An Outsider's Story

[ToGodAlone]

Originally Posted by NeitherFirstnorLast

Amen to that, brother.

There is a lot of good advice here, and the only thing I might add, being by my natural self a romantic, is that what truly matters is what the Lord has put on your heart for this young woman.

It is true: "The heart is more deceitful than all else And is desperately sick; Who can understand it?" Jeremiah 17:9 - and yet as we draw closer to Him, it is our hearts that He softens; and love is the ultimate sum of all the commandments.

The advice the brothers have given you here is very practical, and not at all wrong.... but what does the Lord speak to your heart in His still small voice to you about her?

Practically speaking: You have known this young lady for years now, and it does not seem as though she has tried to drag you into her "church", nor to indoctrinate you with LSM theology... that's curious and unusual. As a young, college age man, you are particularly valued - even sought as a prize, by LSM. They have specifically targeted your age group, and they will use young people and relationships to 'gain' you... but it does not seem as though this has happened. In fact, her apparent reluctance to 'share' with you may even indicate that she herself is not 'for the ministry', but merely hasn't seen a way out of it...

Brother, take what the Lord has put on your heart for this girl - and move forward in faith. Be honest with her; and share your faith with her. Build her up, if you love her... and be prepared to share the whole truth in love; even if that ultimately drives her away. That is precisely the kind of self-sacrificing love of Christ for which we ourselves were redeemed.

Your brother in Christ,

NeitherFirstnorLast

Thanks for your reply NFnL. Very wise words.

I am well aware of the whole specific targeting thing that they are doing to people of my age group. Their Bibles for America table says it all, though they try to get everyone possible. I think they had a staff member approach them once and they were very...excited about that if you know what I mean. Of course, that is normal for any group. As for her trying to find a way out, I know that is not the case. If she had her way, I would be in the LRC with her, however I feel as though this is more out of a sense of comfort than anything else. As I mentioned above, this is all she knows. She does say that she sees more growth of the Christian life in the LRC than in other churches. I don't know how she came to that conclusion since she has never attended another church outside the LRC, but there you go. She also says that the Bible studies I attend (I also forgot to mention that I have brought her to a few of my church's small group Bible studies as well as the All Campus Worship) lack the...depth of her Bible studies. I see this as the LRC teachings working in her mind, but perhaps you with more experience can shed light on this.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by ToGodAlone

As I mentioned above, this is all she knows. She does say that she sees more growth of the Christian life in the LRC than in other churches. I don't know how she came to that conclusion since she has never attended another church outside the LRC, but there you go.

I believe this is normal among Christians. A tendency to meet within their comfort zone; an environment where they feel comfortable. Being raised in the local churches, it was awkward going to a non-local church meeting. I found with other Christian assemblies, there is not much outreach for fellowship with other Christians in your community who don't attend the same assembly.
Comparing growth of life of an LRC assembly to a non-LRC assembly is a statement in error. Growth of the Christian life is not in the assembly, but in an individual's personal walk with the Lord.

[ToGodAlone]

Originally Posted by Terry

I believe this is normal among Christians. A tendency to meet within their comfort zone; an environment where they feel comfortable. Being raised in the local churches, it was awkward going to a non-local church meeting. I found with other Christian assemblies, there is not much outreach for fellowship with other Christians in your community who don't attend the same assembly.
Comparing growth of life of an LRC assembly to a non-LRC assembly is a statement in error. Growth of the Christian life is not in the assembly, but in an individual's personal walk with the Lord.

I guess that would make sense for the most part. I suppose I'm in the minority in that my church has several events during the year in which we do things with members of other churches in the area. However my church on campus does not do much with other fellowships other than All Campus Worship, though part of it is due to the church being so large (I think almost 1000 members during the year or so). that even meeting with members who are in a different dorm that it is sort of like meeting with another church.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Terry

I believe this is normal among Christians. A tendency to meet within their comfort zone; an environment where they feel comfortable. Being raised in the local churches, it was awkward going to a non-local church meeting. I found with other Christian assemblies, there is not much outreach for fellowship with other Christians in your community who don't attend the same assembly.

