I love the local church

[Cal]

I realize this is easy to say, but the rock-hard truth is that no changes will take place in the LRCs until the saints demand them.

Unfortunately, the members have been indoctrinated to believe "oneness" is more important than anything, even their spiritual and moral condition.

That kind of mentality is hard to overcome. Nigh impossible, because it's self-reinforcing.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Igzy

I realize this is easy to say, but the rock-hard truth is that no changes will take place in the LRCs until the saints demand them.

Unfortunately, the members have been indoctrinated to believe "oneness" is more important than anything, even their spiritual and moral condition.

That kind of mentality is hard to overcome. Nigh impossible, because it's self-reinforcing.

You're right about that Igzy, but the overwhelming number of personal situations and testimonies (including brother ZNP's next post) have proven to me beyond a shadow of a doubt that this kind of change is really impossible. Numerous factors are at work here, including the over-elevation of the teaching of oneness, (look what that enabled the Catholic Church to become) as you mentioned.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Igzy

I realize this is easy to say, but the rock-hard truth is that no changes will take place in the LRCs until the saints demand them.

Unfortunately, the members have been indoctrinated to believe "oneness" is more important than anything, even their spiritual and moral condition.

Igzy, this ties into what SavedByGrace spoke in post #48

"By definition, organizations are a group of like-minded people. When a person of a different views/opinions joins the organization, the peace is lost. So, it is better for the dissenter to go on his/her separate way."

In other words in order to keep the oneness (aka like-minded), you might need to bury your head in the sand, look the other way, etc even if the outcome is to sacrifice your "spiritual and moral condition".

So if you are not one willing to sacrifice what you believe in, your core values, your integrity, you've become a dissenter for your unwillingness to remain like-minded. As SavedByGrace said, "it is better for the dissenter to go on his/her separate way." It's because of my love for the saints in the local churches, I cannot forget what I left behind. Practically there is the need to press on, but still loving the brothers and sisters we once fellowshipped with.

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Terry

Igzy, this ties into what SavedByGrace spoke in post #48

"By definition, organizations are a group of like-minded people. When a person of a different views/opinions joins the organization, the peace is lost. So, it is better for the dissenter to go on his/her separate way."

In other words in order to keep the oneness (aka like-minded), you might need to bury your head in the sand, look the other way, etc even if the outcome is to sacrifice your "spiritual and moral condition".

So if you are not one willing to sacrifice what you believe in, your core values, your integrity, you've become a dissenter for your unwillingness to remain like-minded. As SavedByGrace said, "it is better for the dissenter to go on his/her separate way." It's because of my love for the saints in the local churches, I cannot forget what I left behind. Practically there is the need to press on, but still loving the brothers and sisters we once fellowshipped with.

I have no problem with what SbG said. But it's only part of the story.

What he left out is how the LRC kicks people when they leave. And how the members there have trouble having relationships with former members (or any other non-LRC Christians). It's black and white with them. Either you are with them, or you are against them. Either you are with them, or you are some kind of reprobate.

That kind of mentality is inexcusable, and I'm not surprised SbG avoided talking about it, because it's also indefensible. Unless he wants to say they are the only true churches, and then it's don the tinfoil hat time.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Terry

Igzy, this ties into what SavedByGrace spoke in post #48

"By definition, organizations are a group of like-minded people. When a person of a different views/opinions joins the organization, the peace is lost. So, it is better for the dissenter to go on his/her separate way."

In principle, I agree with this statement by SavedbyGrace. It's true. The Recovery is not for everyone. For 30 years I operated this way too, telling others that we had a certain commitment, and our own particular ways of doing things, and, though we welcomed everyone, we realized that not everyone would (or could) take the same way.

Every collection of believers and churches could say the same thing about themselves. What changed it all was all those "hidden things" which leaders kept secret. I'm not talking about leaders who took vacations on the sly, but the multitude of unrighteousness by LC leaders which have damaged the children of God. We all have to tolerate a little hypocrisy at times, but not crimes against the people of God. That was the game changer for me and for many others.

[ToGodAlone]

Originally Posted by Ohio

In principle, I agree with this statement by SavedbyGrace. It's true. The Recovery is not for everyone. For 30 years I operated this way too, telling others that we had a certain commitment, and our own particular ways of doing things, and, though we welcomed everyone, we realized that not everyone would (or could) take the same way.

Every collection of believers and churches could say the same thing about themselves. What changed it all was all those "hidden things" which leaders kept secret. I'm not talking about leaders who took vacations on the sly, but the multitude of unrighteousness by LC leaders which have damaged the children of God. We all have to tolerate a little hypocrisy at times, but not crimes against the people of God. That was the game changer for me and for many others.

