Last Adam became a life-giving spirit.

[Thankful Jane]

Originally Posted by Shawn

Yes, the Holy Spirit has always existed, but the Holy Spirit could not enter into man as the giver of Gods life, until the death and ressurrection of our Lord Jesus; .

Okay, I'm with you up to here, Shawn ...

Originally Posted by Shawn

it was at this point that the Holy Spirit could become the life giving Spirit.

I'm no longer with you on this. The Bible shows plainly that the "life-giving" Spirit already existed. The truth is that it was at this point that God accepted Christ's offering for sin (as evidenced by His resurrection) and we were able to believe God's forgiveness and receive the Holy Spirit. No change happened in the Holy Spirit so that it could become something it wasn't before this.

Originally Posted by Shawn

This is the main point as I understood it from brother Lee's ministry. Not two Spirits but one Spirit that became the life giver to man after the Lords ressurrection.

Shawn, I understood this, too. When I was under WL's ministry, I didn't believe he taught that there were two Spirits. I simply believed there was a new and improved version of the Spirit after the resurrection, because Lee told me there was. I believed it was only this new product that could give us life. I didn't question anything. I didn't look at the Bible for myself and pray and ask God to show me if this was true. I just believed Witness Lee because he was older and knew the Bible better than I did.

When He said God had been under a long process to make this new product, I said amen. I believed the processed Triune God teaching that said there was no life-giving Spirit until Christ resurrected.

Lee clearly taught this. He said that after Christ's resurrection, the Spirit, after a long process finally had all the necessary ingredients and had become a new product . There is no question that he taught this. He taught this plainly. This is what I am objecting to.

The Spirit didn't need any new ingredients. Everything Christ needed to tabernacle in the flesh on the earth, to walk without sin, to be obedient unto death, to be raised from the dead was in existence in God before Christ became flesh. God prepared a body for him through the virgin birth, not so He could add some new ingredients to the godhead, but so he could be a sacrifice for our sins. (Heb. 10:5-13).

To say otherwise is to say that God was lacking something and was under development in order to become something over time. This is exactly what Lee said. This is not true. The Bible does not support this. Lee brought this teaching into being through faulty interpretations.

He used his interpretation of John 7:37-39 to support his belief about the development of God, saying this verse shows the product wasn't complete yet. He then used his "compound" ointment interpretation of Exodus 30 to support his belief further. (I'll comment on Ex. 30 in my response to Paul M.)

The gospel is simple. Jesus is God's Lamb. In Him we see God's self-sacrificing love for us. As God's Lamb He suffered and died so we could be saved from our sins and be reconciled to God. We can now have a relationship with God by faith. Just what is wrong with this gospel? Why do we need some kind of teaching about a new God product? The gospel doesn't need improvement nor does God.

It's not too late to humble ourselves like little children and pray and ask God to show us what is true. I am starting to learn to do that. We each need to be persuaded in our own mind using the tools God gave us (the Bible, prayer, fellowship with others, etc.).

Why is all this important? Because wrong beliefs about God and about how he relates to us can hurt our walks with God. I have experienced myself and witnessed firsthand how Lee's teachings in this vein have hindered people from having real relationships with a living God who relates to each of us as unique individuals.

God is a living, interactive being who talks with us, asks questions of us, answers questions, corrects, instructs, encourages, leads, etc. He empowers us by His Spirit as we are in fellowship with Him. God isn't just some new product with power packed ingredients that will automatically do things for us without our conscious involvement if we just keep the intravenous line connected by calling and pray-reading.

I have seen the trail of tears of those who took Lee's teaching and way as the way. But that is another topic.

Thankful Jane

[Paul Miletus]

Originally Posted by Thankful Jane

I'm no longer with you on this. The Bible shows plainly that the "life-giving" Spirit already existed. The truth is that it was at this point that God accepted Christ's offering for sin (as evidenced by His resurrection) and we were able to believe God's forgiveness and receive the Holy Spirit. No change happened in the Holy Spirit so that it could become something it wasn't before this.

If the Bible shows plainly that the "life-giving" Spirit already existed, why then the following Scriptures say:

John 7:37-39
37On the last and greatest day of the Feast, Jesus stood and said in a loud voice, "If anyone is thirsty, let him come to me and drink. 38Whoever believes in me, as[a] the Scripture has said, streams of living water will flow from within him." 39By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive. Up to that time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified.

The Spirit became "a life-giving Spirit" only after the death and resurrection of the Lord Jesus. Through incarnation, the Lord Jesus was the "Immanuel" (God is with us); through death and resurrection, the Lord Jesus became "a life-giving Spirit" wherefore now He can come INTO us to those who believe in Him.

Brother Witness Lee clearly taught with regards to 1Corinthians 15:45 as follows:

Through creation Adam became a living soul with a soulish body. Through resurrection Christ became a life-giving Spirit with a spiritual body. Adam as a living soul is natural; Christ as a life-giving Spirit is resurrected. First, in incarnation He became flesh for redemption (John 1:14, 29); then, in resurrection He became a life-giving Spirit for the imparting of life (John 10:10b). Through incarnation He had a soulish body, as Adam had; through resurrection He has a spiritual body. His soulish body has become a spiritual one through resurrection. Now He is a life-giving Spirit in resurrection, with a spiritual body, ready to be received by His believers. When we believe into Him, He enters our spirit, and we are joined to Him as the life-giving Spirit. Hence, we become one spirit with Him (6:17). Our spirit is made alive and is resurrected with Him. Eventually, our present soulish body will become a spiritual body in resurrection, just like His (vv. 52-54; Phil. 3:21).

[KSA]

Originally Posted by Paul Miletus

The Spirit became "a life-giving Spirit" only after the death and resurrection of the Lord Jesus.

