I love the local church

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Most messages on these forums are anti-local churches. For more than 10 years, I am a member of the local church in a non-US, non-Chinese country. And, my experience in the local church is certainly different from the negative, suspicious experiences mentioned here.

There is some truth to some of the allegations, esp. the control and the attempt to fit the church into a particular pattern. But, it is true for most denominations. Every denomination has its own ways and you are supposed to conform. Try preaching in a Pentecostal church and the pastor would try his best to get you to stop.

I was born in an conservative Pentecostal family. My parents came in touch with Br. Lee's writings moves to the local church. I followed my parents to the local church. But, once I reached the local church, I fell in love with it.

The teaching, the hymns, the atmosphere in the local churches were so much different from the Pentecostal churches. A simple example is that I began to appreciate the book Song of Songs after I came to the Lord's recovery. Till then, it was considered a book that had to be ignored. Similarly, I never heard about the Lord becoming the life-giving Spirit till I came to the local churches. Neither did I know that Rom 5:10 is so rich and talks about the complete salvation of God. And, so many more things.

I also appreciate how the local churches encourage all saints to prophesy. Even today, I attended a meeting where one of the elders gave a long boring message. But, the prophesying after the message was so rich. I wish all churches (non-local churches) would stop the one man speaking and let every member function.

Also, the HWMR explains the Bible so well. Recently, we have been pursuing Psalms and you realize that the riches in Psalms are so vast. Similar to the experience with earlier HWMR on Song of Songs or Isaiah or all the other books.

And, the Hymns are so wonderful. They are not only about salvation or going to heaven or working for the Lord or being comforted. Right now, I am listening to hymn # 509 - God is in Christ to be my supply....

Like I said earlier, there are some flaws in the local churches. And, there certainly would be flaws or else we would be raptured. But, I have not seen any other church/denomination where I have seen a richer enjoyment of Christ.

Sorry for not addressing your post directly.

1. I loved my time in the LRC (I am an ex member) mostly because of the fellowship and hospitality. I was raised as a Christian, saved when I was twelve and have met with various Christians to this day (I am in my fifties) but I have never seen or experienced the level of hospitality, both giving and receiving, that I experienced for 20+ years in the LRC. This, to me is what made the LRC my family.
2. Along these same lines I loved the fellowship. I have had many positive experiences of fellowship with Christians, both in and out of the LRC, but because of corporate living and because we used to drive to trainings and conferences, sometimes on trips longer than 24 hours, the memories are particularly memorable from the LRC. This to me is where I feel I was really mentored.
3. I loved the gospel work that I was involved in while in the LRC. I was very active for most of my 20 years, both in college, in Irving, in Odessa and later in Taiwan with the FTTT. Some have complained on this site of the FTTT and the lame materials that LSM produced, to me it was no big deal to discard them and use the Bible. This is where I had some of my most memorable and awesome experiences of the Lord.
4. I also loved the fact that the testimonies of the saints were such an important part of the meetings. This is what I came for. Often I enjoyed the message, other times I slept through them, but to my mind the testimonies were what made the LRC home. You felt you knew so many saints who you might otherwise not have known.

That said, the constant promotion of all things LSM was not something I enjoyed. Also some of the teachings were absurd or at the very least obnoxiously arrogant.

As for the negative things: I never learned the details of Daystar until after leaving the LRC, I don't think it had any influence on my personal experience. I did learn of PL while in NY, I was eating with some elders and leading ones who were discussing a visit to the church by the LSM. They were all in disgust with PL and I felt I should be the one to speak openly about it to the LSM reps during the meeting. After all I had served in the LSM for many years. I didn't learn of the details about JI and others until coming on this site. I was in Taiwan when he left. I don't think any of those things mentioned about the church in the US during the 80s had any influence on my own experience.

However, I am an ex member and I left specifically because when I did return to the US I felt the church was very exclusive and contrary to the truth.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

I did learn of PL while in NY, I was eating with some elders and leading ones who were discussing a visit to the church by the LSM. They were all in disgust with PL and I felt I should be the one to speak openly about it to the LSM reps during the meeting. After all I had served in the LSM for many years.

Did you do that? Did BC agree to that? What happened?

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Did you do that? Did BC agree to that? What happened?

BC was not at the lunch I was referring to. I spoke during a public meeting with several hundred saints. I sat on the back row, this way when I stood up I could see the entire congregation. I likened WL and PL to Eli and the sons of Eli. By standing up from the last row it also sent a message that everyone in the church was aware of this behavior, though I did cover my testimony with a very small fig leaf in case there were new ones or others that didn't have to know everything.