Brother TGA,

You have not indicated where you are located, but one thing that may be in your favor is the events of the last 5 or 6 years in the Recovery. A couple of major splits occurred, with one being in the Great Lakes Area where I am. A regional leader in Cleveland, OH was "quarantined" by headquarters in Anaheim, CA.

The positive effect of the splits is that many open-minded saints were forced to reevaluate, or to even consider for the first time, many long held doctrines and practices. The Bible admonishes us to "test all things," and many things in the Recovery, that had been taken for granted, just could not "pass the test," and have since been discarded.

Not all in America, however, have taken these steps to reevaluate Recovery tenets according to the scripture. Many simply clung to the old party line emanating from the Living Stream Ministry. In some places the breakup was nasty indeed, with lawsuits over property and assets. All of these events just exposed the hypocrisy of LSM's "oneness" doctrines and practices.

[ToGodAlone]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Brother TGA,

You have not indicated where you are located, but one thing that may be in your favor is the events of the last 5 or 6 years in the Recovery. A couple of major splits occurred, with one being in the Great Lakes Area where I am. A regional leader in Cleveland, OH was "quarantined" by headquarters in Anaheim, CA.

The positive effect of the splits is that many open-minded saints were forced to reevaluate, or to even consider for the first time, many long held doctrines and practices. The Bible admonishes us to "test all things," and many things in the Recovery, that had been taken for granted, just could not "pass the test," and have since been discarded.

Not all in America, however, have taken these steps to reevaluate Recovery tenets according to the scripture. Many simply clung to the old party line emanating from the Living Stream Ministry. In some places the breakup was nasty indeed, with lawsuits over property and assets. All of these events just exposed the hypocrisy of LSM's "oneness" doctrines and practices.

Yes I have read of these splits a little before I posted here. I will say that although I am in the Great Lakes area, the churches that my girlfriend attends both on campus and at home are very much like the traditional ones. Still affiliated with LSM and all that.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ToGodAlone

Yes I have read of these splits a little before I posted here. I will say that although I am in the Great Lakes area, the churches that my girlfriend attends both on campus and at home are very much like the traditional ones. Still affiliated with LSM and all that.

That's still better than not.

It is my opinion that those in the Great Lakes Area, who sided with LSM, don't really know what LSM is really like. GLA is an "LSM-Lite," having been much influenced and somewhat moderated by TC over the years. Some of the horror stories I have read from other regions have surprised even me.

I was active in the Ohio area LC's from the mid-70's to the early-00's, so I know that most in the GLA have a polished image of LSM, which they received via trainings and videos. With few exceptions, most are unawares of the ultra-legalism of the Texas region and numerous "storms" which plagued the west coast. It is also my opinion that most of those in the GLA sided with LSM because they considered it a lesser evil than TC in Cleveland, a "grass is greener on the other side" type thing.

Remember these are just my personal generalizations, and individual experiences may vary. I also found that the church experience for Asians seemed to be more palatable than for folks like me.

[ToGodAlone]

Originally Posted by Ohio

That's still better than not.

It is my opinion that those in the Great Lakes Area, who sided with LSM, don't really know what LSM is really like. GLA is an "LSM-Lite," having been much influenced and somewhat moderated by TC over the years. Some of the horror stories I have read from other regions have surprised even me.

I was active in the Ohio area LC's from the mid-70's to the early-00's, so I know that most in the GLA have a polished image of LSM, which they received via trainings and videos. With few exceptions, most are unawares of the ultra-legalism of the Texas region and numerous "storms" which plagued the west coast. It is also my opinion that most of those in the GLA sided with LSM because they considered it a lesser evil than TC in Cleveland, a "grass is greener on the other side" type thing.

Remember these are just my personal generalizations, and individual experiences may vary. I also found that the church experience for Asians seemed to be more palatable than for folks like me.

Well then I guess I have much to be thankful for. Good to know.

Originally Posted by Ohio

It is also my opinion that most of those in the GLA sided with LSM because they considered it a lesser evil than TC in Cleveland, a "grass is greener on the other side" type thing.

Do you mean currently in the GLA there are more pro LSM than TC?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Do you mean currently in the GLA there are more pro LSM than TC?

Depends on what part of the GLA you are in.

