Overcomer Doctrine (Merged Thread)

[Zezima]

Is there any validity to this doctrine in the LR? It feels like a works based salvation, and did nothing but make me personally anxious / pursue God out of fear I’d be left in the outer darkness. I’ve since broken free of it, or at least refuse to believe it as it seems to contradict the gospel. It’s such a focal point in the LR and it’s the motivation of a lot of members Christian lives. Can we break this doctrine down? What if any validity does it have? Apart from the parables in Matthew about the virgins, or the talents.. is this doctrine sound at all?

How can someone who’s been saved by Grace, still not be accepted by God? It doesn’t make sense.

[Sons to Glory!]

This has been discussed on this forum A LOT in previous threads, and maybe someone can link to them. To me the bottom-line is that that scripture promotes that we are certainly saved by grace, yet there is still accountability for what we do afterwards in this mortal body. The LC takes this accountability to an extreme . . . when I was in the group I got a morbid fear that God was actually out to get me for not measuring up. And that included that He most likely (according to the teachings I heard) would whack me hard if I left the LC, because it was the only place where His blessing and real growth in Christ could take place. This is an extreme and manipulative fear based teaching, to say the least.

Nonetheless, there is still a race to run, a prize to gain and an accountability for believers at the Bema judgement of Christ. However, these days I've come to look at this as more as a potential loss of reward than an outright punishment.

[UntoHim]

The real problem is not that Witness Lee taught that there will be reward and punishment for believers, (the Bible clearly teaches this) the problem is that he taught, in so many words, that the reward and punishment is going to be based upon how one treated his person and his work. If one did not fully accept his authority as the One Minister, the sole Oracle of God on earth, and fully accept his ministry as the One Ministry for the Age, they were never going to be an overcomer.

For confirmation, I submit a direct quote from Mr. Benson Philipps, President of the Living Stream Ministry:
“In any case, do not leave the Lord’s recovery. I can assure you that if you go away from the Lord’s recovery, you will have no way for the process of sanctification to go forward within you. Instead, you will just enter into a bankrupt situation. I know of no one who has left the Lord’s recovery and today is a great spiritual person on the earth. The sanctification process is carried out in the Lord’s recovery”
(The Ministry Magazine Vol. 8, No. 1 Page 189, first paragraph)

This statement is not surprising at all to any of us who spend any significant time in the Local Church of Witness Lee. If one leaves their tiny little, insignificant personality cult, not only will they never be an overcomer, they won't even be able to have "the process of sanctification" go forward within them. And they wonder why people call the Local Church a cult.
-

[Zezima]

So it’s partially true?

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Zezima

So it’s partially true?

Zezima,

To break down the “overcomer” doctrine, can you first define it, precisely, so we can all start on the same page?

Thanks—
Nell

[Zezima]

I suppose that would help this discussion.

Overcomer doctrine: There is a group of Christians who were successful in their Christian lives by gaining the amount of spirit that God requires of them. This group of Christians is different than others because they have gained more God. Every Christian is saved from eternal hell, however some Christians don’t gain enough christ in their life so they are sent to outer darkness for 1,000 years, a place separated from God and a place where they will gain the Christ they failed to gain. Overcomers however will be sent to a feast with God for 1,000 years. In short, overcomers are genuinely saved Christians that gained more God in their life and are rewarded with 1,000s of feasting.

This is how I would define or describes LR definition of being a overcomer.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Zezima

I suppose that would help this discussion.

Overcomer doctrine: There is a group of Christians who were successful in their Christian lives by gaining the amount of spirit that God requires of them. This group of Christians is different than others because they have gained more God. Every Christian is saved from eternal hell, however some Christians don’t gain enough christ in their life so they are sent to outer darkness for 1,000 years, a place separated from God and a place where they will gain the Christ they failed to gain. Overcomers however will be sent to a feast with God for 1,000 years. In short, overcomers are genuinely saved Christians that gained more God in their life and are rewarded with 1,000s of feasting.

This is how I would define or describes LR definition of being a overcomer.

Ok. What is the scriptural basis for applying the word “overcomer” to this teaching? 😁

Nell

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by Zezima

I suppose that would help this discussion.

Overcomer doctrine: There is a group of Christians who were successful in their Christian lives by gaining the amount of spirit that God requires of them. This group of Christians is different than others because they have gained more God. Every Christian is saved from eternal hell, however some Christians don’t gain enough christ in their life so they are sent to outer darkness for 1,000 years, a place separated from God and a place where they will gain the Christ they failed to gain. Overcomers however will be sent to a feast with God for 1,000 years. In short, overcomers are genuinely saved Christians that gained more God in their life and are rewarded with 1,000s of feasting.

This is how I would define or describes LR definition of being a overcomer.

That sounds like what I recall too.

Can you (or anyone participating) think of and include any of the verses the LR would use to justify this?

The one that comes to mind for me are the ones in Matthew 25 about the 10 virgins. The LR would say that the oil in their lamps represented the Spirit we had gained.

Matthew 25:1-12
1 “At that time the kingdom of heaven will be like ten virgins who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom.
2 Five of them were foolish and five were wise.
3 The foolish ones took their lamps but did not take any oil with them.
4 The wise ones, however, took oil in jars along with their lamps.
5 The bridegroom was a long time in coming, and they all became drowsy and fell asleep.
6 “At midnight the cry rang out: ‘Here’s the bridegroom! Come out to meet him!’
7 “Then all the virgins woke up and trimmed their lamps.
8 The foolish ones said to the wise, ‘Give us some of your oil; our lamps are going out.’
9 “ ‘No,’ they replied, ‘there may not be enough for both us and you. Instead, go to those who sell oil and buy some for yourselves.’
10 “But while they were on their way to buy the oil, the bridegroom arrived. The virgins who were ready went in with him to the wedding banquet. And the door was shut.
11 “Later the others also came. ‘Lord, Lord,’ they said, ‘open the door for us!’
12 “But he replied, ‘Truly I tell you, I don’t know you.’
13 “Therefore keep watch, because you do not know the day or the hour.

I have some comments about whether the teaching holds up to these verses, but are there other verses we can add to the mix first so we have a set of things to look at? I'm drawing a blank on others right now.

Trapped

[Nell]

The word “overcomer” I cannot find in the Bible. The word “overcome”, or overcometh, in context of your question appears 6 times:

Revelation 2:7
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

Revelation 2:11
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

Revelation 2:17
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.

Revelation 2:26
And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

Revelation 3:5
He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

Revelation 3:12
Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

These verses seem neither to apply to a group of believers, nor something a group would do. It doesn’t seem like “overcometh” is specifically defined, but is an “if/then” statement. If you overcome, then I will…” Maybe, ”if you do what I have given you to do, then I will reward you as follows: …”

I have never understood the Lee teaching in the context of these verses.

Nell

[Bible-believer]

1John 5:4

For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

5:5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

[Zezima]

Revelation 15 is used to justify the doctrine as well, saints on the sea of glass.

Seems like there isn’t much to justify it in the word without reading the idea into the text. It’s such a motivating factor though for many saints, they pursue out of fear. So many times have I heard from saints who have been meeting for years, “I hope I’m ready” for gods second coming. The “ready” part, is being an overcomer.

The whole thing always rubbed me the wrong way, long before I left and even when I was a diehard LR saint. It feels like it negates the cross completely and everything Jesus did for us.

[Bible-believer]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

For confirmation, I submit a direct quote from Mr. Benson Philipps, President of the Living Stream Ministry:
“In any case, do not leave the Lord’s recovery. I can assure you that if you go away from the Lord’s recovery, you will have no way for the process of sanctification to go forward within you. Instead, you will just enter into a bankrupt situation. I know of no one who has left the Lord’s recovery and today is a great spiritual person on the earth. The sanctification process is carried out in the Lord’s recovery”
(The Ministry Magazine Vol. 8, No. 1 Page 189, first paragraph)

This statement is not surprising at all to any of us who spend any significant time in the Local Church of Witness Lee. If one leaves their tiny little, insignificant personality cult, not only will they never be an overcomer, they won't even be able to have "the process of sanctification" go forward within them. And they wonder why people call the Local Church a cult.
-

You reminded me of one thing. I attended a meeting regarding God's action last year. The leading brother said if you would miss the meeting, then you would miss the Rapture.

It sounded like no matter how perfect you were, as long as you missed any meeting, you would have missed the Rapture.

[Zezima]

Originally Posted by Bible-believer

You reminded me of one thing. I attended a meeting regarding God's action last year. The leading brother said if you would miss the meeting, then you would miss the Rapture.

It sounded like no matter how perfect you were, as long as you missed any meeting, you would have missed the Rapture.

That’s the thing, the whole doctrine seems to put mans righteousness on man rather than anchor our identity / righteousness in Christ.

[Bible-believer]

I was reading this article,
<The PAPAL ENCYCLICALS IN THEIR HISTORICAL CONTEXT >
“Catholicism insists that it teaches the preaching of Christ, and only that. The Catholic believes that his beliefs are identical with those of the Apostolic Church without a jot or tittle changed.”

“Hence it is that the Catholic does not say in the first instance ‘What does the Book say?’ Rather he asks, ‘What does the teaching church say?’”

“This fundamental vision of the church causes the Catholic to look to the episcopate for doctrine because the Roman Catholic bishops are the authentic exponents of God’s message. This is no idolatry of the bishops or their primate, the Bishop of Rome, but it is only a consequence of the Catholic theory of the church.”

Do those doctrinal statements sound familiar to us?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Bible-believer

I was reading this article,
<The PAPAL ENCYCLICALS IN THEIR HISTORICAL CONTEXT >
“Catholicism insists that it teaches the preaching of Christ, and only that. The Catholic believes that his beliefs are identical with those of the Apostolic Church without a jot or tittle changed.”

“Hence it is that the Catholic does not say in the first instance ‘What does the Book say?’ Rather he asks, ‘What does the teaching church say?’”

“This fundamental vision of the church causes the Catholic to look to the episcopate for doctrine because the Roman Catholic bishops are the authentic exponents of God’s message. This is no idolatry of the bishops or their primate, the Bishop of Rome, but it is only a consequence of the Catholic theory of the church.”

Do those doctrinal statements sound familiar to us?

Sure, they sound familiar, and make no mistake, the Blendeds are an episcopate, living on the memory of their long dead Popes.

I grew up in the Catholic church hearing that there is “no idolatry,” and we believed that nonsense as they made us pray to all their statues. Kind of like believing the LC is in some way “L-O-C-A-L” after receiving yet another mandate from Cleveland or Anaheim.

[Zezima]

Originally Posted by Bible-believer

I was reading this article,
<The PAPAL ENCYCLICALS IN THEIR HISTORICAL CONTEXT >
“Catholicism insists that it teaches the preaching of Christ, and only that. The Catholic believes that his beliefs are identical with those of the Apostolic Church without a jot or tittle changed.”

“Hence it is that the Catholic does not say in the first instance ‘What does the Book say?’ Rather he asks, ‘What does the teaching church say?’”

“This fundamental vision of the church causes the Catholic to look to the episcopate for doctrine because the Roman Catholic bishops are the authentic exponents of God’s message. This is no idolatry of the bishops or their primate, the Bishop of Rome, but it is only a consequence of the Catholic theory of the church.”

Do those doctrinal statements sound familiar to us?

“What does the ministry say”

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by Trapped

The one that comes to mind for me are the ones in Matthew 25 about the 10 virgins. The LR would say that the oil in their lamps represented the Spirit we had gained.

Matthew 25:1-12
1 “At that time the kingdom of heaven will be like ten virgins who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom.
2 Five of them were foolish and five were wise.
3 The foolish ones took their lamps but did not take any oil with them.
4 The wise ones, however, took oil in jars along with their lamps.
5 The bridegroom was a long time in coming, and they all became drowsy and fell asleep.
6 “At midnight the cry rang out: ‘Here’s the bridegroom! Come out to meet him!’
7 “Then all the virgins woke up and trimmed their lamps.
8 The foolish ones said to the wise, ‘Give us some of your oil; our lamps are going out.’
9 “ ‘No,’ they replied, ‘there may not be enough for both us and you. Instead, go to those who sell oil and buy some for yourselves.’
10 “But while they were on their way to buy the oil, the bridegroom arrived. The virgins who were ready went in with him to the wedding banquet. And the door was shut.
11 “Later the others also came. ‘Lord, Lord,’ they said, ‘open the door for us!’
12 “But he replied, ‘Truly I tell you, I don’t know you.’
13 “Therefore keep watch, because you do not know the day or the hour.

Here are a couple of my thoughts about the local church interpretation of this passage. Essentially the local church's interpretation falls in line with their categories of "real (spiritual) believer", "real (soulish) believer", and everyone else, including false believers and the unsaved.

I personally think the Bible shows "real believer", "false believer (or believer in name only)", and everyone else. And I think that distinction comes into play in this parable.

First of all, we can back up to the parable before this one, in Matthew 24:45-51. It's about the faithful and wise servant put in charge of his master's possessions, and he is contrasted with what is called a "wicked servant" who beats his fellow servants and gets drunk, etc. The wicked servant thinks the master will be gone a long time and so he lives like it.

It seems to me the parable of the 10 virgins is saying something similar. The wise virgins are genuine believers, "in it for the long haul" so to speak, who have oil in their lamps and bring oil with them.....prepared for a long wait but ready for when He comes. The foolish virgins don't do the same thing. This reminds me of the seeds that fell on differing soils. The seeds that fall on rocky soil do spring up, but then wither away because the soil is shallow.

The reason I don't think this parable is about believers who get shut out is because the Lord says "Truly I tell you, I don't know you."

But if we look at related verses in Matthew 7, it seems like the ones the Lord doesn't know are ones He never knew. Here they are in Matthew 7, saying "Lord, Lord" just like in Matthew 25, and trying to enter the kingdom of the heaven just as described in Matthew 25:

Matthew 7:21-23
21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’
23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

And Jesus says not only does He not know them, but He never knew them.