Shortly after that BC gathered the other two elders together and told me I had to move out of Dunton House. A few months later I learned a trap was being set to create a scene that could be used to excommunicate me. From that day on I met regularly with the group I now meet with and only went to LRC meetings irregularly. After about a year I stopped altogether, except for a few odd meetings for my children and the funeral.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

BC was not at the lunch I was referring to. I spoke during a public meeting with several hundred saints. I sat on the back row, this way when I stood up I could see the entire congregation. I likened WL and PL to Eli and the sons of Eli. By standing up from the last row it also sent a message that everyone in the church was aware of this behavior, though I did cover my testimony with a very small fig leaf in case there were new ones or others that didn't have to know everything.

Shortly after that BC gathered the other two elders together and told me I had to move out of Dunton House. A few months later I learned a trap was being set to create a scene that could be used to excommunicate me.

"If we say that we have fellowship with Him and walk in the darkness, we lie and are not practicing the truth... If we say that we do not have sin, we are deceiving ourselves, and the truth is not in us... If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us."

[Cal]

I realize this is easy to say, but the rock-hard truth is that no changes will take place in the LRCs until the saints demand them.

Unfortunately, the members have been indoctrinated to believe "oneness" is more important than anything, even their spiritual and moral condition.

That kind of mentality is hard to overcome. Nigh impossible, because it's self-reinforcing.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Igzy

I realize this is easy to say, but the rock-hard truth is that no changes will take place in the LRCs until the saints demand them.

Unfortunately, the members have been indoctrinated to believe "oneness" is more important than anything, even their spiritual and moral condition.

That kind of mentality is hard to overcome. Nigh impossible, because it's self-reinforcing.

You're right about that Igzy, but the overwhelming number of personal situations and testimonies (including brother ZNP's next post) have proven to me beyond a shadow of a doubt that this kind of change is really impossible. Numerous factors are at work here, including the over-elevation of the teaching of oneness, (look what that enabled the Catholic Church to become) as you mentioned.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Igzy

I realize this is easy to say, but the rock-hard truth is that no changes will take place in the LRCs until the saints demand them.

Unfortunately, the members have been indoctrinated to believe "oneness" is more important than anything, even their spiritual and moral condition.

Igzy, this ties into what SavedByGrace spoke in post #48

"By definition, organizations are a group of like-minded people. When a person of a different views/opinions joins the organization, the peace is lost. So, it is better for the dissenter to go on his/her separate way."

In other words in order to keep the oneness (aka like-minded), you might need to bury your head in the sand, look the other way, etc even if the outcome is to sacrifice your "spiritual and moral condition".

So if you are not one willing to sacrifice what you believe in, your core values, your integrity, you've become a dissenter for your unwillingness to remain like-minded. As SavedByGrace said, "it is better for the dissenter to go on his/her separate way." It's because of my love for the saints in the local churches, I cannot forget what I left behind. Practically there is the need to press on, but still loving the brothers and sisters we once fellowshipped with.

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Terry

Igzy, this ties into what SavedByGrace spoke in post #48

"By definition, organizations are a group of like-minded people. When a person of a different views/opinions joins the organization, the peace is lost. So, it is better for the dissenter to go on his/her separate way."

In other words in order to keep the oneness (aka like-minded), you might need to bury your head in the sand, look the other way, etc even if the outcome is to sacrifice your "spiritual and moral condition".

So if you are not one willing to sacrifice what you believe in, your core values, your integrity, you've become a dissenter for your unwillingness to remain like-minded. As SavedByGrace said, "it is better for the dissenter to go on his/her separate way." It's because of my love for the saints in the local churches, I cannot forget what I left behind. Practically there is the need to press on, but still loving the brothers and sisters we once fellowshipped with.

I have no problem with what SbG said. But it's only part of the story.

What he left out is how the LRC kicks people when they leave. And how the members there have trouble having relationships with former members (or any other non-LRC Christians). It's black and white with them. Either you are with them, or you are against them. Either you are with them, or you are some kind of reprobate.

That kind of mentality is inexcusable, and I'm not surprised SbG avoided talking about it, because it's also indefensible. Unless he wants to say they are the only true churches, and then it's don the tinfoil hat time.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Terry

Igzy, this ties into what SavedByGrace spoke in post #48

"By definition, organizations are a group of like-minded people. When a person of a different views/opinions joins the organization, the peace is lost. So, it is better for the dissenter to go on his/her separate way."

In principle, I agree with this statement by SavedbyGrace. It's true. The Recovery is not for everyone. For 30 years I operated this way too, telling others that we had a certain commitment, and our own particular ways of doing things, and, though we welcomed everyone, we realized that not everyone would (or could) take the same way.

Every collection of believers and churches could say the same thing about themselves. What changed it all was all those "hidden things" which leaders kept secret. I'm not talking about leaders who took vacations on the sly, but the multitude of unrighteousness by LC leaders which have damaged the children of God. We all have to tolerate a little hypocrisy at times, but not crimes against the people of God. That was the game changer for me and for many others.