Before the actual quarantine of TC in Oct. 2006, LSM leaders effectively wooed the Chicago leader Bill Barker into their camp. He had been bitterly scolded by TC in a workers' gathering, and was still smarting from that offense. His flip-flop in allegiance was pivotal, and allowed LSM to proceed with their "purging" without major losses.

In the Chicago area, only a few places like Naperville are still supportive of TC. Close to a dozen full-time workers and their families left the Chicago area for TC controlled areas closer to Cleveland. This resulted in a huge "brain-drain" for Chicago, but helped them much financially, since they just completed a major, and very costly expansion to their property.

In "greater Ohio," several nasty splits occurred. LSM controlled minorities were able to out-maneuver the TC sided majorities in Mansfield and Columbus with the help of LSM's legal team. The huge church in Toronto barely escaped LSM's clutches.

Not to overly complicate things, but there are also greater Ohio churches which have distanced themselves from both Anaheim and Cleveland, which is what I predicted all along. TC has long proposed the paradigm of "WL good, Blendeds bad" to all his supporters, and most have bought into that. It's an easy and convenient sell, but it does not match the facts. Once we begin to examine the many faults of the Blendeds, it is just a few baby steps further to realize that WL, TC, and the Blendeds are all pretty much the same.

[NeitherFirstnorLast]

Originally Posted by ToGodAlone

She does say that she sees more growth of the Christian life in the LRC than in other churches... She also says that the Bible studies I attend (I also forgot to mention that I have brought her to a few of my church's small group Bible studies as well as the All Campus Worship) lack the...depth of her Bible studies.

The sentiments this young lady has expressed here are not uncommon amongst those within LSM's system. Lee was very adept at using language to confound his adherents. He often used vocabulary with which we may all be familiar, but he would then give it new definitions that could leave your head swimming. By this, he would leave many feeling that he was their intellectual as well as spiritual superior. This is a common tactic amongst lawyers, as well as a common tactic amongst salesmen. For young people growing up within Lee's system, reading only Lee, the use of Lee's verbage would define what is Christian and what isn't.

You pointed out in an earlier post that you called LSM's Hymnal Lee's hymnal - and you were right to do so. Lee wouldn't even permit songs from other Christian groups to be the focus of worship - he had to have his own songs with his own words (not that he wrote all of them in that hymnal, but his 'unique ministry' colored them all, or most of them). Abandoning his system means abandoning cherished songs, ways of praying, ways of meeting, ways of thinking about and expressing your faith, ways of preaching of the gospel, and ways of thinking about yourself. That's a lot to abandon; and as you will note from the length of time many have spent on this forum, it can take a long long time to work through that.

Yes, a flurry of impressive sounding terminology in any field or any setting could give the impression that a group is somehow advanced.

[Cal]

Originally Posted by NeitherFirstnorLast

The sentiments this young lady has expressed here are not uncommon amongst those within LSM's system. Lee was very adept at using language to confound his adherents. He often used vocabulary with which we may all be familiar, but he would then give it new definitions that could leave your head swimming. By this, he would leave many feeling that he was their intellectual as well as spiritual superior. This is a common tactic amongst lawyers, as well as a common tactic amongst salesmen. For young people growing up within Lee's system, reading only Lee, the use of Lee's verbage would define what is Christian and what isn't.

You pointed out in an earlier post that you called LSM's Hymnal Lee's hymnal - and you were right to do so. Lee wouldn't even permit songs from other Christian groups to be the focus of worship - he had to have his own songs with his own words (not that he wrote all of them in that hymnal, but his 'unique ministry' colored them all, or most of them). Abandoning his system means abandoning cherished songs, ways of praying, ways of meeting, ways of thinking about and expressing your faith, ways of preaching of the gospel, and ways of thinking about yourself. That's a lot to abandon; and as you will note from the length of time many have spent on this forum, it can take a long long time to work through that.

Well said.

[OBW]

A follow-up to my previous comments. I had some time talking with my Dad last night and realized that he does not even pretend that Lee is always right. And he is frustrated that there is no forum (within the LRC) to ask questions when it seems that they are obviously missing something. But he has a 38-year long community of fellowship that is otherwise a fairly sound evangelical group and just doesn't find cause to make a change.