If the Lord NEVER knew them, then this cannot be believers. So I don't see grounds for applying Matthew 25 and saying that some genuine believers will have the door slammed in their face by the Lord, telling them He doesn't even know them.

It's a great way to keep poor believers paralyzed in a state of fear though.

There are other verses Lee used to justify his teachings; I don't have time to go digging but if anyone knows them and can post them here, we can look into them too.

Trapped

P.S. Bible-believer included the verses in 1 John 5:

1 John 5:4-5
for everyone born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith. Who is it that overcomes the world? Only the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God.

From the little time I've spent looking into what the Bible says about overcomers/overcoming, this seems to be what we should hang our hat on. Overcomers are simply genuine believers, born of God. Any overcoming we do is because of what Jesus did. He's overcome the world, and we overcome the accuser because of the blood of the Lamb (Rev. 12:11).

What helps me the most for studies like these is to find the root word in Greek, and then pull up all the verses that have any form of that word.....then plod through those verses and see what they all say. Here is the full list of verses in the Bible that have the forms of the word "nikao" (overcome). They are on the right side of the page listed under "Englishman's Concordance":

https://biblehub.com/greek/3528.htm

[Raptor]

The ones in Matthew 7, the servants in 24 and the 10 virgins in 25 are all believers.

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by Raptor

The ones in Matthew 7, the servants in 24 and the 10 virgins in 25 are all believers.

Can you explain how you arrived at that conclusion?

Trapped

[aron]

Originally Posted by Bible-believer

I was reading this article,
<The PAPAL ENCYCLICALS IN THEIR HISTORICAL CONTEXT >
“Catholicism insists that it teaches the preaching of Christ, and only that. The Catholic believes that his beliefs are identical with those of the Apostolic Church without a jot or tittle changed.”

“Hence it is that the Catholic does not say in the first instance ‘What does the Book say?’ Rather he asks, ‘What does the teaching church say?’”

“This fundamental vision of the church causes the Catholic to look to the episcopate for doctrine because the Roman Catholic bishops are the authentic exponents of God’s message. This is no idolatry of the bishops or their primate, the Bishop of Rome, but it is only a consequence of the Catholic theory of the church.”

Do those doctrinal statements sound familiar to us?

"Roman Catholic bishops are the authentic exponents of God's message." That quote could be placed onto the Lord's Recovery, only substituting the words "blended brothers" for "Roman Catholic bishops". The Blendeds are the unquestioned authorities on matters of doctrine, teaching, interpretation, and practice. They were the ones who sat at the feet (literally) of the supposed Minister of the Age, who was himself the sole authentic exponent of God's message. Both Witness Lee and his predecessor Watchman Nee made this principle utterly clear. They were the EF Hutton of religion: when they spoke, everyone else had to be quiet, and listen. And they, in turn, had to listen to none but God.

Now, the New Testament authors and speakers made it very clear, also, that Jesus held this same role. He was the incarnated Word, and when he spoke, the Father spoke through him. He was the One whom Moses predicted: "A prophet will God raise up after me, you must hear him". The repeated word in the NT was that the prophetic word of Moses in Deuteronomy 18 was fulfilled in Jesus (Yeshua) the Galilean. Acts 3:22 and 7:37 make this quite explicit. See also Matt 21:11 - "The crowds replied, 'This is Jesus, the prophet from Nazareth in Galilee".

The excuse of the rejecting Jews was that they had Moses and the prophets. They didn't have to listen to some Johnny-come-lately Galilean and his motley crew. A bunch of fishermen! Unlettered, even! Tax collectors! Sinners!

Jesus' reply: "If you listened to Moses and the prophets you would hear me. They spoke of me".

My point in this is that Jesus is revealed as the authentic exponent of God's word, and not anyone else. Yes we have scripture but each one of us is responsible to parse it out, and find meaning. We have the collective, we have books and teachers and guides. But ultimately each one of us must take responsibility for what we think, and say, and do; otherwise we may end up in places like the Lord's Recovery. It was comforting for a while not to have to think. Just do what the brothers say. As Ray Graver told Bill Mallon, "Here, we do what we're told". But ultimately one found discomfort and disconnection because the brothers clearly were departing from the message of the NT. So following became a journey into the ditch.

Even Paul, the supposed "minister of the age" with the "up-to-date speaking" never held that claim, nor did any in the NT say this. Rather, he said that he had the ministry to the gentiles as Peter to the Jews. He never said that he superseded anyone else. That is self-serving from those whose goal is to fill their bellies and their family nests, to promote such ideas. The NT never supports this - rather it consistently promotes the opposite: everyone cooperated in the NT to find the message of Jesus together, and go forward together. Just as Jesus followed the Father's commands, everyone should try to follow Jesus' commands. Paul and Peter and John never commanded. As sheep, they followed the Lamb. Those who deign to command, other than the King Himself, are wolves. Don't follow them.

I would submit that to "overcome" follows asking questions, and taking the narrow path, where those questions begin to open doors in heaven. You will see a door open in heaven, and a voice says, "Go". And you go. This involves questioning the powers, the religious ones, political ones, social ones, economic ones. Questioning doesn't make you an overcomer, but it is the necessary first step in the journey. Don't be afraid to ask questions. God is not afraid of your questions, so don't be afraid of His answers. And He will answer you. Have faith.

[Raptor]

Originally Posted by Trapped

Can you explain how you arrived at that conclusion?

Trapped

Just open and read the Word of God, it´s obvious.

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by Raptor

Just open and read the Word of God, it´s obvious.

Raptor.

Obviously I opened and read the Word of God and came away with a different viewpoint. And I bothered to explain how I came to that viewpoint because I respect the members of this forum who read here. Do I just need to remind myself not to engage with you, because you repeatedly don't seem to want to engage when you post?

Trapped

[Raptor]

Originally Posted by Trapped

Raptor.

Obviously I opened and read the Word of God and came away with a different viewpoint. And I bothered to explain how I came to that viewpoint because I respect the members of this forum who read here. Do I just need to remind myself not to engage with you, because you repeatedly don't seem to want to engage when you post?

Trapped

I love you.

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by Raptor

I love you.

Thanks. Same to you. And if you ever have anything to say about your perspective that the ones in those passages are all believers, please do us the honor of explaining why you think so. I myself don't want to hold to an interpretation of any passage that can be shown to be the wrong interpretation. I'm all ears to hear the reasons behind a differing interpretation if you want to share them.

Trapped

[GraceAlone]

A person I know from my time in the LR posted this very recently on social media. It’s a quote from the HWMR.

“The three conditions by which God selects the overcomers are: (1) being absolute for God’s glory, (2) being afraid of nothing, and (3) allowing the cross to deal with the self.”

Consonant with the discussion here, I’m dying to know the scriptural basis for:
1. The premise of the statement. How do we know that “God selects Overcomers”?
2. The rest of the statement. How do we know these (and these alone) are the criteria? (And the “being afraid of nothing” sure seems ironic!)

I don’t know what to make anymore of the entire Overcomer theology, but I do know the fruit of it. I spent most of my life with a sense of dread hanging over me that I was probably not an Overcomer (despite trying to do all the things) and that the Lord was constantly disappointed in me for failing to reach this unknown and rather elitist Overcomer standard. As I detox, I’m coming to see that this robs many many saints of their joy and freedom in Christ and what He has already done for us out of His great love and grace.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by GraceAlone

A person I know from my time in the LR posted this very recently on social media. It’s a quote from the HWMR.

“The three conditions by which God selects the overcomers are: (1) being absolute for God’s glory, (2) being afraid of nothing, and (3) allowing the cross to deal with the self.”

Consonant with the discussion here, I’m dying to know the scriptural basis for:
1. The premise of the statement. How do we know that “God selects Overcomers”?
2. The rest of the statement. How do we know these (and these alone) are the criteria? (And the “being afraid of nothing” sure seems ironic!)

I don’t know what to make anymore of the entire Overcomer theology, but I do know the fruit of it. I spent most of my life with a sense of dread hanging over me that I was probably not an Overcomer (despite trying to do all the things) and that the Lord was constantly disappointed in me for failing to reach this unknown and rather elitist Overcomer standard. As I detox, I’m coming to see that this robs many many saints of their joy and freedom in Christ and what He has already done for us out of His great love and grace.

What does it mean to be “absolute for God’s glory?” Any one find a verse for that?

What does it mean to be “afraid of nothing?” Even Jesus sweated drops of blood in Gethsemane. He feared what He knew was coming. The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom.

But I do agree with the Blemdeds here, we should not fear them when we leave them or expose their works of darkness.

These leading Blendeds are on record saying that they fear facing Witness Lee in the future. Apparently more than they fear the Lord.

[aron]

Originally Posted by GraceAlone

“The three conditions by which God selects the overcomers are: (1) being absolute for God’s glory, (2) being afraid of nothing, and (3) allowing the cross to deal with the self.”

How arbitrary this is. Why not add a fourth condition: don't post on social media! Or a fifth: No Cheerios! Cheerios are bad!

But seriously, how about "love your neighbor?" The whole thing is just so brazenly made-up that it's mind boggling.

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by GraceAlone

A person I know from my time in the LR posted this very recently on social media. It’s a quote from the HWMR.

“The three conditions by which God selects the overcomers are: (1) being absolute for God’s glory, (2) being afraid of nothing, and (3) allowing the cross to deal with the self.”

Consonant with the discussion here, I’m dying to know the scriptural basis for:
1. The premise of the statement. How do we know that “God selects Overcomers”?
2. The rest of the statement. How do we know these (and these alone) are the criteria? (And the “being afraid of nothing” sure seems ironic!)

I don’t know what to make anymore of the entire Overcomer theology, but I do know the fruit of it. I spent most of my life with a sense of dread hanging over me that I was probably not an Overcomer (despite trying to do all the things) and that the Lord was constantly disappointed in me for failing to reach this unknown and rather elitist Overcomer standard. As I detox, I’m coming to see that this robs many many saints of their joy and freedom in Christ and what He has already done for us out of His great love and grace.

Totally agree on the "and what is the scriptural basis for those three requirements, please?" statement!

I remember as a young person sitting in LSM conferences where the speaking brother would say things like "If you think you are an overcomer, you probably aren't, and if you think you aren't, you probably are!" Or "Don't think about whether you are an overcomer, just focus on the Lord!"

I sat there thinking, "uh, talk about a mind game! Basically you have to ignore any thought of being an overcomer, while simultaneously having the awareness in the back of your head that after you get saved it's essentially the most important thing in front of you!" The way the LC taught it was ripe for a mental breakdown.

I thought for something that threatening and important, God should have created some kind of gauge embedded in our arms where it registered the current level of "oil" in us. Because otherwise we are totally flying blind!

Trapped

[HERn]

Originally Posted by Trapped

Totally agree on the "and what is the scriptural basis for those three requirements, please?" statement!

I remember as a young person sitting in LSM conferences where the speaking brother would say things like "If you think you are an overcomer, you probably aren't, and if you think you aren't, you probably are!" Or "Don't think about whether you are an overcomer, just focus on the Lord!"

I sat there thinking, "uh, talk about a mind game! Basically you have to ignore any thought of being an overcomer, while simultaneously having the awareness in the back of your head that after you get saved it's essentially the most important thing in front of you!" The way the LC taught it was ripe for a mental breakdown.

I thought for something that threatening and important, God should have created some kind of gauge embedded in our arms where it registered the current level of "oil" in us. Because otherwise we are totally flying blind!

Trapped

I think Drake should fly in and help us out here.

[Zezima]

Originally Posted by GraceAlone

I don’t know what to make anymore of the entire Overcomer theology, but I do know the fruit of it. I spent most of my life with a sense of dread hanging over me that I was probably not an Overcomer (despite trying to do all the things) and that the Lord was constantly disappointed in me for failing to reach this unknown and rather elitist Overcomer standard. As I detox, I’m coming to see that this robs many many saints of their joy and freedom in Christ and what He has already done for us out of His great love and grace.

Really resonated with this, it robbed me and I see it rob friends and family in the LR today. I personally always felt afraid and it forced me to “try” to check boxes. Well said GraceAlone, thank you.

[Zezima]

Could perhaps the fruit we knew of this doctrine, simply be a misunderstanding of it on our end?

[GraceAlone]

Originally Posted by Zezima

Could perhaps the fruit we knew of this doctrine, simply be a misunderstanding of it on our end?

I think it’s always possible that misunderstanding is at least partially to blame. But as Trapped so eloquently put it, and here I paraphrase less wittily, when the teaching is so confusing, inconsistent and logically flawed, is a clear understanding even possible?

Among the competing statements one has to hold in one’s mind:
- Overcomers are just normal Christians
BUT
- Overcomers are the high peak of Zion, and God isn’t satisfied with the church; He wants Overcomers.

- Overcomers are afraid of nothing
BUT
- If you leave the Recovery, you won’t be an Overcomer (scary, right?)

Uh … which is it??

The solution for me right now is just to come back to the Word and look at what is clearly and directly prescribed and let the beauty of the gospel overwhelm my fears about whether I’m enough (I’m not. He is though!).

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by GraceAlone

I don’t know what to make anymore of the entire Overcomer theology ...

Someone once commented that the "unsearchable riches" of Christ had become the "unreachable searches."

"Overcomer" theology is merely used by the Blendeds as a "carrot and stick" to keep their minions subservient to LSM mandates. Few actual carrots, just mostly big sticks.

[Zezima]

Originally Posted by Trapped

Totally agree on the "and what is the scriptural basis for those three requirements, please?" statement!

I remember as a young person sitting in LSM conferences where the speaking brother would say things like "If you think you are an overcomer, you probably aren't, and if you think you aren't, you probably are!" Or "Don't think about whether you are an overcomer, just focus on the Lord!"

I sat there thinking, "uh, talk about a mind game! Basically you have to ignore any thought of being an overcomer, while simultaneously having the awareness in the back of your head that after you get saved it's essentially the most important thing in front of you!" The way the LC taught it was ripe for a mental breakdown.