Imo any church that treats people with different opinions the way the LRC does is more than not for everyone...it is really not for anyone. That kind of behavior is detrimental to the church and the body of Christ as a whole. How can you preach oneness when you slam all of Christianity and "organized religion" as Babylon? I've been on the receiving end of this rejection, and let me tell you it's just baffling sometimes, and hurtful in others. There are churches that aren't for everyone because of their particular practices and whatnot, but the LRC is a step beyond that.

[rayliotta]

Originally Posted by ToGodAlone

Imo any church that treats people with different opinions the way the LRC does is more than not for everyone...it is really not for anyone. That kind of behavior is detrimental to the church and the body of Christ as a whole. How can you preach oneness when you slam all of Christianity and "organized religion" as Babylon? I've been on the receiving end of this rejection, and let me tell you it's just baffling sometimes, and hurtful in others. There are churches that aren't for everyone because of their particular practices and whatnot, but the LRC is a step beyond that.

Absolutely, the "step beyond" is that they claim to be the location of something called "God's present move on the earth today". They claim to have the "one flow", the "oracle", the "minister of the age with the ministry of the age", etc., etc.

So when they then turn around and say, the Recovery isn't for everybody, what is it that they're really saying?

________________

And then they go to a meeting and sing songs about "grace"!!

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ToGodAlone

Imo any church that treats people with different opinions the way the LRC does is more than not for everyone...it is really not for anyone. That kind of behavior is detrimental to the church and the body of Christ as a whole.

During the "new way" movement, one particularly obnoxious by-product of the many "flows" that blew thru the Recovery was the way people were treated. New members were "love-bombed" with all the care and attention of a new born babe, while the established members were taken for granted and often treated with disrespect. I believe this started at the very top with WL firing established elders and condemning all "resistance" from the mature saints. There was a general state of disrespect with all the LSM'ers and trainees towards all the elders of the churches. There were running jokes about leaders like TC needing to "humble himself" and serve kitchens and bathrooms in Taipei.

Both WL and PL portrayed all church leaders outside of their own LSM as proud pompous arrogants requiring humbling submissions, and only they were humbly and faithfully serving the Lord to evangelize the whole earth according to the Great Commission. This attitude quickly spread everywhere via the trainees. Things eventually calmed down, but it seems LSM can't do a positive work for the Lord unless they got scapegoats to regularly condemn, and thus maintain their own puffed-up egos.

[SavedbyGrace]

Originally Posted by Igzy

If LCers are expert at anything, it is at being content with being ignorant.

Originally Posted by Igzy

RE: My last post.

I did not mean to be insulting. I did mean to be terse, but I realize what I wrote can sound like an insult.

It wasn't. It's just my observation from watching every single pro-LSM poster on this board. That they are massively uninformed and seemingly content to be so.

Think about it. These people are devoting their lives, and severely restricting their lives, in service of a movement they haven't even done their homework on.

Does that make any sense?

Originally Posted by Ohio

For the most part, this is a survival skill for those under oppressive regimes.

Those who have lived in communist countries have learned that certain knowledge about their leaders is dangerous because what one knows might be accidentally spoken. Hence, for the most part, they choose to survive by living in a type of contented ignorance.

Originally Posted by Ohio

Having the internet at one's disposal, this today seems almost absurd, but ......

Originally Posted by Igzy

To me the internet has meant... ignorance is no longer ever an excuse on any subject.

One person makes a statement and another person reinforces it. Then it is accepted as fact.

How do you define ignorant? Do you know everything about everyone whose messages you read? Can I infer from your statement that all members of the Pentecostal churches are ignorant if they do not know the life history of Agnes Ozman or Charles Parham or many of the other early members in Pentecostal churches? Does everyone who hear a song by Hillsong know the story of all people involved in Hillsong?

Anyways, none of this matters because each local church is administered locally, each answering to the Lord. I do not wish to nor should interfere in the other local churches.

[SavedbyGrace]

Originally Posted by Ohio

When I devoted my life to "Christ and the church," in a sense, I did my homework! I was with these brothers day-in and day-out. I saw the godly manner of life of many brother and sister, including our leaders.

What was never really investigated was WL/LSM. We took the recommendations of local leaders, and kind of like a snowball rolling down the hill, each new brother in the church began to sing the praises of the ministry of WL, and attend trainings in Anaheim.

If I understand correctly, you enjoyed fellowship with brothers in your locality, all of whom were faithful Christians and led lives above reproach. Then, you heard about certain incidents related to brothers in another locality, who you may or may not have met. So, you do your research about the brothers in the other locality and decide to leave the church in your locality.

I would not do this, esp. if I argue that each local church is administered locally, answering to the Lord. My being a part of the local church will not be dependent on incidents/elders/leading brothers in another locality. I am not saying that you are wrong. This is just my understanding.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by SavedbyGrace

each local church is administered locally, each answering to the Lord.

In the past, but not presently.