If that is the nature of the family that you are dealing with, then there is surely hope.

Unregistered Guest there is much to love about a woman other than her sectarian beliefs. I assume you are physically attracted to her and you like her personality. Hopefully you have some things in common that you like to do together e.g. hobbies, sports, etc.

If you are serious about ever getting married then even more considerations should be addressed: e.g. what you both want in life, how finances will be managed, how the decision making process will go in your household, division of labor for household duties, can you communicate well with each other, views on sexuality, do you both want children, etc.

Notice I didn't put much down about religion? Why? Because most people are not obsessed about it like those in the "Lord's Recovery" who tend to be hyper-spiritual about everything. And furthermore the "Lord's Recovery" is not just another church down the street. It is an all encompassing lifestyle and subculture - think: "Amish".

So I guess some questions for you would be how do you two "score" in the items of the above 1st 2 paragraphs? And if it's strong enough and your GF is only a fringe member of the "Lord's Recovery" and will not impose it's lifestyle and views on you, could you two build a life together?

[ToGodAlone]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Unregistered Guest there is much to love about a woman other than her sectarian beliefs. I assume you are physically attracted to her and you like her personality. Hopefully you have some things in common that you like to do together e.g. hobbies, sports, etc.

If you are serious about ever getting married then even more considerations should be addressed: e.g. what you both want in life, how finances will be managed, how the decision making process will go in your household, division of labor for household duties, can you communicate well with each other, views on sexuality, do you both want children, etc.

Notice I didn't put much down about religion? Why? Because most people are not obsessed about it like those in the "Lord's Recovery" who tend to be hyper-spiritual about everything. And furthermore the "Lord's Recovery" is not just another church down the street. It is an all encompassing lifestyle and subculture - think: "Amish".

So I guess some questions for you would be how do you two "score" in the items of the above 1st 2 paragraphs? And if it's strong enough and your GF is only a fringe member of the "Lord's Recovery" and will not impose it's lifestyle and views on you, could you two build a life together?

Good points. We actually pass with flying colors on everything you mentioned. We don't differ much on opinions, but one of things we do differ on is regarding the church. This is due to her LRC upbringing and my non LRC upbringing. I know that the LRC is very much an encompassing lifestyle, I see it everyday. My issue lies not with the lifestyle itself, but rather it's motivation.

Originally Posted by ToGodAlone

Good points. We actually pass with flying colors on everything you mentioned. We don't differ much on opinions, but one of things we do differ on is regarding the church. This is due to her LRC upbringing and my non LRC upbringing. I know that the LRC is very much an encompassing lifestyle, I see it everyday. My issue lies not with the lifestyle itself, but rather it's motivation.

Motivation is a funny thing especially when we are talking about a small sub culture that someone grew up in. It may be quite simple and more or less unconscious: "This is what I know. This is what I am accustomed to."

Of course Witness taught and practiced religious bigotry and apartheid towards other Christians and the absence of the "Lord's Recovery" campus group at the All Campus worship event is an indication of how that plays out on the ground. Can a person grow up in such a sub culture and not be a bigot? I think so but they might be tainted by it for years to come since it's all they ever knew. On the other hand they may eventually reject that attitude and make an effort to be different. Not sure where your GF fits in on this issue and hopefully a college education is helping her broaden her horizons beyond the insularity and parochialism of her youth.

[ToGodAlone]

Originally Posted by OBW

A follow-up to my previous comments. I had some time talking with my Dad last night and realized that he does not even pretend that Lee is always right. And he is frustrated that there is no forum (within the LRC) to ask questions when it seems that they are obviously missing something. But he has a 38-year long community of fellowship that is otherwise a fairly sound evangelical group and just doesn't find cause to make a change.

If that is the nature of the family that you are dealing with, then there is surely hope.

I don't know her family's views on WL and if they think he is always right. She has said that she doesn't "worship" WL (but it's possible she does and doesn't realize it) or believe that he is always right. I think she did say something about some people in her meetings that might disagree with WL (though I can't remember for sure if that was her or something I read :frown. I think that if she was forced to choose, she would not always side with WL's views (ie his hymns being the only valid form of worship), but would tend to do so most of the time.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by ToGodAlone

I think that if she was forced to choose, she would not always side with WL's views (ie his hymns being the only valid form of worship), but would tend to do so most of the time.