I thought for something that threatening and important, God should have created some kind of gauge embedded in our arms where it registered the current level of "oil" in us. Because otherwise we are totally flying blind!

Trapped

It causes anxiety in a lot of saints. I’ve seen saints completely abandon the faith because they committed certain sins and thus according to the LR are disqualified for the banquet feast. I’ve seen saints who are in crippling fear that they won’t make it, and their entire Christian pursuit is motivated by being an overcomer.

For me personally, I felt that the only reason I pursued God was so that I could be an overcomer. Using God in order to attain something, how sad now. I didn’t read my Bible to be washed, I read it to get more spirit to make sure I wasn’t stuck in the “outer darkness”. I made this thread tho, to make sure that my displeasure of that doctrine wasn’t based on my personal view, but that it is in fact a false doctrine. I believe it is, I think it’s very damaging. Like GraceAlone said, it robs people. Oh how robbed I was for years and years.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Zezima

It causes anxiety in a lot of saints. I’ve seen saints completely abandon the faith because they committed certain sins and thus according to the LR are disqualified for the banquet feast. I’ve seen saints who are in crippling fear that they won’t make it, and their entire Christian pursuit is motivated by being an overcomer.

For me personally, I felt that the only reason I pursued God was so that I could be an overcomer. Using God in order to attain something, how sad now. I didn’t read my Bible to be washed, I read it to get more spirit to make sure I wasn’t stuck in the “outer darkness”. I made this thread tho, to make sure that my displeasure of that doctrine wasn’t based on my personal view, but that it is in fact a false doctrine. I believe it is, I think it’s very damaging. Like GraceAlone said, it robs people. Oh how robbed I was for years and years.

As I've shared on here a number of times, when I was in the Recovery, I heard that God had a purpose and would get it no matter what. And while there is truth to that, it was conveyed as God was like a steamroller, who would flatten you if you got in His way. Many instances of saints leaving the Recovery were conveyed, where God supposedly judged them for that. A sense of fear prevailed because of teachings like this, and also teachings that believers might be severely punished for a thousand years, if we weren't "overcomers" according to the standard way that was being taught.

When I left the Recovery, I really feared that God was out to get me, and I was actually sorta looking over my shoulder all the time . . . One day I realized what nonsense that was - I was under my car doing some maintenance and a thought came to me, "God can flick that jack stand away and you'll be instantly crushed." I then got light that this was nothing but the Accuser & Slanderer, and this silly idea was exposed.

But it took several years more for the Lord to reveal to me that His prime motivation and actions toward us is actually His great love for us. When I began to see that His purpose was all about love, then this began a journey away from the idea that He was some kind of "Steamroller God" Who crushed people that got in His way - again, light came and this idea was exposed too. At that point scripture began to open to me in a much clearer way than ever before. In the Recovery, I thought the foundation to it all was purpose, but then He showed me that the real foundation (of even His purpose) is love.

Concerning being an "overcomer," in Greek, the phrase "judgement seat" is "bema." The bema was the place the officials/judges sat in the Olympic games, where they could judge and communicate who won an event or a race, who should be disqualified, etc. So it was their job to give recognition and present awards to the contestants who deserved it. If someone lost, that contestant didn't get the prize, but they also weren't punished by the judges. Their job was to award prizes for things "well done." In this light, I've come to believe that at the Bema seat of Christ, it will be the same way - rewards or loss of reward . . . not punishment. (I'll let others give, what they see as, the balancing word to this)

Article Regarding the Bema Seat

"So we aspire to please Him, whether we are here in this body or away from it. For we must all appear before the [bema] seat of Christ, that each one may receive his due for the things done in the body, whether good or bad . . ." 2 Cor. 5:-9-10

Nell, the Lord spoke in Revelation, "To he who overcomes...". Therefore one can be an overcomer. This is an experience, not merely a teaching or doctrine. This should be easy to understand, dont you think?

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Nell, the Lord spoke in Revelation, "To he who overcomes...". Therefore one can be an overcomer. This is an experience, not merely a teaching or doctrine. This should be easy to understand, dont you think?

I did not say one could not be an overcomer. Please quote my remarks accurately and I believe you will understand.

However, my point was, I do not understand these Revelation verses in the context of Lee's teaching on overcomers. There is a difference, don't you think?

So. To answer your question...it should be easy to understand, but the verses seem to have nothing to do with Lee's threats of not being an overcomer if you don't remain in the Local Church and do as you are told.

If you wish to continue this discussion, please register as a forum member.

Nell

[Zezima]

Originally Posted by Nell

The word “overcomer” I cannot find in the Bible. The word “overcome”, or overcometh, in context of your question appears 6 times:

Revelation 2:7
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

Revelation 2:11
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

Revelation 2:17
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.

Revelation 2:26
And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

Revelation 3:5
He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

Revelation 3:12
Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

These verses seem neither to apply to a group of believers, nor something a group would do. It doesn’t seem like “overcometh” is specifically defined, but is an “if/then” statement. If you overcome, then I will…” Maybe, ”if you do what I have given you to do, then I will reward you as follows: …”

I have never understood the Lee teaching in the context of these verses.

Nell

These verses are used a lot in the LR to justify the teaching. What do you think these verses mean? If they don’t back up the LR’s teaching?

Revelation was written to a specific group at a specific time. It cannot mean for us what it did not mean for them. It was written to a group of Christians under immense persecution.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Nell, the Lord spoke in Revelation, "To he who overcomes...". Therefore one can be an overcomer. This is an experience, not merely a teaching or doctrine. This should be easy to understand, dont you think?

The Bible also says that "he who endures to the end shall be saved."

Do we now also have a class of people who are called "enduromers?"

This should be easy to understand, don't you think?

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Ohio

The Bible also says that "he who endures to the end shall be saved."

Do we now also have a class of people who are called "enduromers?"

This should be easy to understand, don't you think?

Like so many things in the Bible, I think our minds are prone to overly complicate things. We can study and pray about something, but only He can shine light and make it all clear and simple. So if we do study and pray about it, and it's still not clear, what should we do? (We can certainly fellowship and light may come that way too.)

For me, when something like this remains a little unclear, I find it better to set it aside with a prayer, "Lord, when I'm ready, I trust you will shine light and show me what it really means." That doesn't mean I don't look into the matter any more or don't discuss it, but it frees me from a certainly level of getting all spun-up about the topic. Oftentimes it really is best to "let go and let God."

Nonetheless, do others on here equate being an overcomer with receiving a prize at the bema like I do?

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by Zezima

These verses are used a lot in the LR to justify the teaching. What do you think these verses mean? If they don’t back up the LR’s teaching?

Revelation 2:7
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

Revelation 2:11
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

Revelation 2:17
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.

Revelation 2:26
And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

Revelation 3:5
He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

Revelation 3:12
Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

Revelation was written to a specific group at a specific time. It cannot mean for us what it did not mean for them. It was written to a group of Christians under immense persecution.

Overcome:
-eat of the tree of life
-not be hurt of the second death
-eat of hidden manna and have new name
-power over nations
-name remains in book of life, name confessed
-write upon him name of God/city/His new name

Presumably, he who does NOT overcome does not get those results, in other words:
-does not eat of the tree of life
-will be hurt of the second death
-will not eat of hidden manna or have a new name
-no power over nations
-name blotted out of the book of life, name not confessed
-name of God/city/His new name not written upon him

I can't speak for all of these repercussions, but a few stick out.

1. Eating or not eating of the tree of life is the thing that makes you live forever or makes you die. It's what Adam and Eve lost access to in the garden of Eden, thus making them die. If you have access to the tree of life again, you will live forever.

2. Being hurt of the second death? My understanding is that this pertains to the soul. The first death is our body....the second would be our soul. Those who are saved do not have to fear the perishing of our soul. Non-overcomers are hurt of the second death which means they are not believers.

3. Name remains in the book of life? Do we think there are genuine believers who's names are removed from the book of life?

"He who overcomes" in these verses gets what we understand believers to get.

As far as my reading of these verses, "he who overcomes" here matches what is mentioned in 1 John:

1 John 5:4-5
for everyone born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith. Who is it that overcomes the world? Only the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God.

Overcomers are simply genuine believers. There is no "soulish believer" or "spiritual believer" like Nee/Lee taught. There are false and genuine. If you are a believer, born of God, it seems like the Bible says you will overcome.

Trapped

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Trapped

Overcomers are simply genuine believers. There is no "soulish believer" or "spiritual believer" like Nee/Lee taught. There are false and genuine. If you are a believer, born of God, it seems like the Bible says you will overcome.

What about Paul saying he could be disqualified in the race? (1 Cor 9:27) That doesn't mean he became un-born, but rather it's saying something is lost if we don't run well, right?

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

What about Paul saying he could be disqualified in the race? (1 Cor 9:27) That doesn't mean he became un-born, but rather it's saying something is lost if we don't run well, right?

1 Corinthians 9:12-19, 24-27

12 If others have this right of support from you, shouldn’t we have it all the more?But we did not use this right. On the contrary, we put up with anything rather than hinder the gospel of Christ.
13 Don’t you know that those who serve in the temple get their food from the temple, and that those who serve at the altar share in what is offered on the altar?
14 In the same way, the Lord has commanded that those who preach the gospel should receive their living from the gospel.
15 But I have not used any of these rights. And I am not writing this in the hope that you will do such things for me, for I would rather die than allow anyone to deprive me of this boast.
16 For when I preach the gospel, I cannot boast, since I am compelled to preach. Woe to me if I do not preach the gospel!
17 If I preach voluntarily, I have a reward; if not voluntarily, I am simply discharging the trust committed to me.
18 What then is my reward? Just this: that in preaching the gospel I may offer it free of charge, and so not make full use of my rights as a preacher of the gospel.
19 Though I am free and belong to no one, I have made myself a slave to everyone, to win as many as possible.

24 Do you not know that in a race all the runners run, but only one gets the prize? Run in such a way as to get the prize.
25 Everyone who competes in the games goes into strict training. They do it to get a crown that will not last, but we do it to get a crown that will last forever.
26 Therefore I do not run like someone running aimlessly; I do not fight like a boxer beating the air.
27 No, I strike a blow to my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize.

What prize is he talking about? Who is the one person of millions and millions of believers who gets the prize?

I don't know the answer! But whatever the answers are will help determine whether or not this passage applies to overcomers, etc.

These verses are in the section of Paul going in-depth about how he could rightfully exercise his rights as a preacher of the gospel and make a living off of preaching the gospel, but he's going above and beyond by buffeting his body in making a living on the side. He says his reward is preaching the gospel free of charge and not making full use of his rights as a preacher. I'm not entirely sure Paul is talking about overcoming, or if he's just winding himself up (in a good way) and bringing in a metaphor to show how much he is pouring himself out doing what he does.

Trapped

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

What about Paul saying he could be disqualified in the race? (1 Cor 9:27) That doesn't mean he became un-born, but rather it's saying something is lost if we don't run well, right?

In I Cor 9.24 it says that only "one receives the prize." Yet Paul exhorts us all to "run, that we may lay hold." This verse was always troublesome. I'm not picking sides here, rather mentioning how difficult it is to know definitively.

Originally Posted by Trapped

Overcomers are simply genuine believers. There is no "soulish believer" or "spiritual believer" like Nee/Lee taught. There are false and genuine. If you are a believer, born of God, it seems like the Bible says you will overcome.

Apostle Paul taught there were spiritual, soulish, and fleshly believers. Yes, our faith and our birth of God is what can overcome all things. See, for example, Hebrews 11 for a few stories of old.

Yet, what do we do with those, who were once genuinely born of God, and then never believed again. I'm sure we all have met some like this, who lived their whole life like an unbeliever. How can they receive the same outcome as those faithful martyrs.

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by Ohio

In I Cor 9.24 it says that only "one receives the prize." Yet Paul exhorts us all to "run, that we may lay hold." This verse was always troublesome. I'm not picking sides here, rather mentioning how difficult it is to know definitively.

I'm with you on the difficult to know!

Originally Posted by Ohio

Apostle Paul taught there were spiritual, soulish, and fleshly believers. Yes, our faith and our birth of God is what can overcome all things. See, for example, Hebrews 11 for a few stories of old.

Yet, what do we do with those, who were once genuinely born of God, and then never believed again. I'm sure we all have met some like this, who lived their whole life like an unbeliever. How can they receive the same outcome as those faithful martyrs.

Some would call that a false conversion. I know I've said in a few places there are only true believers and false. I'm happy to be wrong. It just seems like the believer who were once genuinely born of God and then never believed and who lived a carnal life aren't genuine believers. There's no evidence of it in their lives.

This is like the parables of the seeds sown in the soil in Matthew 13 - only one of the four actually "understands" the word they hear and there is fruit. The others (on the path, rocky ground, in the thorns) don't understand it, i.e. what seems to be a false conversion.

Just discussing. I don't think the way Nee/Lee taught soulish believers was true. Maybe soulish believers more biblically taught is true.

Trapped

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Trapped

I'm with you on the difficult to know!

Yes, I agree. However, my thought is that this is a metaphor saying to be diligent to run in such a way as to gain a prize . . . not that there is literally just one who will win "THE prize." (like the old Highlander TV series)

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Yes, I agree. However, my thought is that this is a metaphor saying to be diligent to run in such a way as to gain a prize . . . not that there is literally just one who will win "THE prize." (like the old Highlander TV series)

I just read something very helpful (to me anyways) from Ray Comfort in his daily readings from Proverbs dated October 2:

Hyperbole is commonly used in scripture. It employs the politically incorrect and powerful word "hate" for the sake of emphasis. The Bible also says you should so love God, that all of your other affections - your love for your mother, father, brother, sister, wife, husband, and children - should seem like hatred compared to the love you have for the God who gave them to you. Hyperbole has the effect of shocking us into reality.

Extremisms like this seem so out of character for the Bible, until we realize it is exaggeration for a purpose. Perhaps saying "only one wins the prize" is hyperbole too.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Trapped

Some would call that a false conversion. I know I've said in a few places there are only true believers and false.

