I love the local church

[Cal]

If LCers are expert at anything, it is at being content with being ignorant.

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Igzy

If LCers are expert at anything, it is at being content with being ignorant.

RE: My last post.

I did not mean to be insulting. I did mean to be terse, but I realize what I wrote can sound like an insult.

It wasn't. It's just my observation from watching every single pro-LSM poster on this board. That they are massively uninformed and seemingly content to be so.

Think about it. These people are devoting their lives, and severely restricting their lives, in service of a movement they haven't even done their homework on.

Does that make any sense?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Igzy

RE: My last post.

I did not mean to be insulting. I did mean to be terse, but I realize what I wrote can sound like an insult.

It wasn't. It's just my observation from watching every single pro-LSM poster on this board. That they are massively uninformed and seemingly content to be so.

Think about it. These people are devoting their lives, and severely restricting their lives, in service of a movement they haven't even done their homework on.

Does that make any sense?

Having the internet at one's disposal, this today seems almost absurd, but ......

When I devoted my life to "Christ and the church," in a sense, I did my homework! I was with these brothers day-in and day-out. I saw the godly manner of life of many brother and sister, including our leaders.

What was never really investigated was WL/LSM. We took the recommendations of local leaders, and kind of like a snowball rolling down the hill, each new brother in the church began to sing the praises of the ministry of WL, and attend trainings in Anaheim.

[Cal]

To me the internet has meant... ignorance is no longer ever an excuse on any subject.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Ohio

What was never really investigated was WL/LSM. We took the recommendations of local leaders,

Ohio, for years I have wondered, what if?
What if for some of the local leaders the recommendations was lip service?
These local leaders having concerns of their own, but didn't want to make waves with the work or workers of Living Stream Ministry?
Outwardly recommending and exhorting the saints to get into the ministry, attend the annual feasts, tithe for the latest LSM/DCP project, etc. All the while being conflicted inwardly.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Igzy

It's just my observation from watching every single pro-LSM poster on this board. That they are massively uninformed and seemingly content to be so.
Think about it. These people are devoting their lives, and severely restricting their lives, in service of a movement they haven't even done their homework on.

Trying to immerse myself in a pro-LSM point of view, you're going on positively and there hasn't been much spoken by the brothers to doubt them. Plus even if you have a concern, you don't want to ask any questions that might risk your standing with the brothers.
From my point of view, I can accept that point of view from someone who came into the recovery post 1990. They simply don't know the history. There is no track record to be skeptical of LSM.

From those dear brothers and sisters who were present prior to 1990, I cannot. Truth and righteousness has been forsaken by being man-honoring. They've heard the words spoken of brothers no longer meeting in the LSM local churches. Yet choose not to learn the other side of the story. LSM presented a side of the story beneficial to LSM. The side of the story not beneficial to LSM has beeen withheld. That is where pro-LSM saints need to do their homework.

Here's an analogy to consider:
When you rent out rental property, you're not going to take prospective renters at face value. By due duiligence, you're going to do a background check. You're going to make sure, they as the prospective renter are not withholding anything that could be a risk to your investement.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Igzy

If LCers are expert at anything, it is at being content with being ignorant.

For the most part, this is a survival skill for those under oppressive regimes.

Those who have lived in communist countries have learned that certain knowledge about their leaders is dangerous because what one knows might be accidentally spoken. Hence, for the most part, they choose to survive by living in a type of contented ignorance.

The more I studied my past in the Recovery, the more I noticed the evidences of Chinese culture in the form of "contented submission." We in the US confused this with being "spiritual," since they do look somewhat similar to Americans. For example, TC and other LC Chinese leaders lived by the saying that "my father's failures are none of my business." This principle was taken to the extreme, providing WL and his Blendeds unlimited license without accountability for their actions. Hence the saying, "even if Bro Lee is wrong, he is still right."

Case in point: When John Ingalls, John So, Bill Mallon, and numerous other godly men were slanderously and unrighteously quarantined, TC signed his name on the dotted line, and agreed with that condemnation, all the while he knew better. He and the entire GLA thus entered into a period of contented ignorance, only to be interrupted by his own quarantine.

[rayliotta]

Originally Posted by Ohio

For the most part, this is a survival skill for those under oppressive regimes.

Those who have lived in communist countries have learned that certain knowledge about their leaders is dangerous because what one knows might be accidentally spoken. Hence, for the most part, they choose to survive by living in a type of contented ignorance.