FYI, there are more hymns in the hymnal that just Witness Lee's. It's just most hymns written by other saints over the last 100 years or so are not given acknowledgment that his are with a *. Unless you know a hymn and whose the hymn's author is, you wouldn't know unless credit is given. Case in point Blessed Assurance by Fannie Crosby. This hymn is in the hymnal, but you wouldn't know it was Fannie who wrote it unless you already knew. Maybe I'm nit-picking, but I'm just trying to make a point regarding the hymnal local churches use.

[ToGodAlone]

Originally Posted by Terry

FYI, there are more hymns in the hymnal that just Witness Lee's. It's just most hymns written by other saints over the last 100 years or so are not given acknowledgment that his are with a *. Unless you know a hymn and whose the hymn's author is, you wouldn't know unless credit is given. Case in point Blessed Assurance by Fannie Crosby. This hymn is in the hymnal, but you wouldn't know it was Fannie who wrote it unless you already knew. Maybe I'm nit-picking, but I'm just trying to make a point regarding the hymnal local churches use.

I've only seen the hymnal once and everything that was sung out of it was to my knowledge and WL written/modified hymn. I have seen that I Am Not Skilled to Understand by Dorothy Greenwell is in there and that there was a modified version of All in All, so I know that not EVERYTHING in there is written by WL.

[Lisbon]

Originally Posted by Terry

FYI, there are more hymns in the hymnal that just Witness Lee's. It's just most hymns written by other saints over the last 100 years or so are not given acknowledgment that his are with a *. Unless you know a hymn and whose the hymn's author is, you wouldn't know unless credit is given. Case in point Blessed Assurance by Fannie Crosby. This hymn is in the hymnal, but you wouldn't know it was Fannie who wrote it unless you already knew. Maybe I'm nit-picking, but I'm just trying to make a point regarding the hymnal local churches use.

Terry,

I just left two and half years ago and the regular hymnals had the authors in the back of the book. Not as obvious as WL's and other Chinese authors but they were there.

Lisbon

[ToGodAlone]

Originally Posted by NeitherFirstnorLast

The sentiments this young lady has expressed here are not uncommon amongst those within LSM's system. Lee was very adept at using language to confound his adherents. He often used vocabulary with which we may all be familiar, but he would then give it new definitions that could leave your head swimming. By this, he would leave many feeling that he was their intellectual as well as spiritual superior. This is a common tactic amongst lawyers, as well as a common tactic amongst salesmen. For young people growing up within Lee's system, reading only Lee, the use of Lee's verbage would define what is Christian and what isn't.

You pointed out in an earlier post that you called LSM's Hymnal Lee's hymnal - and you were right to do so. Lee wouldn't even permit songs from other Christian groups to be the focus of worship - he had to have his own songs with his own words (not that he wrote all of them in that hymnal, but his 'unique ministry' colored them all, or most of them). Abandoning his system means abandoning cherished songs, ways of praying, ways of meeting, ways of thinking about and expressing your faith, ways of preaching of the gospel, and ways of thinking about yourself. That's a lot to abandon; and as you will note from the length of time many have spent on this forum, it can take a long long time to work through that.

A very valid point, it is a lot to abandon. So much so that I am worried about how she would adjust especially since she doesn't like drastic change all that much (and this would very much be a drastic change). Seeing as how this forum was created so that you all could help each other cope and whatnot (unless there's more to it in which case I apologize for being shallow minded or something) I'd say that I still very much have a long way to go even if she does agree to leave eventually. That said, how have you all coped being out of the LRC after all these years? How long did it take you to adjust?

[NeitherFirstnorLast]

Originally Posted by ToGodAlone

A very valid point, it is a lot to abandon. So much so that I am worried about how she would adjust especially since she doesn't like drastic change all that much (and this would very much be a drastic change).

We have scared you! I am so sorry brother; in our zealous haste to expose the fallacies within the system, we've caused you to lose sight of the very thing you came here to find: A way to reconcile your faith with that of your girlfriends'.