Which opens up a whole 'nuther topic. Do some lose their salvation, and what justifies a legitimate born again experience? Also, the Bible says those born of God cannot sin, so is that "thing" I just did really a sin, and was I never really saved?

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Which opens up a whole 'nuther topic. Do some lose their salvation, and what justifies a legitimate born again experience? Also, the Bible says those born of God cannot sin, so is that "thing" I just did really a sin, and was I never really saved?

I know this was directed toward Trapped, but if I may (and we might get dinged here for getting too far off subject) . . . regarding loosing ones salvation, I wonder - How does someone become un-born?

(and it is true, that the part of us that is born of Him above does not sin)

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Which opens up a whole 'nuther topic. Do some lose their salvation, and what justifies a legitimate born again experience? Also, the Bible says those born of God cannot sin, so is that "thing" I just did really a sin, and was I never really saved?

Ray Comfort has a very detailed stance on this topic, or at least the topic of false conversions. Essentially someone needs to hear the real gospel first. Search something like "Hell's Best Kept Secret Ray Comfort". It's interesting, and I think worth the read. It informs his whole gospel preaching method.

This topic (true/false believers) just happened to pop up in a video I was watching tonight. The speaker made the point about how the branches are described in John 15 when Jesus speaks of the branches (us) being in the vine (Him):

John 15:1-2
1 “I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener.
2 He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful.

Notice that even the branches that the Father cuts off because they are unfruitful are still described as being "in" the vine, Jesus. Both the branches that remain and those that are cut off started out "in the vine".

I can see this as being justification for genuine believers (who were "in the vine") who fell away. That seems like a reasonable interpretation. What their fate is, though, I genuinely don't know.

Or, we could pair it up with the other verses in the Bible that talk about the fruit that should be evident in the life of someone who is genuinely saved, and if there is no fruit, then they are not part of the vine anymore. Or maybe pair it up with the verses of those who preached in His name and drove out demons and did miracles and called "Lord, Lord", and yet.....He never knew them. I mean, if the Father cuts you off from the vine Jesus (who is the way to the Father) is that someone who has eternal life? I don't think so.

So I can see both possibilities from these verses.

This kind of verges more into the topic of OSAS (once saved always saved) rather than overcomers, so I don't want to diverge if undesired.

Trapped

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Trapped

This kind of verges more into the topic of OSAS (once saved always saved) rather than overcomers, so I don't want to diverge if undesired.

Good point. Let's come back to the topic at hand.

Like any aberrant Bible teaching, there is always a certain amount of scripture to support it. WL made "overcomers" an elite class of believers, where the Bible does not. That's why I facetiously coined the word "enduromers" for those who endure. WL's justification was modeled after Gideon's army and David's mighty men, the "Green Beret" of the Recovery.

That set us up to be manipulated by him. Being a ministry "overcomer" was never related to actual struggles in trials, but absolute allegiance to his ministry. Being "one with the ministry" and "being absolute for WL's burden" goes back to my earliest days in the mid 70's. I would hear whispers about Texas being more "one" with WL than we were. Regional rivalries erupted.

So this "overcomer" teaching turned the most zealous of the bro/sis's into ardent man-pleasers, willing to do all things to please the MOTA. It sowed endless suspicions among the brothers about who is and who is not adequately "one with the ministry." Survival thus required a "good show" in front of others, and rivalries to suck up to WL.

I remember my first conference. Max was in town. So charismatic. TC took me up to introduce me to him after the meeting. He called me a "young overcomer." My head swelled. I completely forgot about the cigarettes in my pocket and bag of dope in my sock. Never felt so special in my whole life.

[Raptor]

Originally Posted by Trapped

I personally think the Bible shows "real believer", "false believer (or believer in name only)", and everyone else. And I think that distinction comes into play in this parable. First of all, we can back up to the parable before this one, in Matthew 24:45-51. It's about the faithful and wise servant put in charge of his master's possessions, and he is contrasted with what is called a "wicked servant" who beats his fellow servants and gets drunk, etc. The wicked servant thinks the master will be gone a long time and so he lives like it. It seems to me the parable of the 10 virgins is saying something similar.

they are all servants = they are all believers
they are all virgins = they are all believers

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Raptor

they are all servants = they are all believers
they are all virgins = they are all believers

I agree. The virgins were "undefiled" and had lamps, and were going to meet the bridegroom (although some have interpreted this wedding feast scenario as pertaining to the Jews . . .). Servants were all entrusted with something by their master and given direction from him, then the master returned to them to see how well they carried out his instructions --> this is not an interaction with unregenerated people.

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by Raptor

they are all servants = they are all believers
they are all virgins = they are all believers

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

I agree. The virgins were "undefiled" and had lamps, and were going to meet the bridegroom (although some have interpreted this wedding feast scenario as pertaining to the Jews . . .). Servants were all entrusted with something by their master and given direction from him, then the master returned to them to see how well they carried out his instructions --> this is not an interaction with unregenerated people.

Matthew 24 - But he is literally called a "wicked" servant. Look at his behavior. This is a servant in name but not in action/behavior. This is a false believer, false apostle, etc. Entrusted with care of the flock but abuses his power - beats those below him. That's what the apostle Paul describes in Corinthians as false apostles ("super apostles") - they slap in the face those who are under their care.

Matthew 25 - thanks for giving actual reasoning on this one! I can see both sides on this parable. But man.....the Lord saying "I don't know you", and the next parable where the Lord describes the money-keeping servant as "worthless".....is this how believers are referred to in the Bible?

Trapped

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Trapped

Matthew 24 - But he is literally called a "wicked" servant. Look at his behavior. This is a servant in name but not in action/behavior. This is a false believer, false apostle, etc. Entrusted with care of the flock but abuses his power - beats those below him. That's what the apostle Paul describes in Corinthians as false apostles ("super apostles") - they slap in the face those who are under their care.

Matthew 25 - thanks for giving actual reasoning on this one! I can see both sides on this parable. But man.....the Lord saying "I don't know you", and the next parable where the Lord describes the money-keeping servant as "worthless".....is this how believers are referred to in the Bible?

Trapped

I was thinking about this recently: a regenerated believer is capable of everything a non-regenerated person is. That's because they both share the same flesh, which scripture is clear about it containing no good thing (i.e., the "fruits of the flesh are . . ."). However, the regenerated person is also capable of things the non-regenerated one isn't: real love, joy, peace and experiencing the inner Anointing. The regenerated one can chose to walk according to spirit or not, but the unregenerated one does not have that choice. So yes, a true believer (regenerated partaker of the divine nature) can choose to do bad things like beat other believers, etc.

[Trapped]

While I see that there seem to be differing possible interpretations of the parables in question, Jesus usually explains His parables in some way.

Do we consider Matthew 25:31-46 to be the explanation of the parables in Matthew 24:45-51 (wicked servant beating fellow servants), Matthew 25:1-13 (virgins with oil) and Matthew 25:14-30 (servants and bags of gold)?

I do consider Matthew 25:31-46 to be the explanation of those parables. Do other participants in this thread agree with that statement or no?

If you agree, I think Matthew 25:31-46 makes it perfectly clear that the wicked servants and virgins without oil are unbelievers. Look at what Jesus says about them:

Matthew 25:41, 46
41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

I just don't see how that can reasonably be believers.

Trapped

P.S. I could be wrong. Maybe the explanation in 31-46 is something different and is not the explanation. In that case - more discussion is needed!

[UntoHim]

"Some people are so heavenly minded that they are of no earthly good"
Oliver Wendell Holmes.

In my many years of experience and observation, I find it's more than enough for us Christians who live in the cushy, comfortable Western world to just overcome taking for granted all the privileges and blessings that surround us. If we can just overcome higher gas prices and FaceBook being down for a few hours, maybe, just maybe we can start to work on the real overcoming. You know...where you have to worry about where your next meal is coming from, or whether or not the government is going to arrest you for having a Bible, or get beaten half to death for holding a Christian meeting in your living room.

Speaking for myself, I would like to overcome the temptation to go a day without reading a few verses. I would like to overcome all the garbage that is splashed before my eyes on the very computer screen that I am typing these words on. I would like to overcome the ease and comfort of a prayerless life in which I don't worry about people who are trapped within a system of error that teaches them false notions about what it is to be an overcomer. May God have mercy.
-

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

"Some people are so heavenly minded that they are of no earthly good"
Oliver Wendell Holmes.

In my many years of experience and observation, I find it's more than enough for us Christians who live in the cushy, comfortable Western world to just overcome taking for granted all the privileges and blessings that surround us. If we can just overcome higher gas prices and FaceBook being down for a few hours, maybe, just maybe we can start to work on the real overcoming. You know...where you have to worry about where your next meal is coming from, or whether or not the government is going to arrest you for having a Bible, or get beaten half to death for holding a Christian meeting in your living room.

Speaking for myself, I would like to overcome the temptation to go a day without reading a few verses. I would like to overcome all the garbage that is splashed before my eyes on the very computer screen that I am typing these words on. I would like to overcome the ease and comfort of a prayerless life in which I don't worry about people who are trapped within a system of error that teaches them false notions about what it is to be an overcomer. May God have mercy.
-

So very true! Where I live, Scottsdale, we have things pretty good it seems and while I take many things for granted a good deal of the time, I am thankful for what we've been given - it is simply where He has placed us. Some time ago, a brother related something that came from a brother who I believe lived in Africa. He evidently said that while they have a multitude of hardships in their country and even a degree of persecution, he was blessed by his circumstances in that they caused him to regularly cry out to the Lord. He said he considered what we have in America as possibly the bigger test and temptation, in that we could more easily be lulled into total complacency.

This also reminds me of something another brother said (who the Lord recently took from this life) . . . he said he told the Lord, "Lord, if I could I'd live without you, but thank You, You don't let me!" He was referring to the things the Lord is merciful to bring our way, to humble us and cause us to turn to Him.

When we talk of overcoming, I'm reminded of something the Lord showed me a couple years ago. In Matthew 5:23 the Lord tells the faithful servant, "you have been faithful in a FEW things, enter into the joy of your Lord." So brother, only the Lord knows those few things we are expected to be faithful in . . . in the things right where He has placed us!

[Raptor]

_______________________Wise Virgin___Foolish Virgin______Unbeliever
virgin______________________x_____________x_______ ____________0
have lamps with oil___________x_____________x____________________0
knows about Bridegroom_______x_____________x__________________ _0
desires to meet Bridegroom_____x_____________x___________________0
can take extra oil_____________x_____________x___________________ 0
actually took extra oil__________x_____________0___________________0
hear cry to meet Bridgroom_____x_____________x___________________0
ability to buy oil______________x_____________x__________________ _0
those who were ready_________x_____________0___________________0
known by the Lord____________x_____________0___________________ 0
command to keep watch_______x_____________x___________________0

It is clear that all the 10 virgins are believers. The difference between wise and foolish is not in whether they are a virigin (believer) or not (unbeliever). The issue is whether they are foolish or not. The foolish fulfill all the points indicating they are believers except not taking extra oil, are not ready, and therefore are not recognized by the Lord. In addition, nowhwere in the Bible are unbelievers likened to virgins.

The foolish virgins cannot be false believers. The word does not say that. And anytime the word talks about a false believer it tells you he is false or describes clearly how he is false; it does not leave it up to you to decide or figure it out: for example, Judas, "and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed Him." (Mark 3.19); the "false prophet" in Revelation; what the Antichrist does, the great harlot.

That the Lord does "not know" the foolish virgins does not mean they are unbelievers. God knows all unbelievers: 1) He is omnisicient, so He knows them too. 2.) He created each and every one of them. 3.) the Father, "from whom every family in heaven and on earth is named." Eph. 3:15.

He does not recognize, approve, appreciate the foolish vrigins. They are like an estranged son that neglected his father, left home and shows up years later to try to claim a part of the inheritance. So the father tells him, "no, I don´t even know you anymore."

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by Raptor

_______________________Wise Virgin___Foolish Virgin______Unbeliever
[chart]

It is clear that all the 10 virgins are believers. The difference between wise and foolish is not in whether they are a virigin (believer) or not (unbeliever). The issue is whether they are foolish or not. The foolish fulfill all the points indicating they are believers except not taking extra oil, are not ready, and therefore are not recognized by the Lord. In addition, nowhwere in the Bible are unbelievers likened to virgins.

The foolish virgins cannot be false believers. The word does not say that. And anytime the word talks about a false believer it tells you he is false or describes clearly how he is false; it does not leave it up to you to decide or figure it out: for example, Judas, "and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed Him." (Mark 3.19); the "false prophet" in Revelation; what the Antichrist does, the great harlot.

That the Lord does "not know" the foolish virgins does not mean they are unbelievers. God knows all unbelievers: 1) He is omnisicient, so He knows them too. 2.) He created each and every one of them. 3.) the Father, "from whom every family in heaven and on earth is named." Eph. 3:15.

He does not recognize, approve, appreciate the foolish vrigins. They are like an estranged son that neglected his father, left home and shows up years later to try to claim a part of the inheritance. So the father tells him, "no, I don´t even know you anymore."

Most of the time (except for one instance) in your post here you keep saying that I've said the virgins are believers and unbelievers. That's not what I've said. I said they are true believers and false believers. (false believer is different from an unbeliever) This would make them both "believers" in name, and even all of them could be present in the church. There are plenty of people who say they are Christian but think sin is no big deal, who were born into a Christian family and think that saves them, who walk around thinking they are ok with God because they don't know the gospel. They often in appearance seem to be a believer (tare who looks like wheat, mixed in with the wheat).

I agree that the Lords knows all unbelievers, indeed, all people. He's the one who created them. "Know" here doesn't mean simply "know you exist". He knows everyone who exist. It's that they are "known", acknowledged by Him, like in Revelation where He says He will acknowledge them before His Father. Otherwise, what we have are true believers who truly have the Holy Spirit, yet who are not known by the Lord. I just don't see how that's possible.

