locally, answering to the Lord.

Originally Posted by Terry

In the past, but not presently.

I admit there is influence, But, from what I have seen, the leading brothers have to manage it.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by SavedbyGrace

I admit there is influence, But, from what I have seen, the leading brothers have to manage it.

Good point. The best way to manage the pressure is to have a thriving ministry. I was once in the FTTT, we were on a campus in Taipei (near Tai Da, it was a graduate school for engineers). In the course of a few months we brought in many brothers from the campus to the local meeting hall. We had the best success in getting "abiding fruit" of the training. LSM wanted me to use their publications in my bible studies, I ignored them, they did nothing.

[SavedbyGrace]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Dear SavedbyGrace, you keep trying to justify the use of quarantines by denominational leaders. The Bible, as in I Cor 5, spells out conditions for such action. But i am not talking about anything of the kind. Not one single person was quarantined for immoral or unrighteous activity (sin.) Each brother was quarantined by LSM leaders in order to silence them from exposing sin, immorality, and unrighteousness at LSM.

Is that too hard to understand? Why else would so many of us leave? I am not talking about minor matters here. I was in church responsibility for many years. I was involved in hundreds of sad cases of the believers failures. I am the last person to be disappointed by naive concepts of expected "perfection" in God's children. We are all a work in progress. But LSM operates under a horrible double standard.

Let me use a simple example here to make the situation "perfectly clear." What if I was a gifted, but abusive, leader whose son ran my ministry and got caught for molesting ministry employees. In order to protect my reputation and my ministry, I literally destroyed the reputations of all my assistants who threatened to go public with this information.
SavedbyGrace, what would you think of me or my ministry?

If I was in a local church where a sin occurs and the elders are prevented from taking the right decision, I do not have a choice but to leave the local church.

And, to answer your example, I would have a low opinion about anyone who misuses his office. Practically speaking, I would stop listening to the person who misuses his office, irrespective of how wonderful his ministry is.

But, since I am in a different local church which is not affected by this incident, I would not be leaving my local church just based on this incident. I have been enjoying the fellowship with the brothers for some time and I enjoy it. As long as my local church is administered without any issues, I would like to continue there.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by SavedbyGrace

If I was in a local church where a sin occurs and the elders are prevented from taking the right decision, I do not have a choice but to leave the local church.

And, to answer your example, I would have a low opinion about anyone who misuses his office. Practically speaking, I would stop listening to the person who misuses his office, irrespective of how wonderful his ministry is.

But, since I am in a different local church which is not affected by this incident, I would not be leaving my local church just based on this incident. I have been enjoying the fellowship with the brothers for some time and I enjoy it. As long as my local church is administered without any issues, I would like to continue there.

I think there is merit to this view. However, I would point out that since most saints subscribe to this view it enables the LSM to bully churches.

However, let's discuss the example that Ohio has been giving of the quarantine of TC. The BBs sent out a letter explaining their basis for the quarantine and then expected all the churches and saints to stand with them. Therefore, unless your church "quarantines" those saints, there would be no quarantine. So I read the letter and I felt the letter was sin. The NT gives very clear guidelines as to what would constitute grounds for quarantine and the letter didn't present any evidence of any of these grounds. Instead I felt the letter did much to condemn the BBs who signed it.

Now you can no longer say that "this doesn't affect my locality". Either you stand with the quarantine or you don't.

[SavedbyGrace]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

I think there is merit to this view. However, I would point out that since most saints subscribe to this view it enables the LSM to bully churches.

However, let's discuss the example that Ohio has been giving of the quarantine of TC. The BBs sent out a letter explaining their basis for the quarantine and then expected all the churches and saints to stand with them. Therefore, unless your church "quarantines" those saints, there would be no quarantine. So I read the letter and I felt the letter was sin. The NT gives very clear guidelines as to what would constitute grounds for quarantine and the letter didn't present any evidence of any of these grounds. Instead I felt the letter did much to condemn the BBs who signed it.

Now you can no longer say that "this doesn't affect my locality". Either you stand with the quarantine or you don't.

We received the letter about Br. Titus but I do not think it was officially read.
I don't think anyone in my local church would know Br. Titus Chu if he were to walk into our meeting tomorrow and introduce himself as Br. Titus Chu, And, I came to know about the group called Blended Brothers recently.

[SavedbyGrace]

Originally Posted by Ohio

SavedByGrace, these ones were not just "brothers in another locality," they were WL and PL who ran the ministry which was beginning to invade every part of the local church life back in the 80's. Behind the scenes WL and TC were struggling as to "who had the rights" to our eldest brother, and shepherd in the Lord. I could go on for hours how damaging and disrupting LSM and ministry leaders have been to the local churches I have been a part of, but I'm not sure you would like to hear that.

Apologies for my statement 'If you are expecting the local church to be the 'perfect' church, you will be disappointed. And, that is what seems to have happened.'.
If I am in a local church where there is huge influence from external agents (without the permission of the local administration), I would be forced to leave the local church.
You believe you had valid reasons to leave the local church and I accept it. But, I do not accept that those reasons apply to all local churches nor do I agree that everyone should avoid the local churches.

Originally Posted by Ohio

You have been in the Recovery about 10 years. Several years ago LSM and its affiliate DCP sent operatives into Midwest churches to "train" them how to bring lawsuits against their elders in order to capture church properties and assets. LSM sponsored lawsuits occurred in Toronto, Mansfield, and Columbus. Other churches faced the risk of lawsuits. Many churches were torn in half with conflicts dividing families in half. Does this qualify as something that would upset you if it happened in your place?

I don't think law suits would work in my country. Anyways, most of the saints are poor. So, most of the churches cannot afford property.

It would upset me if the local church divided my family. But, I doubt my family would be divided by the local church. Most of my immediate family members are in the local church. But, if they decide to join another denomination tomorrow, I will not hate them.
Some of my immediate family members and most of my extended family members are from different denominations including Catholic and I am close to all of them. Personally (i.e. in non-spiritual matter), we do not have any issues at all with my relatives. Regarding spiritual matters, we believe we are on the better track but they do not think so. And, both of us are fine with it. It is not something we fight over.
When I go to their house, if they are praying, I join them. If I am asked to pray, I pray the way I usually pray in the local churches. When they pray, they pray the way they pray in their churches (some of which is recitation of prayers from the prayer book or the Lord's prayer).

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by SavedbyGrace

If I was in a local church where a sin occurs and the elders are prevented from taking the right decision, I do not have a choice but to leave the local church.

And, to answer your example, I would have a low opinion about anyone who misuses his office. Practically speaking, I would stop listening to the person who misuses his office, irrespective of how wonderful his ministry is.

But, since I am in a different local church which is not affected by this incident, I would not be leaving my local church just based on this incident. I have been enjoying the fellowship with the brothers for some time and I enjoy it. As long as my local church is administered without any issues, I would like to continue there.

I wish you only the best.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by SavedbyGrace

I admit there is influence, But, from what I have seen, the leading brothers have to manage it.

I have seen it from afar and up close. From afar where a couple is refused to be received in their locality where they live because of a blended brothers word to the leading elder.
To a wide-spread degree was regarding Titus Chu. Many localities signed off on his quarantine. Some of whom I have met with at one time or another. How many times have these localities received Titus Chu's ministering? One locality in particular was never ministered by Titus, but choose affirm his quarantine.

Up close where I had asked a hypothetical question on receiving to an elder in my locality. The response was needing to get approval from the blended brothers before the hypothetical individual could be received.

[Cal]

Well, enjoy your church life, SbG. Just don't drink the Kool-Aid. That's all I can say.