Brother, please imagine that this girl whom you (I presume) love was a Jehovah's Witness. You know, I believe that Local Churches have far more in common with Kingdom Halls than they do with mainstream Evangelical or Orthodox churches.... just as the HWfMR has more in common with the Watchtower than it does with mainstream Christianity's daily devotional books... but I digress: Now, if you loved this Jehovah's Witness, and love the Lord your God with all of your heart, would you dare hesitate to share with her the TRUE gospel message, even though she appeared to be almost right religiously anyway? Would you risk her love to gain her soul? Don't you know that you can be sure that whoever brings a sinner back will save that person from death and bring about the forgiveness of many sins? (James 5:20)

This is the situation: The gospel preached by Lee was not and is not the true gospel of Jesus Christ, nor is the Jesus of the Bible the 'processed, digested, triune God' Lee has proposed. Lee preached a different Jesus, and you know what that makes him.

2nd Corinthians 4:12 excerpted: "You happily put up with whatever anyone tells you, even if they preach a different Jesus than the one we preach, or a different kind of Spirit than the one you received, or a different kind of gospel than the one you believed. But I don’t consider myself inferior in any way to these “super apostles” who teach such things. I may be unskilled as a speaker, but I’m not lacking in knowledge. We have made this clear to you in every possible way. These people are false apostles. They are deceitful workers who disguise themselves as apostles of Christ. But I am not surprised! Even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light."

Galatians 1:8-9 "Let God’s curse fall on anyone, including us or even an angel from heaven, who preaches a different kind of Good News than the one we preached to you.I say again what we have said before: If anyone preaches any other Good News than the one you welcomed, let that person be cursed."

Brother, your girlfriend and her family and all the folks left behind in these LSM churches are victims. Some are willingly blind, its true - but she is young; she believes what she has been told by her family, her friends, and those she's been raised to see as her spiritual superiors. Her blindness is not her fault... not yet. She believes she has superior understanding of scripture because she has been consuming LSM doctrine for her whole life... but the Pharisees boasted likewise. Christ did not give up on them: His messages to them were sharp and to the point and many went unrepentant to their graves... But He did not mince words - and He still spoke to them and urged them to repent and see the error of their ways. We MUST do the same - and that is why we come to this Forum.

Brother, you said in an earlier post that your girlfriend found the depth of your Bible Studies lacking. This is an odd thing to say, considering that the groups with whom I met never had a Bible Study at all. They studied the HWfMR, they studied the footnotes for certain, and they would also study Life Study messages... but the Bible? The Pure Word of God? That I did not see. Perhaps in different "localities", but not in the ones I went too... You see, LSM's 'burden', if you will, is that we all NEED the "Interpreted Word" - the Word as interpreted by Witness Lee.

While in Anaheim, I was shown a video of one of Witness Lee's 'messages' (sermons), and here is what he 'released' (said) in that message: I wrote it in my Bible so I would not forget the words or tone the man took...

"I have worn out seven Bibles!"
"You've considered the 'Lord's Recovery' too lightly. You've never read the Recovery Version - yet you consider that you know something?! Not a short period of study would qualify you... You think it's easy to get (the truth)? It takes years! You think you can do better?! How much time have YOU spent?"
"You can't get as much nourishment from any book as you can from the Recovery Version of the Bible."

You hear what he's saying, of course: He is saying that he (Lee) is specially qualified to interpret the Bible for us. No one else in all of Christianity has his unique gift... this is why he called himself the "Minister of the Age" (a title you are unlikely to hear repeated these days, but one he used regardless). Whether your girlfriend ever heard messages like this or not is irrelevant, she has been taught to believe that she needs the footnotes to help her understand the Bible. That means she believes the footnotes must be 100% correct, that means she must believe that Lee had what no true man of God would dare to suggest he had: A thorough and complete understanding of everything God spoke in His Word to us.
It also means she doesn't understand what the Lord told us in His Word:

Matthew 23:8-12 "Don’t let anyone call you ‘Rabbi,’ for you have only one teacher, and all of you are equal as brothers and sisters. And don’t address anyone here on earth as ‘Father,’ for only God in heaven is your spiritual Father. And don’t let anyone call you ‘Teacher,’ for you have only one teacher, the Messiah.The greatest among you must be a servant. But those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted."