The word "false" would not necessarily be explicitly stated in a parable. That's the point of a parable....things aren't explicitly stated until Jesus explains them after.

I mentioned that it seems to me like these parables are then explained by Jesus at the end of Matthew 25. Look at how he describes their end in verses 31-46 ("eternal fire" and "eternal punishment"). It's not the end of any true believer.

I've already said that I can actually see how a reasonable person can conclude your and Sons to Glory's viewpoint. There surely is evidence for it! I've heard both interpretations out there. Not everyone agrees on these parables. I'm totally fine to disagree on this interpretation, and hold differing views!

Trapped

[Sons to Glory!]

Thanks, Trapped, for your candid observations! And thanks, Raptor, for that grid you shared! I've not had the term, "false believer" in my vocabulary. Maybe that's because I don't believe someone can be regenerated and born again from God . . . become a child of His . . . and then somehow become unborn. To me, this goes against nature and common sense. What God has done is permanent. But there is still accountability for things the child of God does while still in the flesh - rewards to be gained or lost, depending on how well the race was run. This is not a performance thing, but rather how well a child allowed this new life to grow in them and be manifested through them (their works). It's about what was done with this grace given them, how much they gave up their "right" to themselves, and how much they let God operate in and through them.

My view is that if a child of God holds closely this right to themselves (aka free will) and conducts their life as they see fit, holds on to worldly things and pursuits, etc., the life of Christ will be hindered in them. We can call these ones non-overcomers, worldly Christians, backsliders or false believers, however, if they have received the new life and birth, they don't become unborn.

Ultimately, it's like a brother I know that said this about the book of Revelation: "Don't get all caught up in the interpretations of the details - the main point is simply this, Be Ready!"

[Ohio]

I don't think Raptor or STG would equate the parable of the Virgins with the outcome of the Sheep and Goats here in Matt 25. So the outcome of the "goats" should not be equated with the outcome of the "foolish virgins." Mt 25.32 indicates that the "nations" will be brought before Him. These are not the children of God. These nations will be judged by whether they "fear God" and how they treat the Lord's brothers and sisters. The book of Revelations continually refers to "the nations" as a collective of non-Jews and non-Christians, and some of these will be outside of the New Jerusalem and not in the lake of fire. (Rev 21.24-22.2)

This opens up a subject which you may not be familiar with. It concerns the period of time during the restoration of the Temple worship in Jerusalem. The Gospel of grace by faith to become a child of God born of the Spirit began with the resurrection of Jesus Christ and effectively ends with the "fullness of the Gentiles / Nations," and the resumption of the sacrifices in Israel, the last 7 years of Daniel's prophecy. (Romans 11.25; Rev 14.6; Daniel 9)

[Trapped]

Ohio - Oh yeah, the nations, I think you're right. Ok so that latter part of Matthew isn't necessarily the explanation for those parables!

StG - false believer doesn't mean someone who was genuinely born again and then becomes unborn. I don't think that's possible either. It's someone who isn't really born again. They might be innocuous - hanging around Christian circles, calling themselves a Christian, but not really a believer. Or they might be dangerous - wolf in sheep's clothing that crept in and is terrorizing the flock. At least that has been my understanding of it for a while.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Trapped

StG - false believer doesn't mean someone who was genuinely born again and then becomes unborn. I don't think that's possible either. It's someone who isn't really born again. They might be innocuous - hanging around Christian circles, calling themselves a Christian, but not really a believer. Or they might be dangerous - wolf in sheep's clothing that crept in and is terrorizing the flock. At least that has been my understanding of it for a while.

Thanks for clarifying!

[Raptor]

Originally Posted by Trapped

I said they are true believers and false believers. (false believer is different from an unbeliever) This would make them both "believers" in name, and even all of them could be present in the church. There are plenty of people who say they are Christian but think sin is no big deal, who were born into a Christian family and think that saves them, who walk around thinking they are ok with God because they don't know the gospel. They often in appearance seem to be a believer (tare who looks like wheat, mixed in with the wheat).
Trapped

I´m having a hard time understanding your definition of "false believer." Let me use other terminology; from this point of view, there are only 2 kinds of people in the world: in the New Testament during the age of grace, we have 1.) those who have been regenerated, who have received the life of God, they are sons of God. And 2.) those who do not have the life of God, who are not regenerated, they are not born again.

So I see a "true believer" as a born again, regenerated son of God. A "false believer" is the same as an "unbeliever;" he is not born again: they could be bad people or good people, religious, gamblers, abusers, classical piano players, football stars, murderes, tares, presidents, scientists. It does not matter; they were never born again.

A tare does not have the life of the wheat; it might look and act the same, but in its essence, it does not have the life of wheat. That is the difference. So the foolish virgins cannot be tares, they are wheat. They have the life of God.

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by Raptor

I´m having a hard time understanding your definition of "false believer." Let me use other terminology; from this point of view, there are only 2 kinds of people in the world: in the New Testament during the age of grace, we have 1.) those who have been regenerated, who have received the life of God, they are sons of God. And 2.) those who do not have the life of God, who are not regenerated, they are not born again.

So I see a "true believer" as a born again, regenerated son of God. A "false believer" is the same as an "unbeliever;" he is not born again: they could be bad people or good people, religious, gamblers, abusers, classical piano players, football stars, murderes, tares, presidents, scientists. It does not matter; they were never born again.

A tare does not have the life of the wheat; it might look and act the same, but in its essence, it does not have the life of wheat. That is the difference. So the foolish virgins cannot be tares, they are wheat. They have the life of God.

I see your viewpoint of categorizing in these two ways. Ultimately, that is what happens - those who believe and have been regenerated, who are sons of God will be with Him for eternity, and those who don't, who have not been regenerated, who are not sons of God will not be with Him for eternity. Totally on the same page with you.

Where I am making a distinction, is that here on the earth some of those "unbelievers" are gamblers, abusers, piano players, footballers, etc, out in the world. They are out in the world and freely admit they don't believe in God, or want nothing to do with God. They don't claim to know Christ, they don't profess belief in Christ, etc.

However, some of those "unbelievers" are those same kinds of people, but mixed in among the believers in the church. They call themselves believers, they associate with and join in gatherings of churches. Some of them even lead congregations, or appear to. They claim to know Christ and profess belief in Him. They enjoy the benefits of, or take advantage of, the Christian community but without true love for Christ. The Bible speaks of these. This is what I mean when I say "false believer".

1 John 2:9
Anyone who claims to be in the light but hates a brother or sister is still in the darkness.

Titus 1:16
They claim to know God, but by their actions they deny him. They are detestable, disobedient and unfit for doing anything good.

Luke 6:46
“Why do you call me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do what I say?

Matthew 15:8
“’These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me.

Matthew 7:15
“Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves.

2 Corinthians 11:13
For such people are false apostles, deceitful workers, masquerading as apostles of Christ.

Jude 1:4
For certain individuals whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.

2 Peter 2:1
But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves.

Acts 20:29-30
I know that after I leave, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock. Even from your own number men will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away disciples after them.

This is why in Matthew 18, if a "brother" refuses to hear after three times of being shown his error, Jesus' instruction is to treat him like......a gentile or tax collector and put him out of the church. We treat them like unbelievers. We remove them from the church. They were in the church, but showed themselves (by their unrepentant and hardened heart even in the face of one person, numerous people, and then the entire church showing them their sin) to not really be part of the church. If in putting them out of the church they show godly sorrow and genuine repentance, they are welcomed back in because their actions and attitude show them to be genuinely saved. (e.g. see the immoral sinning believer in 1 and 2 Corinthians as an example).

Anyway, that's all I got on that topic.

Trapped

[Trapped]

I just realized I wrote something wrong in a previous post about the parable of the tares and wheat. I said the tares look like believers because they have the same appearance as wheat, but that they are not real believers. I forgot that Jesus explicitly says that the field is the world, not the church. If He had said the field is the church, then the wheat/tares would be true/false believers. But He said it's the world, not the church, so wheat/tares in that parable are just about believers/unbelievers. That may have contributed to the confusion about what I meant by a "false believer", and that's my fault. I apologize.....I often only have half a flickering mental lightbulb burning by the end of my days......

Trapped

[Bible-believer]

One characteristic of the LR is exclusivity.
This morning a brother talked about the "overcomer."
He quoted from the Morning Revival "When the testimony of the church in the Lord's recovery is matured, the Lord Jesus will return."
I said there were overcomers in other churches, too. And he said it would be rare and hard for they were not in the Oneness; they were divisions.
I asked further if they were in the "Body." He hesitated. Then he said, "let God judge it."
I asked further how could you be so sure the LR was the "oneness?" or you would say, "let God judge it."
I could continue asking questions like this, but I wouldn't. I realize it's useless discussing or arguing with saints who are so into LR. Not until when they wake up from that hobbyhorse.

[Zezima]

It would seem then, that the LR’s overcomer doctrine is one to throw out..

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Bible-believer

One characteristic of the LR is exclusivity.
This morning a brother talked about the "overcomer."
He quoted from the Morning Revival "When the testimony of the church in the Lord's recovery is matured, the Lord Jesus will return."
I said there were overcomers in other churches, too. And he said it would be rare and hard for they were not in the Oneness; they were divisions.
I asked further if they were in the "Body." He hesitated. Then he said, "let God judge it."
I asked further how could you be so sure the LR was the "oneness?" or you would say, "let God judge it."
I could continue asking questions like this, but I wouldn't. I realize it's useless discussing or arguing with saints who are so into LR. Not until when they wake up from that hobbyhorse.

Great questions though!

Nell

[Bible-believer]

LR's theology is very confusing. It takes some from here and there and combines them to be their own. Maybe because of so, there are so many confusions and conflicts in its theology. There are the shadows of Calvinism, Pentecostals, Keswick, and Arminian, etc.
The 10-virgins parable is a typical example.
"fill with the Holy Spirit"-Pentecostals,
"buy oil" with good deeds/serving the Lord,
"live a holy life"-Keswick/Arminian-or you will lose/run out of the“oil”.
LR knows the Holy Spirit is a free gift and you can't get it by "good deeds or money"(Acts 8:20), so LR dare not teach the 5 foolish virgins that will lose their salvation but they can't attend the "wedding".
But note the verses, 5 virgins ran out of their "oil" (a type of the Holy Spirit) because they "all slumbered and slept" (they are not "working" for the Lord). The Holy Spirit is a free gift in the Church Age and sealed the believer unto the day of redemption(Eph.4:30, compare it with Psa.51:11take not thy holy spirit from me.), yet here in the parable, they need to "buy" it. Things different are not equal. The virgins are believers, but not Church Age saints. The way of their salvation is different from the Church Age saint.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Trapped

This is what I mean when I say "false believer".

1 John 2:9
Anyone who claims to be in the light but hates a brother or sister is still in the darkness.

Titus 1:16
They claim to know God, but by their actions they deny him. They are detestable, disobedient and unfit for doing anything good.

Luke 6:46
“Why do you call me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do what I say?

Matthew 15:8
“’These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me.

These verses can pertain to genuine, regenerated believers. (I just picked these three out of the several you quoted, as perhaps easiest to make the point.) Let's take the first verse about hating a brother or sister. Is it impossible for a regenerated one to hate another regenerated one and to therefore walk in darkness? I would certainly think so! This is because regenerated ones still have the flesh, and the flesh is capable of the entire litany of nasty things scripture calls out as its characteristics. My flesh is capable of lying, cheating, stealing, drunkenness, carousing, adultery, hatred and even murder. How do I know this? I have done a number of those things after being solidly regenerated! Was I walking in darkness as I did those things? You bet, but I returned to the light. However, at no time did I become unborn of God . . . though I was acting like the so-called prodigal son.

Does that make sense?

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

These verses can pertain to genuine, regenerated believers. (I just picked these three out of the several you quoted, as perhaps easiest to make the point.) Let's take the first verse about hating a brother or sister. Is it impossible for a regenerated one to hate another regenerated one and to therefore walk in darkness? I would certainly think so! This is because regenerated ones still have the flesh, and the flesh is capable of the entire litany of nasty things scripture calls out as its characteristics. My flesh is capable of lying, cheating, stealing, drunkenness, carousing, adultery, hatred and even murder. How do I know this? I have done a number of those things after being solidly regenerated! Was I walking in darkness as I did those things? You bet, but I returned to the light. However, at no time did I become unborn of God . . . though I was acting like the so-called prodigal son.

Does that make sense?

I already brought up "unborn" in another response to you and said explicitly that I am not talking about someone being unborn.......

We have had this discussion in other threads before.....regarding a genuine believer committing these kinds of sins. The way you describe a genuine believer as apparently acting is contrary to the fruits of the Spirit which are what show someone to be a genuine believer. I don't think either of our positions or viewpoints have changed from other threads, and I'm not interested in repeating the same discussion.

If you don't see such a thing as a false believer in scripture.....okay then! I know I'm not going to be the one to convince you

Trapped

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by Trapped

StG - false believer doesn't mean someone who was genuinely born again and then becomes unborn. I don't think that's possible either. It's someone who isn't really born again. They might be innocuous - hanging around Christian circles, calling themselves a Christian, but not really a believer. Or they might be dangerous - wolf in sheep's clothing that crept in and is terrorizing the flock. At least that has been my understanding of it for a while.

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Thanks for clarifying!

To Sons to Glory! and others. This thread is taking place within the "Apologetic discussions" sub-forum. While I don't expect everyone who posts here to be a professional apologist, or even a good one for that matter, I would expect that anyone engaging with another poster would at least know the basic claims and arguments of the other person with whom they are engaged. This is why it is important, if you want to participate in a thread, to follow closely what has already been posted in the thread. If you're a little forgetful, like me, just go ahead and take a few minutes to review the past few days of postings before jumping right back into the fray. You'll be doing yourself and everyone else participating a big favor.

And always remember, "Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak and to remove all doubt."
-

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Trapped

I already brought up "unborn" in another response to you and said explicitly that I am not talking about someone being unborn.......