John 6:63 says "the Spirit gives life" (present tense). It means that the Spirit was life-giving even prior to the resurrection of Christ. However, before the problem of our sins was solved, we could not receive this Spirit - blood first, then anointing.

[Paul Miletus]

Originally Posted by KSA

John 6:63 says "the Spirit gives life" (present tense). It means that the Spirit was life-giving even prior to the resurrection of Christ. However, before the problem of our sins was solved, we could not receive this Spirit - blood first, then anointing.

Was there anyone saved (given and received eternal life) by the Lord Jesus at the time of John 6:63?

In fact, this was the very time that many disciples deserted the Lord Jesus on hearing that He is the "bread of life".

John 6
66From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him.
67"You do not want to leave too, do you?" Jesus asked the Twelve.
68Simon Peter answered him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69We believe and know that you are the Holy One of God."

Only in John 20 after the Lord Jesus resurrected from the death that He was able to give "life" to his disciples:

John 20
21Again Jesus said, "Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you." 22And with that he breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit.

[KSA]

Originally Posted by Paul Miletus

Was there anyone saved (given and received eternal life) by the Lord Jesus at the time of John 6:63?

In fact, this was the very time that many disciples deserted the Lord Jesus on hearing that He is the "bread of life".

No, nobody received eternal life then. First of all, because of the problem of sin. But the fact that people did not receive eternal life does not mean that the Spirit was not able to give life.

Only in John 20 after the Lord Jesus resurrected from the death that He was able to give "life" to his disciples:

Agreed! But it does not mean that His resurrection changed the Holy Spirit. In His resurrection He was the first man who was glorified by the Holy Spirit.

[Paul Miletus]

Originally Posted by KSA

No, nobody received eternal life then. First of all, because of the problem of sin. But the fact that people did not receive eternal life does not mean that the Spirit was not able to give life.

Agreed! But it does not mean that His resurrection changed the Holy Spirit. In His resurrection He was the first man who was glorified by the Holy Spirit.

The "death [myrrh and cinnamon] and resurrection [cane and cassia]" of the Lord Jesus was added to the Spirit [olive oil] in order for Him to manifest Himself to those who believes in Him will receive eternal life. Exodus 30:23-24 is an allegorization of the Spirit becoming an all-inclusive Spirit.

Exodus 30:23-24
23 "Take the following fine spices: 500 shekels of liquid myrrh, half as much (that is, 250 shekels) of fragrant cinnamon, 250 shekels of fragrant cane, 24 500 shekels of cassia—all according to the sanctuary shekel—and a hin of olive oil.

The Holy Spirit was not changed. It was the Lord Jesus two becomings should be noted. In His incarnation He became flesh (John 1:14); in His death and resurrection He became a life-giving Spirit (1Corinthians 15:45).

Allow me to post here the footnote from RcV on John 20:22. Please carefully note the phrase "It is as the Spirit" that was mentioned 9 times in the footnote.

221 This was the Spirit expected in 7:39 and promised in 14:16-17, 26; 15:26; and 16:7-8, 13. Hence, the Lord's breathing of the Holy Spirit into the disciples was the fulfillment of His promise of the Holy Spirit as the Comforter. This fulfillment differs from the one in Acts 2:1-4, which was the fulfillment of the Father's promise in Luke 24:49. (See note 171 in ch. 14.) In Acts 2 the Spirit as a rushing, violent wind came as power upon the disciples for their work (Acts 1:8). Here the Spirit as breath was breathed as life into the disciples for their life. By breathing the Spirit into the disciples, the Lord imparted Himself into them as life and everything. Thus, all that He had spoken in chs. 14--16 could be fulfilled.

As falling into the ground to die and growing out of the ground transform the grain of wheat into another form, one that is new and living, so the death and resurrection of the Lord transfigured Him from the flesh into the Spirit. As the last Adam in the flesh, through the process of death and resurrection He became a life-giving Spirit (1 Cor. 15:45). As He is the embodiment of the Father, so the Spirit is the realization, the reality, of Him. It is as the Spirit that He was breathed into the disciples. It is as the Spirit that He is received into His believers and flows out of them as rivers of living water (7:38-39). It is as the Spirit that through His death and resurrection He came back to the disciples, entered into them as their Comforter, and began to abide in them (14:16-17). It is as the Spirit that He can live in the disciples and enable them to live by and with Him (14:19). It is as the Spirit that He can abide in the disciples and enable them to abide in Him (14:20; 15:4-5). It is as the Spirit that He can come with the Father to His lover and make an abode with him (14:23). It is as the Spirit that He can cause all that He is and has to be fully realized by the disciples (16:13-16). It is as the Spirit that He came to meet with His brothers as the church to declare the Father's name to them and to praise the Father in their midst (Heb. 2:11-12). It is as the Spirit that He can send His disciples for His commission, with Himself as life and everything to them, in the same way that the Father sent Him (v. 21). They are thus qualified to represent Him with His authority in the fellowship of His Body (v. 23) for the carrying out of His commission.

The Lord was the Word, and the Word is the eternal God (1:1). For the accomplishing of God's eternal purpose, He took two steps. First, He took the step of incarnation to become a man in the flesh (1:14), to be the Lamb of God to accomplish redemption for man (1:29), to declare God to man (1:18), and to manifest the Father to His believers (14:9-11). Second, He took the step of death and resurrection to be transfigured into the Spirit that He might impart Himself into His believers as their life and their everything, and that He might bring forth many sons of God, His many brothers, for the building of His Body, the church, the habitation of God, to express the Triune God for eternity. Hence, originally He was the eternal Word; then, through His incarnation He became flesh to accomplish God's redemption, and through His death and resurrection He became the Spirit to be everything and do everything for the completion of God's building.