Jeremiah 31:31-34 "“The day is coming,” says the Lord, “when I will make a new covenant with the people of Israel and Judah. This covenant will not be like the one I made with their ancestors when I took them by the hand and brought them out of the land of Egypt. They broke that covenant, though I loved them as a husband loves his wife,” says the Lord.
“But this is the new covenant I will make with the people of Israel on that day,” says the Lord. “I will put my instructions deep within them, and I will write them on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people.And they will not need to teach their neighbors, nor will they need to teach their relatives, saying, ‘You should know the Lord.’ For everyone, from the least to the greatest, will know me already,” says the Lord. “And I will forgive their wickedness, and I will never again remember their sins.”

John 14:16-17 "And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Advocate,who will never leave you. He is the Holy Spirit, who leads into all truth. The world cannot receive him, because it isn’t looking for him and doesn’t recognize him. But you know him, because he lives with you now and later will be in you."

John 14:26 "...when the Father sends the Advocate as my representative—that is, the Holy Spirit—he will teach you everything and will remind you of everything I have told you."

Brother, this shouldn't be about opening your girlfriends eyes to who Lee was. It has to be about opening her eyes to who Christ is. And only One can open the eyes of your girlfriend to the real truth about Christ. You know who that One is.

You need to get on your knees and pray for her, and you need others to stand with you in prayer for her and her family. She has believed a lie, and her eyes need to be opened. LSM is not just a church of a different flavour, it isn't just a harmless group of Christians who think too much of themselves - it is a crippled 'church' that has lost sight of the Faithful and True Witness - Christ Himself.

Are the people within these Local Churches real brothers and sisters in Christ? Perhaps no more or less so than any other gathering group of professing believers... which is to say, some certainly are, and likely many are not. That is for God to Judge, and again, He judges the heart. The issue is not whether they are genuine believers, rather it is how does what they believe allow them to live a life that Honors Him: Remember that He said many times that to love Him is to Obey Him (John 14:15)... are they obeying Him? Do they even understand that they need to Obey Him, or do they believe that they only need to 'breathe Him, eat Him, drink Him and enjoy Him'?

Brother, if your girlfriend believes your Bible studies lack depth, why not ask her to do a private Bible study with just you? It need not be done in private, but privately: together. The two of you in God's Word... without footnotes, that He may speak in His still, small voice to her heart.

James is the first written book of the New Testament, and it is a book that frustrated Lee. He believed James 'didn't get it', because James said that "faith without works is dead"... But God used James to write into His canon of Scripture. He didn't use Lee.

1st John is a book about the love for the brethren... and that is something also sorely lacking in Lee's ministry.

I don't know brother, I don't know where you ought to start... but I know He does. I pray that He shows you... and opens a door in this girl's heart. Lord God, please - open the eyes of these ones that they may see... and let the scales of the serpent fall away.


Your brother,

NeitherFirstnorLast

[ToGodAlone]

Originally Posted by NeitherFirstnorLast

We have scared you! I am so sorry brother; in our zealous haste to expose the fallacies within the system, we've caused you to lose sight of the very thing you came here to find: A way to reconcile your faith with that of your girlfriends'.

Your brother,

NeitherFirstnorLast

Brother NeitherFirstnorLast,

Thank you so much for your insight. I apologize for only putting the beginning and end in quotes and leaving out all the actually important words you put, but for the sake of not having a ridiculously long response message (I myself tend to get annoyed having to scroll through extraneous quotes and things trying to get to the actual response) I have left it out.

I would however, first like to respond to something you said about Bible studies. I have no idea what goes on in these Bible studies. I do know that they read out of the RcV since I have seen her bring it there and back with nothing else (ie HWfMR, Life studies, etc). I am only guessing that they read from the footnotes as well, but I don't know for sure. Like you, I have nothing but speculation beyond the fact that they use the RcV. Perhaps that's all the evidence necessary. It would make sense that if they used the footnotes that they would be the "depth" that is lacking in my Bible studies.

But onto more serious matters...