We have had this discussion in other threads before.....regarding a genuine believer committing these kinds of sins. The way you describe a genuine believer as apparently acting is contrary to the fruits of the Spirit which are what show someone to be a genuine believer. I don't think either of our positions or viewpoints have changed from other threads, and I'm not interested in repeating the same discussion.

If you don't see such a thing as a false believer in scripture.....okay then! I know I'm not going to be the one to convince you

Trapped

Thanks for that reminder . . . clarity trumps agreement in my book. We'll likely haul all these opinions into the kingdom with us, and in one glimpse of glory they all will be put in proper order!

[Raptor]

Originally Posted by Bible-believer

But note the verses, 5 virgins ran out of their "oil" (a type of the Holy Spirit) because they "all slumbered and slept" (they are not "working" for the Lord). The Holy Spirit is a free gift in the Church Age and sealed the believer unto the day of redemption(Eph.4:30, compare it with Psa.51:11take not thy holy spirit from me.), yet here in the parable, they need to "buy" it.

Yes, the Holy Spirit is a free gift and believers are sealed. But can you explain why then in Ephesians 5:18 we are still admonished to be filled with the Spirit? What happens to a believer that during his life neglected to be filled with the Spirit? What happens to a believer that chooses to be drunk with wine?

Do not get drunk on wine, which leads to reckless indiscretion. Instead, be filled with the Spirit.

[Raptor]

For it is by grace you have been saved through faith, and this not from yourselves; it is the gift of God, not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance as our way of life. Ephesiasn 2:8-10.

All genuine believers are saved eternally, they are born of God and enter the kingdom of God based on the redemptive work of Christ on the cross and cannot lose their salvation; it´s a gift by grace, through faith.

But only those who after being saved grow and overcome worldiness, Satan, and the flesh and have righteous works can inherit the millenial kingdom as a reward in the coming age; it´s by works.

(This truth should not be neglected, neither should it be abused to control and threaten others.)

[Bible-believer]

Originally Posted by Raptor

Yes, the Holy Spirit is a free gift and believers are sealed. But can you explain why then in Ephesians 5:18 we are still admonished to be filled with the Spirit? What happens to a believer that during his life neglected to be filled with the Spirit? What happens to a believer that chooses to be drunk with wine?

Do not get drunk on wine, which leads to reckless indiscretion. Instead, be filled with the Spirit.

Judicial Redemption is the first step to revive the dead spirit. And then we shall live a life with the Lord as our role model: the new birth and subsequent sanctification.
We understand a verse in the context. The entire passage from verses 10-18 is on the Christian's relation to the unsaved people around them in the world. It's for exhortations regarding separation and sanctification.
Paul reminds us "For we were sometimes darkness,” "but now are we light in the Lord:", so shall "walk as children of light:" (v.8)
"And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them." (v.11) "For it is a shame even to speak of those things WHICH ARE DONE OF THEM IN SECRET” (vs. 12).
Continue reading
5:14" Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light."
15 "See then that ye walk circumspectly, not as fools, but as wise,"
16" Redeeming the time, because the days are evil."
17 "Wherefore be ye not unwise, but understanding what the will of the Lord is."
18 "And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;"
Paul tells us what to do and what not to do.
And the Bible says we are going to be filled with something,
Luke 2:40: filled with wisdom.
John 16:6 filled your heart.
Rom. 1:29: being filled with all unrighteousness...
Rom. 15:14: filled with all knowledge
2 Cor. 7:4: filled with comfort
Acts 2:4: filled with the Holy Ghost
3:10: filled with wonder and amazement
5:17: filled with indignation
13:45: filled with envy
etc.
so we'd better be filled with the Holy Spirit.

[Bible-believer]

Originally Posted by Raptor

[B][ who can inherit the millenial kingdom as a reward in the coming age; it´s by works.

(This truth should not be neglected, neither should it be abused to control and threaten others.)

Sure. To be saved is different from getting a reward.

And yes, this truth should not be neglected nor be abused to control and threaten others.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Bible-believer

Sure. To be saved is different from getting a reward.

And yes, this truth should not be neglected nor be abused to control and threaten others.

That is a really well put and concise insight! It is a truth, but was used as a threat to control others . . . most lamentable.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

That is a really well put and concise insight! It is a truth, but was used as a threat to control others . . . most lamentable.

So much of the Bible - oneness, ministry, salvation, serving, theology, authority, prayer, etc. - was so twisted and distorted by LSM, creating such a system of error that for those who finally see thru it, can not rightly divide Biblical truths from error, and eventually give up on everything.

Recently I read this great little article by John Myer putting this whole mess in perspective - Answer One Big Question: “How Could I Have Anything to do with Jesus, When Religion has Hurt Me so Badly?”

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Ohio

So much of the Bible - oneness, ministry, salvation, serving, theology, authority, prayer, etc. - was so twisted and distorted by LSM, creating such a system of error that for those who finally see thru it, can not rightly divide Biblical truths from error, and eventually give up on everything.

Recently I read this great little article by John Myer putting this whole mess in perspective - Answer One Big Question: “How Could I Have Anything to do with Jesus, When Religion has Hurt Me so Badly?”

Thanks for sharing the article by bro John! In this world we WILL HAVE TRIBULATION, and that's just the way it is. And God uses all of it . . . our portion is to seek and find Him in every single thing that comes our way! As John inferred, finding Him also means we find His grace in dealing with any erroneous teaching or practice we experienced, and handle it all with love toward those who administered those errors. (And we seem to be doing a good job of that in this thread.)

[Zezima]

As the author of this thread, I think I’m even more confused now..

[UntoHim]

Sorry Zezima, I'm just as confused as you are! Maybe we can all take a step back, take a deep breath, and review Z's opening post. A lot of time and energy was spent on the parable of the virgins, and as we can see, Zezima has already conceded the implications of this parable. But what about the other parables used by those who advocate this doctrine of 1,000 years of punishment for believers? What about the rest of the New Testament?

Originally Posted by Zezima

Can we break this doctrine down? What if any validity does it have? Apart from the parables in Matthew about the virgins, or the talents.. is this doctrine sound at all?
How can someone who’s been saved by Grace, still not be accepted by God? It doesn’t make sense.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Sorry Zezima, I'm just as confused as you are! Maybe we can all take a step back, take a deep breath, and review Z's opening post. A lot of time and energy was spent on the parable of the virgins, and as we can see, Zezima has already conceded the implications of this parable. But what about the other parables used by those who advocate this doctrine of 1,000 years of punishment for believers? What about the rest of the New Testament?

It would help if Zezima would post more on the thread. This is a topic far bigger than the Recovery. Few Christians hear about discipline by the Lord either in this life or the next. Most prefer to assign all discipline to the unsaved, or perhaps believe that Christians who "need discipline" can lose their salvation (have their names removed from the book of life.)

This is actually a topic where it seems like no two believers have identical views, at least that I have talked to. This topic opens the door to perhaps endless discussion on eschatological prophecies. So I would hope that Zezima would hang around more interjecting comments and questions, so that the thread does not wander around, which all threads tend to do over time.

Zezima [/COLOR]what was helpful? What specific questions do you have? What is your own understanding of the Bible? Have you spent any time studying this topic? Not to drill you with questions, but your input will help keep things "on topic."

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Zezima

It would seem then, that the LR’s overcomer doctrine is one to throw out..

Let me go back to this previous thing you said (above). I think the LR's version of being an overcomer is a proper thing to dispense with, in that it was quite heavy on the punishment side. As I've said, since leaving the LC sphere well over two decades ago, I see the preponderance of passages in the NT talking about a race or a contest or an effort, in which there is a prize or something to gain. (see 1 Cor 3:11-13, 9:24, Hebrews 12:1, 2 Tim 4:7, Gal 5:7, James 1:12) The emphasis here is not so much punishment, but rather a prize to win or lose.

And, as pointed out before, even the verses stating the so-called "judgment seat of Christ/God" (Rom 4:10, 2 Cor 5:10), translate the Greek word "bema" as "judgement seat." And "bema seat" meant a place where someone of authority spoke or the place where the games in the Olympics were judged. I think Paul's reference is to the Olympic games - therefore there was a prize to be gained or lost . . . not punishment.

Therefore, if we go through our lives, not being "faithful in a few things" we will not win the prize and will not hear the Lord's words, "Well done good and faithful servant, enter into the joy of your Lord!" (Matt 25:23) Rather we will hear what the unfaithful servant in Matt 25:26-30 hears . . . we will not gain the reward for being "faithful in a few things" and will experience much emotional & spiritual angst resulting in "weeping and gnashing of teeth."

https://www.gotquestions.org/judgment-seat-Christ.html Ohio is right about there not being a ton of writing or speaking out there about Christians being "disciplined" or loosing out on a prize. Even this article I've linked to talks almost entirely of the positives, that is "the prize" to be gained. But with any prize or goal, there is the possibility of not winning or attaining it.

[Zezima]

Originally Posted by Ohio

It would help if Zezima would post more on the thread. This is a topic far bigger than the Recovery.

Not that helpful, all the verses that point to it are parables and can be interpreted a lot of different ways. What if someone Interprets the parable wrong, and uses that interpretation to negate the doctrine?

I have studied the Bible about it, you can read into the tax in a lot of places and pull that doctrine out. But at the same time it’s not a doctrine I want to be wrong about if it is correct.

Do I as a Christian need to be in fear that I won’t be an overcomer, and there is only a certain amount of Christians or a select few Christians who are the Overcomers, or the man child? I’m not sure.

Someone can very well point to the parables to justify that doctrine. But how do we know those parables don’t justify that doctrine?

It’s tough.

[Ohio]

The parables are only one type of scripture that points to rewards/discipline for believers. What about the plain words of scripture concerning the judgment seat of Christ? (I Cor 3.12-17; I Cor 4.4-5; 2 Cor 5.19-11)

Your comments indicate that "overcomers" are a certain class of believers in the body of Christ. This definitely is the message we received from WL and the Blendeds, and furthermore, that they had a lock on the "club," since every other Christian "out there" was helplessly and hopelessly degraded, divided, and pitifully part of "poor, poor Christianity.'

But the Bible tells us of no such "club." Also, what the Lord expects from us is good works, obedience, and prudence doing the will of God, based on what He has given us to work with. Sins, failures, and mistakes do not disqualify us because our debt to the law of God was been paid for thru faith in His sacrifice for us on the cross.

As the Bible continues to exhort us, those who are pleasing to God and will receive His blessing are often those who keep getting up, who refuse to quit, who endure hardship, who suffer for the gospel and for righteousness, who stay encouraged in the Lord, who love and give to others, who keep their heart for the Lord.

It's far better to do something for the Lord everyday than to worry about the result. It's kind of like going to school. If you start out worrying about graduation, you'll never finish your course. Rather stay focused on each day's "assignments," go to class, study hard, and you'll arrive - step by step.

[Bible-believer]

Originally Posted by Zezima

Is there any validity to this doctrine in the LR? It feels like a works based salvation, and did nothing but make me personally anxious / pursue God out of fear I’d be left in the outer darkness. I’ve since broken free of it, or at least refuse to believe it as it seems to contradict the gospel. It’s such a focal point in the LR and it’s the motivation of a lot of members Christian lives. Can we break this doctrine down? What if any validity does it have? Apart from the parables in Matthew about the virgins, or the talents.. is this doctrine sound at all?

How can someone who’s been saved by Grace, still not be accepted by God? It doesn’t make sense.

I understand the "anxious" feeling. In my locality, some saints stop attending because they don't want to hear the "overcomers" stuff.
To me, the overcomer stuff is never a threat, for I know it's not biblical.
And you are right. The overcomer doctrine is work-based.
But we know "by grace are we saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:" (Eph. 2:8)
Spiritually motivate Christians to live a pious life for the Lord is fine, but use it as a threat to restrain saints' stay in LR is not doctrinally.

[Zezima]

How can there be Christian punishment if the blood of Jesus cleanses you from EVERY sin?

[UntoHim]

I think your answer, my friend, might be found in parable of the talents, which immediately follows the parable of the 10 virgins. The one servant who was entrusted with the one talent, did not "sin" against the master per se. He did not steal the talent. He did not give the talent away. He did not lose the talent. But he did not invest the talent so that the master could reap the profits from the investment.

So, in the end, the servant was not punished for the sin of stealing or losing the talent, he was punished for not taking the valuable gift which was entrusted to him gaining a profit for the master.
-

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Zezima

How can there be Christian punishment if the blood of Jesus cleanses you from EVERY sin?

Do you have to confess, repent and ask for forgiveness for EVERY sin, or does genuine salvation cover EVERY sin you will ever commit thereafter? Or, once saved, do you get your ticket punched and don’t have to worry about sin anymore? Live like the devil is okay because you are a Christian? Paul addresses this:

1 Cor. 5:1 It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife. 2 And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.

3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed, 4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

6 Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump? 7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us: 8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators: 10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world. 11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat. 12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within? 13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.

Looks like punishment of a Christian and a rebuke to Christians who tolerated gross sin among them.

Nell

[Ohio]

Concerning the 1,000 year kingdom, during which some of us may or may not have the same outcome, think about the early Apostles - they have already been waiting 2,000 years. O.T. saints so much longer! With that perspective, the time frame seems more equitable.

Also, the Bible speaks of ripening "fruits," mentioning some as "first fruits." I think this millennial period of time is needed for many of God's children to "ripen," and some will take much longer than others, and that's why the Bible continually exhorts us to be ready, to watch, and be prepared.

Consider how many Christians will readily accept the "mark of the beast," which the Bible clearly warns us about. Those who refuse will be societal outcasts and enemies of the state like today's unvaxxed and worse - most will face the loss of all possessions, starvation, homelessness, imprisonment, etc. Perhaps it is these suffering ones who will be the real "overcomers," refusing to worship the beast, even unto death.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Zezima

How can there be Christian punishment if the blood of Jesus cleanses you from EVERY sin?