The more I studied my past in the Recovery, the more I noticed the evidences of Chinese culture in the form of "contented submission." We in the US confused this with being "spiritual," since they do look somewhat similar to Americans. For example, TC and other LC Chinese leaders lived by the saying that "my father's failures are none of my business." This principle was taken to the extreme, providing WL and his Blendeds unlimited license without accountability for their actions. Hence the saying, "even if Bro Lee is wrong, he is still right."

Case in point: When John Ingalls, John So, Bill Mallon, and numerous other godly men were slanderously and unrighteously quarantined, TC signed his name on the dotted line, and agreed with that condemnation, all the while he knew better. He and the entire GLA thus entered into a period of contented ignorance, only to be interrupted by his own quarantine.

As much as we confused Chinese culture with "spirituality", you don't have to be Chinese to understand this --

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by rayliotta

As much as we confused Chinese culture with "spirituality", you don't have to be Chinese to understand this --

I guess I don't understand.

3 Monkeys or 3 Monkees?

Is that what's left of the band?

[Cal]

SbG, I want to applaud you for coming on this forum and speaking your mind.

But the real issue isn't that the LRC has some good teachings, or good Christians, or nice hymns. Everyone knows there are some good things in the LRC. That's not the issue.

The issue is the severe damage the movement has done to the lives of many through its heavy-handed wielding of self-assumed "spiritual authority."

This legacy is inexcusable and no amount of "rich enjoyment" on your part makes up for the pain it has caused. And it really is quite bizarre that you might think it would.

This, as far as I can tell, is something the members of the movement really don't discuss or take issue with. They hide from it, and pretend it's not there, like a wife turning a blind eye to a husband who abuses his kids.

Until you do something about it, until members take back the movement from the hands of the self-assumed few, you are going to carry in your consciences the guilt of being enablers of abuse. It's your dirty little secret that this forum is making not so secret.

That is the issue. Talking about your "rich enjoyment" is avoiding this issue.

[SavedbyGrace]

Originally Posted by Paul Cox

Nobody from CFP has ever declared that Stephen Kaung is the Minister of the Age, God's Oracle on the earth, or the Acting God.

Is your problem the few phrases? If it is, blame the speaker of the word, not the publisher? LSM publishes everything spoken by a few brothers. So, it has to publish everything spoken, irrespective of whether it is right or wrong.

Just because LSM publishes something or Br. Lee speaks something does not make it divine or infallible. We all have our spirits to discern right and wrong. I have a spirit which lets me know what to accept and reject. So, I accept the many, many publications by LSM which I feel is good. If there are any publications I cannot agree with or I think are incorrect, I reject it.
[Solomon wrote the Song of Songs and went astray. But, that does not mean the Song of Songs is bad. Similarly, Peter disowned the Lord and separated himself from Gentiles when the Jews arrived. But, I cannot reject the books of Peter.]

And, if you want my views on the phrases, 'The Minister of the Age' is something I do not agree with. No one can be uniquely ministering, esp. when even the apostles had to work together.
'God's oracle' does not bother me because I understand oracle to mean someone who speaks/communicates God's word. So, most teachers of the Bible are oracles of God. Even when I prophesy, if I am speaking Christ, I am an oracle of God.
I have not heard the phrase 'acting God' directly though I had heard about it. So, I read the context in which it was said.
In my opinion, Br. Ron could have avoided the phrase to avoid offending others. But, I am personally not offended because I understand the context of the usage very well. Acting God means acting for God just as Paul was acting/speaking for God in 1 Cor 7:10 To the married I give this command (not I, but the Lord)

Originally Posted by Paul Cox

None of the groups getting help from Stephen Kaung, neither individually, nor collectively have ever called themselves 'The Lord's Recovery,' or 'God's Move on the Earth,' ...

Is your problem with the terms 'Lord's Recovery' or 'Lord's Move'?
How is it worser than 'Assembly of God', 'Church of God', or the so many other names?

Originally Posted by Paul Cox

... while at the time taking every opportunity to demean and find fault with everything that is not them. No one person or group of people who stopped fellowshiping with the Assemblies were said to have left God's Best, and no one who ever dared to speak contrary to them has been called inspired by Satan, rebellious or any such thing.