[ToGodAlone]

Originally Posted by Ohio

In principle, I agree with this statement by SavedbyGrace. It's true. The Recovery is not for everyone. For 30 years I operated this way too, telling others that we had a certain commitment, and our own particular ways of doing things, and, though we welcomed everyone, we realized that not everyone would (or could) take the same way.

Every collection of believers and churches could say the same thing about themselves. What changed it all was all those "hidden things" which leaders kept secret. I'm not talking about leaders who took vacations on the sly, but the multitude of unrighteousness by LC leaders which have damaged the children of God. We all have to tolerate a little hypocrisy at times, but not crimes against the people of God. That was the game changer for me and for many others.

Imo any church that treats people with different opinions the way the LRC does is more than not for everyone...it is really not for anyone. That kind of behavior is detrimental to the church and the body of Christ as a whole. How can you preach oneness when you slam all of Christianity and "organized religion" as Babylon? I've been on the receiving end of this rejection, and let me tell you it's just baffling sometimes, and hurtful in others. There are churches that aren't for everyone because of their particular practices and whatnot, but the LRC is a step beyond that.

[rayliotta]

Originally Posted by ToGodAlone

Imo any church that treats people with different opinions the way the LRC does is more than not for everyone...it is really not for anyone. That kind of behavior is detrimental to the church and the body of Christ as a whole. How can you preach oneness when you slam all of Christianity and "organized religion" as Babylon? I've been on the receiving end of this rejection, and let me tell you it's just baffling sometimes, and hurtful in others. There are churches that aren't for everyone because of their particular practices and whatnot, but the LRC is a step beyond that.

Absolutely, the "step beyond" is that they claim to be the location of something called "God's present move on the earth today". They claim to have the "one flow", the "oracle", the "minister of the age with the ministry of the age", etc., etc.

So when they then turn around and say, the Recovery isn't for everybody, what is it that they're really saying?

________________

And then they go to a meeting and sing songs about "grace"!!

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ToGodAlone

Imo any church that treats people with different opinions the way the LRC does is more than not for everyone...it is really not for anyone. That kind of behavior is detrimental to the church and the body of Christ as a whole.

During the "new way" movement, one particularly obnoxious by-product of the many "flows" that blew thru the Recovery was the way people were treated. New members were "love-bombed" with all the care and attention of a new born babe, while the established members were taken for granted and often treated with disrespect. I believe this started at the very top with WL firing established elders and condemning all "resistance" from the mature saints. There was a general state of disrespect with all the LSM'ers and trainees towards all the elders of the churches. There were running jokes about leaders like TC needing to "humble himself" and serve kitchens and bathrooms in Taipei.

Both WL and PL portrayed all church leaders outside of their own LSM as proud pompous arrogants requiring humbling submissions, and only they were humbly and faithfully serving the Lord to evangelize the whole earth according to the Great Commission. This attitude quickly spread everywhere via the trainees. Things eventually calmed down, but it seems LSM can't do a positive work for the Lord unless they got scapegoats to regularly condemn, and thus maintain their own puffed-up egos.

[SavedbyGrace]

Originally Posted by Igzy

If LCers are expert at anything, it is at being content with being ignorant.

Originally Posted by Igzy

RE: My last post.

I did not mean to be insulting. I did mean to be terse, but I realize what I wrote can sound like an insult.

It wasn't. It's just my observation from watching every single pro-LSM poster on this board. That they are massively uninformed and seemingly content to be so.

Think about it. These people are devoting their lives, and severely restricting their lives, in service of a movement they haven't even done their homework on.

Does that make any sense?

Originally Posted by Ohio

For the most part, this is a survival skill for those under oppressive regimes.

Those who have lived in communist countries have learned that certain knowledge about their leaders is dangerous because what one knows might be accidentally spoken. Hence, for the most part, they choose to survive by living in a type of contented ignorance.

Originally Posted by Ohio

Having the internet at one's disposal, this today seems almost absurd, but ......

Originally Posted by Igzy

To me the internet has meant... ignorance is no longer ever an excuse on any subject.

One person makes a statement and another person reinforces it. Then it is accepted as fact.

How do you define ignorant? Do you know everything about everyone whose messages you read? Can I infer from your statement that all members of the Pentecostal churches are ignorant if they do not know the life history of Agnes Ozman or Charles Parham or many of the other early members in Pentecostal churches? Does everyone who hear a song by Hillsong know the story of all people involved in Hillsong?

Anyways, none of this matters because each local church is administered locally, each answering to the Lord. I do not wish to nor should interfere in the other local churches.