I may be the only one on here expressing this view, but I think "punishment" is too strong a word. I believe the preponderance of verses that apply don't have to do so much with punishment as they do with loss of reward. The blood of Christ is completely efficacious, but there is accountability for what what Christians did after salvation, that is, their works. While there may be some passages that seem to imply some sort of punishment for Christians, what I've come to see is that it's more about the loss of a reward.

(To clarify, we get redeemed and born of God and that redemption is sure! And then we do whatever we will, but there is accountability for what God's children do: "For we must all appear before the [bema] seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad." 2 Cor. 5:10)

One doesn't normally get punished for not winning a prize (unless maybe in certain communist countries). Yet there are consequences for not winning. All Christians' works will be tested - as in 1st Corinthians 3 where is says that what we are building with will be tested by fire. If what we've built with is not according to what He deems to be proper materials, our works will be burned-up, yet the person will be saved. "If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire." 1 Cor 3:15

Paul also speaks about running a race in several places, as does Hebrews (12:1). What happens if you don't run well in a race . . . do you get punished? Well, in a manner of speaking, there is the personal distress of not winning the prize (a lot could be said about the various reasons a believer may feel considerable angst about this). But the contest's judge does not usually whip those who lost the race . . .

[Zezima]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Consider how many Christians will readily accept the "mark of the beast," which the Bible clearly warns us about. Those who refuse will be societal outcasts and enemies of the state like today's unvaxxed and worse - most will face the loss of all possessions, starvation, homelessness, imprisonment, etc. Perhaps it is these suffering ones who will be the real "overcomers," refusing to worship the beast, even unto death.

Does it warn us? Or does it warn a specific group of people that the letter was written to at a specific time?

Did John John really write a letter in 98 AD to the saints in 2021 about a vaccine? Why didn’t he write about driver’s license, or SS#’s? Seems myopic, how many vaccines have been mandated since it’s time of writing? How many government mandates across the world have occurred since then? But surely John meant the covid vaccine /s


Anyways, not to go off topic here. So if a Christian can take the mark of the beast, and lose salvation, how powerful then is the blood of Christ really?

[Zezima]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

One doesn't normally get punished for not winning a prize (unless maybe in certain communist countries). Yet there are consequences for not winning.

So what does winning look like it entail?

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Zezima

So what does winning look like it entail?

Good question! I think we often believe we have to be a super-saint, but the Lord tells the faithful servant in Matthew 25, "Well done good and faithful servant - you have ben faithful in a FEW things." And if you look at Hebrews chapter 11, the "Faith Chapter," you see that the ones listed were not necessarily acting like super-saints all the time . . . there were many failings. My belief is that the Lord will impress on us the few things to be faithful in. (I have 4 specific things I know I need to be faithful in.)

[Raptor]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

... but I think "punishment" is too strong a word. I believe the preponderance of verses that apply don't have to do so much with punishment as they do with loss of reward.

(To clarify, we get redeemed and born of God and that redemption is sure! And then we do whatever we will, but there is accountability for what God's children do: "For we must all appear before the [bema] seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad." 2 Cor. 5:10). One doesn't normally get punished for not winning a prize[/I]

There are many verses that show not only loss of reward but also discipline and/or punishment for believers. We also have many cases, both in the Old T. and New T. concerning D and P. Entire chapters, books and accounts. And it´s relative, there is a large range, depending on every case....

Concerning the metaphorical use of a competition there is a third aspect you are not including:

1.) win = reward
2.) not win = lose reward
3.) cheat = discipline or punishment

Yes, maybe no punishment for not winning a prize, but surely punishment for behaving bad.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Raptor

There are many verses that show not only loss of reward but also discipline and/or punishment. We also have many cases, both in the Old T. and New T. concerning D and P. Entire chapters, books and accounts. And it´s relative, there is a large range, depending on every case....

Concerning the metaphorical use of a competition there is a third aspect you are not including:

1.) win = reward
2.) not win = lose reward
3.) cheat = discipline or punishment

Yes, maybe no punishment for not winning a prize, but surely punishment for behaving bad.

Does 1 Cor. 5:5 sound like punishment?

“5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.”

Punishment has a purpose…that the spirit might be saved.

Nell

[Raptor]

Originally Posted by Nell

Does 1 Cor. 5:5 sound like punishment? “5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.” Punishment has a purpose…that the spirit might be saved.

I believe God always has the good intention and purpose to restore His children and bring them on to full salvation. It just depends how you define the words, "discipline" and "punishment." Moses disobeyed the Lord and missed the entrance to the good land. That seems more on the side of discipline. The wicked servant in Matthew 24 seems to get more on the side of punishment. "The master of that servant will come on a day he does not expect and at an hour he does not anticipate. Then he will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites." (50-51).

"Punishment, commonly, is the imposition of an undesirable or unpleasant outcome upon a group or individual, meted out by an authority—in contexts ranging from child discipline to criminal law—as a response and deterrent to a particular action or behavior that is deemed undesirable or unacceptable."

[Zezima]

Originally Posted by Raptor

I believe God always has the good intention and purpose to restore His children and bring them on to full salvation. It just depends how you define the words, "discipline" and "punishment." Moses disobeyed the Lord and missed the entrance to the good land. That seems more on the side of discipline. The wicked servant in Matthew 24 seems to get more on the side of punishment. "The master of that servant will come on a day he does not expect and at an hour he does not anticipate. Then he will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites." (50-51).

"Punishment, commonly, is the imposition of an undesirable or unpleasant outcome upon a group or individual, meted out by an authority—in contexts ranging from child discipline to criminal law—as a response and deterrent to a particular action or behavior that is deemed undesirable or unacceptable."

In the context of this thread, scroll down for how we define discipline.

[Nell]

There's also the matter of "punishment" and/or "discipline" at the hands of the "elders" in the Local Churches of Witness Lee. The "overcomer" teaching was used, and as some have noted, is still used as a threat to control the behavior of the membership.

Years ago, I was called into a "little dark room" as I came to know it, by 5 men who were called "elders" and I was "disciplined." I was terrified that night. I was filled with a fear that influenced my walk with the Lord for years after it happened.

I didn't understand their accusations against me. Even thought I didn't understand what was happening, I apologized and repented...surely I had done something wrong...so I assumed that I was in the wrong. I was too scared not to go along with their accusations.

My accusers, a couple I was living with, never actually confronted me before going to the "elders". Some of the accusations against me were false. Some were accusations of not doing things that were not my responsibility to do. i.e., "You made a pregnant sister walk to the meeting." She, in fact, never asked for a ride...never told me it was my responsibility to provide transportation for her. I would have been happy to help, had I known help was needed. Why didn't she just ask for a ride? Just let me know she needed a ride?

Why was this a matter for the "elders" to get involved? The "elders" should have told my accusers to talk to me. Rather, they took the opportunity to discipline and punish me.

I thought I was going to drop dead, literally. I was terrified by their treatment of me. I was gripped by what I now believe was a demonic fear...at the instigation by LC leadership. I thought there would be young men waiting outside the door to take my dead body away.

They told me to go somewhere and spend the rest of the night, or however long it took, to bare my soul to the Lord and clear up my horrible sinful behavior. The shame they had heaped on me was almost unbearable.

I went to a nearby park and, for safety, I hid myself. I began to pray and ask the Lord for guidance on what I had been accused of. A strange thing occurred. I didn't cry...I couldn't cry. I was calm. I tried to "confess". I did what the "elders" told me to do. There was nothing from the Lord. Nothing. I wondered if I was so bad that not even God would talk to me anymore. I didn't feel his absence. I felt his presence. No fear. Eventually, I just went home.

***

It wasn't until years later that I understood the reason God did not talk to me that night: He did not condemn me. My accusers accused me. The "elders" accused and condemned me, but God did not.

For years after that, I was driven by fear...not of godly fear, but fear of the "elders". I was afraid I would be ambushed again. I sat in the meetings and cried. Yes! I still went to the meetings! How bizzare is that?

***

Eventually, 4 of those 5 men gave all the membership the opportunity to talk with them and say whatever we needed to say. (Wow! They actually asked for feedback?)

I brought this event to their attention and asked why ... ? I told them what life had been like for me. I told them that their accusations didn't make sense to me...I didn't understand. I told them I had no idea they had a problem with me, until I was ambushed by them.

They apologized and admitted they were wrong. Four out of five repented. Whaaattt? Yep. The other one was not there, and never repented.

I don't know if this kind of thing still happens. It does confirm that God did not condemn me that night. It was a group of 5 men who admitted they were wrong.

By the way, one woman should NEVER be alone in a room with five men, for any reason. One woman should NEVER be alone in a room with ONE man who is not her husband.

I hope this helps someone. I feel sure I was not the only one who was terrified by the unrighteous discipline and punishment by Local Church leadership.

Nell

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Nell

Years ago, I was called into a "little dark room" as I came to know it, by 5 men who were called "elders" and I was "disciplined." I was terrified that night. I was filled with a fear that influenced my walk with the Lord for years after it happened.

This whole sad story is just flat out wrong on so many levels. I'm so glad you have "recovered" from this mistreatment in the Recovery and the Comforter of the Lord has healed you, Nell. And thank you so much for sharing.

This ugly pattern was learned and duplicated from the top down. I doubt these elders would have treated you this way if they operated as an independent "local church, each answering to the Lord" as we were taught and sang in that song. (Hymns #824)

In this regard WL totally misrepresented God, a loving and righteous Father who cares for all of His children. Brutal and unrighteous abuses such as this were portrayed as "bearing the cross." This kind of unrestrained power thrust upon silent subservient devotees made monsters out of the leadership, all patterned by how WL treated his circle of lieutenants.

Moses misrepresented God when the Israelites were stubborn and naughty and he suffered loss. Then how about elders who misrepresent God to the little ones in their congregations who have done nothing wrong?

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Raptor

There are many verses that show not only loss of reward but also discipline and/or punishment for believers. We also have many cases, both in the Old T. and New T. concerning D and P. Entire chapters, books and accounts. And it´s relative, there is a large range, depending on every case....

Concerning the metaphorical use of a competition there is a third aspect you are not including:

1.) win = reward
2.) not win = lose reward
3.) cheat = discipline or punishment

Yes, maybe no punishment for not winning a prize, but surely punishment for behaving bad.

Interesting #3 regarding cheating and that may need more exploring (you may have something here) . . . And yes . . . I know I didn't get "all the squirrels" up the one tree here! I was just pointing out that I think the preponderance of passages in the NT look to me to be more about gaining the reward or loss of the reward, rather than outright punishment. There are certainly passages that seem to go beyond just loss of reward, but regardless, as Nell pointed out, there is a purpose and God lovingly wants to help us and develop us fully into what He has planned.

[Raptor]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Interesting #3 regarding cheating and that may need more exploring (you may have something here) . . . And yes . . . I know I didn't get "all the squirrels" up the one tree here! I was just pointing out that I think the preponderance of passages in the NT look to me to be more about gaining the reward or loss of the reward, rather than outright punishment. There are certainly passages that seem to go beyond just loss of reward, but regardless, as Nell pointed out, there is a purpose and God lovingly wants to help us and develop us fully into what He has planned.

That is not a squirrel....that is the main point of major portions of Scripture. Entire books and chapters are about that. There are there for a reason.

On the other hand, our focus should be Christ and our deep, loving relationship with Him in subjection and obedience. It´s interesting....a believer may know all the truths about the Judgement Seat of Christ, reward/punishment, overcoming, and still miss out. Yet another believer may not be aware of all that but still enter into the joy of the Lord, "well done, good and faithful servant!"

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Raptor

It´s interesting....a believer may know all the truths about the Judgement Seat of Christ, reward/punishment, overcoming, and still miss out. Yet another believer may not be aware of all that but still enter into the joy of the Lord, "well done, good and faithful servant!"

Exactly! And I believe there's one thing we can be sure about - His amazing love in all His plans and interactions with us!

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Ohio

This whole sad story is just flat out wrong on so many levels. I'm so glad you have "recovered" from this mistreatment in the Recovery and the Comforter of the Lord has healed you, Nell. And thank you so much for sharing.

This ugly pattern was learned and duplicated from the top down. I doubt these elders would have treated you this way if they operated as an independent "local church, each answering to the Lord" as we were taught and sang in that song. (Hymns #824)

In this regard WL totally misrepresented God, a loving and righteous Father who cares for all of His children. Brutal and unrighteous abuses such as this were portrayed as "bearing the cross." This kind of unrestrained power thrust upon silent subservient devotees made monsters out of the leadership, all patterned by how WL treated his circle of lieutenants.

Moses misrepresented God when the Israelites were stubborn and naughty and he suffered loss. Then how about elders who misrepresent God to the little ones in their congregations who have done nothing wrong?

Thanks, Ohio. I appreciate your care and concern.

Nell

[Raptor]

The Bible clearly teaches 2 types or stages of being victorious:

1.) Victorious over unbelief - instantaneous, when you first believe, unconditional, by faith.
...this is the victory having overcome the world: our faith. 1 John 5:4.

2.) Victorious over Satan, the flesh, worldliness - takes time, throughout your entire life, conditional, by works.

....I write to you, young men, because you are strong, and the word of God abides in you, and you have overcome the evil one. 1 John 2:14.

Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. Galatians 5:25.

Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. 1 John 2:15.

[Raptor]

Originally Posted by Zezima

How can there be Christian punishment if the blood of Jesus cleanses you from EVERY sin?

Because there are many judgements from God, for different kinds of people, at different times The 2 main judgements are :

1.) Judgment at the Great White Throne (Rev. 20:11).

A person who has received Christ as their Savior will NOT have to face this judgement, the blood of Jesus has cleansed them from EVERY sin, they have eternal life, and will be in the New Jerusalem for eternity.

2.) Judgement Seat of Christ (2 Cor. 5:10).

A person who has received Christ as their Savior will have to face this judgement, to give an account of his life, living, works, unconfessed sins, etc. It will be determined whether they enter the joy and glory of the Lord in the millenial kingdom.