And, regarding people who are not in the Lord's Recovery, I defer to Br. Lee's word in LIFE-STUDY OF MARK MESSAGE TWENTY-NINE(not because Br. Lee's words are divine but because I felt that Br. Lee has explained it well)
In 9:38 John said to the Lord Jesus, “Teacher, we saw someone casting out demons in Your name who does not follow us, and we forbade him, because he was not following us.” The remainder of this chapter is given over to the Lord’s teaching concerning tolerance for the sake of unity, a teaching given in response to John’s statement in verse 38.We need to see that if we forbid others in the way John did in verse 38, this indicates that we consider ourselves greater than others. Furthermore, when we forbid others, thinking ourselves to be greater, we also cause others to stumble. While we are causing others to stumble, we are also causing ourselves to stumble. The evil one may use the members of our body—the hand, the foot, or the eye—to express lust and cause us to stumble. We need to be very careful regarding this.
We should not consider ourselves great. Instead, we need to realize that we are nobody and nothing. If we have this realization, we shall pray. For us to pray indicates that we realize that we are nothing and that we can do nothing. We need another One—Christ Himself—to replace us.
If we do not consider ourselves to be someone great, someone greater than others, we shall not cause others to stumble. But if we think that we are great, we shall cause others to stumble. At the same time, we shall open the gate for the enemy to use the lust in our members to cause us to stumble.
The members of our body, especially the eyes, are lustful. If we cause others to stumble by considering ourselves greater than they are, we may have a wicked eye. Then the way will be open for the enemy to utilize the lust in our members to cause us to stumble.

[SavedbyGrace]

@ rayliotta

I understand the background and agree you may be right in your beliefs because of your experiences. My experience from reading Br. Lee's writings is not same as yours and I am happy.

And, I oppose Christianity as a system too. It is the same as the Pharisees turning the commandments into a 'system'. If you want to argue even the Lord's Recovery has become a system, I would agree that it may be true in some local churches (but not everywhere). But, I also agree with Br. Lee that the 'system'/'religion' of Christianity is incorrect.

Similarly, I agree that the Lord's Recovery is unfortunately, becoming a denomination. But, I also agree with Br. Lee that denominations are bad.

[Ohio]

... while at the time taking every opportunity to demean and find fault with everything that is not them. No one person or group of people who stopped fellowshipping with the Assemblies were said to have left God's Best, and no one who ever dared to speak contrary to them has been called inspired by Satan, rebellious or any such thing.

Originally Posted by SavedbyGrace

And, regarding people who are not in the Lord's Recovery, I defer to Br. Lee's word in LIFE-STUDY OF MARK MESSAGE TWENTY-NINE.

In 9:38 John said to the Lord Jesus, “Teacher, we saw someone casting out demons in Your name who does not follow us, and we forbade him, because he was not following us.” The remainder of this chapter is given over to the Lord’s teaching concerning tolerance for the sake of unity, a teaching given in response to John’s statement in verse 38. We need to see that if we forbid others in the way John did in verse 38, this indicates that we consider ourselves greater than others. Furthermore, when we forbid others, thinking ourselves to be greater, we also cause others to stumble. While we are causing others to stumble, we are also causing ourselves to stumble. The evil one may use the members of our body—the hand, the foot, or the eye—to express lust and cause us to stumble. We need to be very careful regarding this.

We should not consider ourselves great. Instead, we need to realize that we are nobody and nothing. If we have this realization, we shall pray. For us to pray indicates that we realize that we are nothing and that we can do nothing. We need another One—Christ Himself—to replace us.

If we do not consider ourselves to be someone great, someone greater than others, we shall not cause others to stumble. But if we think that we are great, we shall cause others to stumble. At the same time, we shall open the gate for the enemy to use the lust in our members to cause us to stumble.

The members of our body, especially the eyes, are lustful. If we cause others to stumble by considering ourselves greater than they are, we may have a wicked eye. Then the way will be open for the enemy to utilize the lust in our members to cause us to stumble.

SavedbyGrace, in response to Paul Cox's post, you did not address his complaint at all. You quoted a section by WL about "considering ourselves to be great." That may be somewhat related, but it misses the mark. WL's commentary misses the mark also.

Paul Cox mentioned how LC leaders condemn outsiders and former members. It is this derogatory speech and recorded condemnations which he referred to, not the inner attitude of the leaders. In Mark 8.39, Jesus never addressed the attitude of the disciple, probably John, the son of thunder, but his actions in forbidding others who were not with "following us." Jesus then commented on his reasons for forbidding -- that they will not speak evil of the Lord, and thus are really "for us."

WL apparently skipped this matter and brought in his own agenda. Your post does the same.

I prefer not to assume what people think about themselves. I have no way to know. That is between them and the Lord. Jesus alone is the Knower of hearts and the judge of all. I prefer only to discuss what LC leaders do and say, and what they do and say to those outside their circle of fellowship is truly atrocious.