Since my first discovery of what the Recovery was and what it stood for I have been wary of it. Perhaps that is God's way of warning me of the words I was reading. To clarify, I had been reading a lot of LSM sponsored websites trying to find the errors in their words myself. I even read footnotes from the RcV with two of my closest brothers in the church. They possess far more biblical knowledge than I and yet even they could not find an error in the footnotes that we read. We probably weren't looking in the right places for such things, but nonetheless even then I still was convinced that there had to be something that was up with regards to the LRC.

Perhaps I held a strange fear of knowing that the girl I love (and yes, you presumed very much correctly) believed in false teachings. Whatever it was, I guess you could say my burning desire to expose these false teachings diminished. Perhaps they diminished for her sake, knowing that if she knew what she has grown up with is indeed false teachings, her life may very well be shattered. Still, I have prayed every day for God to open both my heart and hers to His will. I would have a hard time believing that God would not want another soul for His kingdom, and so I have remained, and continue to remain hopeful that somehow I or something/someone else could convince her of the truth. Problem is, I also have no idea where to start. Perhaps it that I am not mature enough in my own knowledge to refute all the false teachings in front of her, perhaps it's something else. Maybe I will find the answer here on this forum (no pressure) or maybe simply just partial answers, but I'm sure you guys can be nothing but helpful to us.

At the very least, I ask for your prayers. Prayer is our most powerful tool in situations like these.

In Christ,
ToGodAlone

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by ToGodAlone

Since my first discovery of what the Recovery was and what it stood for I have been wary of it. Perhaps that is God's way of warning me of the words I was reading. To clarify, I had been reading a lot of LSM sponsored websites trying to find the errors in their words myself. I even read footnotes from the RcV with two of my closest brothers in the church. They possess far more biblical knowledge than I and yet even they could not find an error in the footnotes that we read. We probably weren't looking in the right places for such things, but nonetheless even then I still was convinced that there had to be something that was up with regards to the LRC.

The recovery I was raised is not the same one that exists today. It is shadow of what it was once like. It used to be what the community churches today are; a place you can invite to bring your friends. Today's recovery is quoted by a blended co-worker on another thread;

"Not everyone belongs in the Lord’s recovery. I know a number of brothers and sisters that just don’t belong in the Lord’s recovery. It takes a special calling from the Lord for a person to be willing to pay the price to be in the Lord’s recovery. "

This is if you don't gravitate towards "the ministry", the recovery is probably not for you. Don't get me wrong there are positives in the recovery, but there are also negatives. Thing is it is like an elephant in the room no one wants to admit is present.

You mentioned footnotes. For all the footnotes included in the New Testament, how come there is nothing for "take heed" in Acts 20:28? One that has bothered me is footnote 17 to James 4:17, " A concluding word to all the charges in the preceding verses. It says that if the recipients of this Epistle are helped by James's writing and yet will not do as he wrote, to them it is sin."
Point is this word from James is based from Old testament scripture.

[ToGodAlone]

Originally Posted by Terry

The recovery I was raised is not the same one that exists today. It is shadow of what it was once like. It used to be what the community churches today are; a place you can invite to bring your friends. Today's recovery is quoted by a blended co-worker on another thread;

"Not everyone belongs in the Lord’s recovery. I know a number of brothers and sisters that just don’t belong in the Lord’s recovery. It takes a special calling from the Lord for a person to be willing to pay the price to be in the Lord’s recovery. "

This is if you don't gravitate towards "the ministry", the recovery is probably not for you. Don't get me wrong there are positives in the recovery, but there are also negatives. Thing is it is like an elephant in the room no one wants to admit is present.

You mentioned footnotes. For all the footnotes included in the New Testament, how come there is nothing for "take heed" in Acts 20:28? One that has bothered me is footnote 17 to James 4:17, " A concluding word to all the charges in the preceding verses. It says that if the recipients of this Epistle are helped by James's writing and yet will not do as he wrote, to them it is sin."
Point is this word from James is based from Old testament scripture.

A blended co-worker? Forgive my lack of knowledge of the terminology, but that honestly sounds like he was put in a blender. Sorry...anyway...

Are you saying that nowadays they're telling people that you can only be in the recovery if you agree with that they teach you? If so then that's a pretty surefire way to get lots of LRC "fanatics".

What exactly did you mean concerning the footnote? Was it that since James's statement had OT origins that WL considered it invalid or something?