Believing in Christ, victorious over #1, does NOT automatically grant you to be victorious at #2.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Raptor

Because there are many judgements from God, for different kinds of people, at different times The 2 main judgements are :

1.) Judgment at the Great White Throne (Rev. 20:11).

A person who has received Christ as their Savior will NOT have to face this judgement, the blood of Jesus has cleansed them from EVERY sin, they have eternal life, and will be in the New Jerusalem for eternity.

2.) Judgement Seat of Christ (2 Cor. 5:10).

A person who has received Christ as their Savior will have to face this judgement, to give an account of his life, living, works, unconfessed sins, etc. It will be determined whether they enter the joy and glory of the Lord in the millenial kingdom.

Believing in Christ, victorious over #1, does NOT automatically grant you to be victorious at #2.

Yes, there are many judgements from God and these two, in my mind, are the big ones for humans. When we went through the book of Revelation a couple years ago, it was eye opening for me and it put all the judgements and wrath of God into a more proper perspective. Love is the main theme of God in the Bible and that encompasses the final book, including all the judgements there. In His love, He must eradicate those things which harm us. Like a cancer, sin and death have plagued His beings with a myriad of maladies. The more cancer present, the more eradicating there must be.

So His judgments are just and helpful to us. And if we don't allow the Great Physician to cut those bad things out now, He is left with no choice but to cut them out later. And this includes Christians - after the new birth, we still can choose to take His way and let Him do His work in us or not! Therefore, I pray often, "Lord, I am willing to be made willing for you to operate in me in this area."

And I might add that I believe being faithful in those "few things" He's given each of us to do, gives Him a primary way to operate in us.

[Raptor]

Originally Posted by Zezima

Not that helpful, all the verses that point to it are parables and can be interpreted a lot of different ways. What if someone Interprets the parable wrong, and uses that interpretation to negate the doctrine?

Zezima, are you still interested in this topic? The Lord purposefully spoke in parables many different times; He chose that route for several reasons. Is it hard? Yes it can be...Is it "risky", YES! But He still chose to do it that way. Thankfully, we have the whole Bible with many kinds of speakings, illustrations, descriptions, etc. to help to get a better understanding. There are other portions of Scripture that are not parables, that also talk about believers being judged and reward/discpline.

One that seems to get overlooked is in Matthew 6:14,15; this is after the "Lord´s prayer" in 6:9-13. So many people are familiar with the "Lord´s prayer." It is a very popoular portion of Scripture, not only for believers, but it is well known outside of christian circles, used in movies, etc. etc. YET, how many pay attention to verse 15? Now here it is absolutely clear that the Lord is speaking to believers: He is speaking to His disciples, teaching them how to pray and constantly refers to God as their Father, and even in verse 7 makes a distinction between them and the pagans or Gentiles.

But then He adds in 14 and 15:

For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive yours.

[Zezima]

Originally Posted by Raptor

Zezima, are you still interested in this topic? The Lord purposefully spoke in parables many different times; He chose that route for several reasons. Is it hard? Yes it can be...Is it "risky", YES! But He still chose to do it that way. Thankfully, we have the whole Bible with many kinds of speakings, illustrations, descriptions, etc. to help to get a better understanding. There are other portions of Scripture that are not parables, that also talk about believers being judged and reward/discpline.

One that seems to get overlooked is in Matthew 6:14,15; this is after the "Lord´s prayer" in 6:9-13. So many people are familiar with the "Lord´s prayer." It is a very popoular portion of Scripture, not only for believers, but it is well known outside of christian circles, used in movies, etc. etc. YET, how many pay attention to verse 15? Now here it is absolutely clear that the Lord is speaking to believers: He is speaking to His disciples, teaching them how to pray and constantly refers to God as their Father, and even in verse 7 makes a distinction between them and the pagans or Gentiles.

But then He adds in 14 and 15:

For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive yours.

Sure, if you take those two verses out of the context of the entire sermon, then it can be used to back your point up. LSM does this frequently, they cherry pick verses, take them out of the context that they were written in, and apply them to a bullet point.

Happy to discuss this more, but if you’re going to cherry pick…I’d rather not.

All of the commands in the New Testament point us to Jesus. Our position of victory over sin is by him and him alone.

[Trapped]

We don't have to belabor this point again, but I ran across a verse tonight that actually speaks specifically of false believers, so just wanted to put it here for the sake of adding it to that particular discussion.

Galatians 2:4-5
4 This matter arose because some false believers had infiltrated our ranks to spy on the freedom we have in Christ Jesus and to make us slaves.
5 We did not give in to them for a moment, so that the truth of the gospel might be preserved for you.

Various translations say false believers, false brothers, so-called believers, etc... (pseudadelphos)

Trapped

[Bible-believer]

I argued with a close saint regarding the overcomer doctrine earlier. And at that moment, I felt fury and deep sadness. During the argument, I realize lots of saints are suffering from the Stockholm syndrome without noticing it. They have been "kidnapped" and "brainwashed" by LR for too long.
No matter how many verses and proofs you show them, they end up defending Lee's teachings. They are so afraid of leaving LR to become the "defeated believers." LR makes them believe only LR could produce overcomers.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Bible-believer

I argued with a close saint regarding the overcomer doctrine earlier. And at that moment, I felt fury and deep sadness. During the argument, I realize lots of saints are suffering from the Stockholm syndrome without noticing it. They have been "kidnapped" and "brainwashed" by LR for too long.
No matter how many verses and proofs you show them, they end up defending Lee's teachings. They are so afraid of leaving LR to become the "defeated believers." LR makes them believe only LR could produce overcomers.

Recently I came across a great series of videos made by former Amish who traced their history back to their beginnings in Europe during the Reformation. Amish leaders, formerly imprisoned and tortured for their faith, after finding new liberties in America, used ordinances and traditions to subsequently imprison succeeding generations. I found the psychological implications quite fascinating.

The incredibly strong shackles of fear which keep their members “locked up” is overwhelming. Similar to the LC exodus, their liberty was enabled by reading, believing, and clinging to the Word of God. Their confining ordinances, regulating every part of daily life, were a blinding layer separating them from God and His word. The supposed benefits of sanctification, creating a race of Amish “overcomers,” actually we’re nothing more than chains to control each subsequent generation as they themselves had been. From infancy they are indoctrinated into believing that leaving the Amish results in eternal hellfire.

Uniformity is such a powerful substitute for the genuine oneness of the Spirit. While their outward attire appears homogenous to the outside world, subtle details distinguish them and expose how fractured their communities really are. Amish uniformity has merely created endless splintering and divisions, destroying even the bonds of family. If you want to see where the Recovery is headed, study other exclusive communities like the Amish, or the Plymouth Brethren.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Uniformity is such a powerful substitute for the genuine oneness of the Spirit. While their outward attire appears homogenous to the outside world, subtle details distinguish them and expose how fractured their communities really are. Amish uniformity has merely created endless splintering and divisions, destroying even the bonds of family. If you want to see where the Recovery is headed, study other exclusive communities like the Amish, or the Plymouth Brethren.

I've been previously struck with the similarities of the Amish and LC. Eventually, the legalism and control completely squeezes Christ and the flow of the Spirit completely out. (I've heard many Amish don't actually know the Lord and are not regenerated.) People get stuck in a complex culture that is built-up over time - quite the stronghold. These kinds of controls are shackles that subvert the working of the Spirit in a believer's life, so transformation is greatly hindered. It is for freedom, saints, that Christ set us free!

Only in the atmosphere of this freedom can we let Him effectively grow within us.

[Bible-believer]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Recently I came across a great series of videos made by former Amish who traced their history back to their beginnings in Europe during the Reformation. Amish leaders, formerly imprisoned and tortured for their faith, after finding new liberties in America, used ordinances and traditions to subsequently imprison succeeding generations. I found the psychological implications quite fascinating.



Uniformity is such a powerful substitute for the genuine oneness of the Spirit. While their outward attire appears homogenous to the outside world, subtle details distinguish them and expose how fractured their communities really are. Amish uniformity has merely created endless splintering and divisions, destroying even the bonds of family. If you want to see where the Recovery is headed, study other exclusive communities like the Amish, or the Plymouth Brethren.

I lost the friendship. So sad. No different voices accepted.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

I've been previously struck with the similarities of the Amish and LC. Eventually, the legalism and control completely squeezes Christ and the flow of the Spirit completely out. (I've heard many Amish don't actually know the Lord and are not regenerated.) People get stuck in a complex culture that is built-up over time - quite the stronghold. These kinds of controls are shackles that subvert the working of the Spirit in a believer's life, so transformation is greatly hindered. It is for freedom, saints, that Christ set us free!

Trapped and nearly all other ex-members have talked about how fear held them within LC confines. The Amish keep their own via shunning, which is identical to being put out of the Synagogue for believing in Jesus (John 9.22). Imagine never being able to talk to friends and family for some infraction like reading the Bible in English rather than "high German" which no one even understands. (I never knew that the Amish demanded only the High German text of scripture be used. I doubt even Germans could understand it, knowing how much language changes over time.)

Like other fear based religious systems, the Recovery uses the fear of man and man-pleasing to replace the healthy fear of God, which is the beginning of wisdom (Proverbs 9.10). LSM President Benson Philips promised that those who leave the Recovery would never be sanctified, as if those who remain are the only sanctified "overcomers." Multiple Blendeds have discussed their fear of facing WL and giving an account when they die. WL said as much about facing W. Nee.

As I left the Recovery, I was overwhelmed with the accumulation of false promises I had received in that system. False promises are merely lies with no expiration date. Likewise the regular condemnations on the rest of Christianity. But look at the condition in the Recovery. What kind of God do we have if all of His blessings are confined to that place. Does God really need all of those lawyers and lawsuits to protect "overcomers?"

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Does God really need all of those lawyers and lawsuits to protect "overcomers?"

Oh that's rich!

[Raptor]

For those who left the LR, the word of wisdom is: Don´t throw out the bread with the leaven, rather purge out the leaven. Don´t throw out the truth about the Kingdom of the Heaveans together with the distortions, rather purge out the distortions. The Lord will come back and ....all the churches will know that I am the One who searches minds and hearts, and I will repay each of you according to your deeds. Revelation 3:23

So we need to hear and understand the gospel of the kingdom: Because of this, the kingdom of the heavens has become like to a man, a king, who desired to settle accounts with his servants,... Matthew 18:23. The kingdom of the heavens is like a king, who made a wedding feast for his son,... Matthew 22:2. What is the status of our account as a servant? Are we preparing our garment for the wedding feast?

Therefore keep watch....you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour you do not expect, Matthew 24:42,44.

[OBW]

Originally Posted by Raptor

For those who left the LR, the word of wisdom is: Don´t throw out the bread with the leaven, rather purge out the leaven. Don´t throw out the truth about the Kingdom of the Heaveans together with the distortions, rather purge out the distortions. The Lord will come back and ....all the churches will know that I am the One who searches minds and hearts, and I will repay each of you according to your deeds. Revelation 3:23

So we need to hear and understand the gospel of the kingdom: Because of this, the kingdom of the heavens has become like to a man, a king, who desired to settle accounts with his servants,... Matthew 18:23. The kingdom of the heavens is like a king, who made a wedding feast for his son,... Matthew 22:2. What is the status of our account as a servant? Are we preparing our garment for the wedding feast?

Therefore keep watch....you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour you do not expect, Matthew 24:42,44.

Mostly true. However, in the context of the teachings of the LC, these are all colored with Lee/Nee-colored glasses. Everything is understood with the overlay of the LC as the current manifestation of the kingdom that is virtually the only place in which such overcoming can occur.

So with no context, you have said little because it is mostly just quoting scripture with no real, meaningful comment. Add the context and you stoke the fears instilled by years of LC dogma.

As uncommented quoting, don't bother posting. As subterfuge to stoke old LC fears, we see it for what it is and refuse to buckle.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Raptor

For those who left the LR, the word of wisdom is: Don´t throw out the bread with the leaven, rather purge out the leaven. Don´t throw out the truth about the Kingdom of the Heaveans together with the distortions, rather purge out the distortions. The Lord will come back and ....all the churches will know that I am the One who searches minds and hearts, and I will repay each of you according to your deeds. Revelation 3:23

Raptor,

Check your reference. Revelation 3 in my Bible only has 22 verses.

Is it your intention to come across as condescending and preachy to "those who left the LR"? You would remiss if you do not preach to all, and include those who remain in the "LR"...the "LR" has some leaven too.

So we need to hear and understand the gospel of the kingdom: Because of this, the kingdom of the heavens has become like to a man, a king, who desired to settle accounts with his servants,... Matthew 18:23. The kingdom of the heavens is like a king, who made a wedding feast for his son,... Matthew 22:2. What is the status of our account as a servant? Are we preparing our garment for the wedding feast?

Therefore keep watch....you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour you do not expect, Matthew 24:42,44.

Do you preach the same message to the "LR"?

Nell

[OBW]

Raptor,

Further to my last post, saying "don't throw out the bread with the leaven" could be the equivalent of saying "don't throw out the world with the kingdom." Thinking particularly of the parable in which the kingdom is "like leaven" which uses leaven as the kingdom and the dough as something other than the kingdom. In that case, you don't want to throw out the leaven. You want to add more of it.

[UntoHim]

But I buffet my body and make it my slave, lest perhaps having preached to others, I myself may become disapproved.
Recovery Version
But I discipline my body and keep it under control, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified.
English Standard Version
But I buffet my body, and lead it captive, lest after having preached to others I should be myself rejected.
Darby
But [like a boxer] I strictly discipline my body and make it my slave, so that, after I have preached [the gospel] to others, I myself will not somehow be disqualified [as unfit for service].
Amplified

No one preached and warned about the Kingdom of God more than the apostle Paul. No one exhorted and encouraged others more concerning the Kingdom of God than the apostle Paul. But his focus did not seem to be set on the future Kingdom of God. He never specifically mentions anything about the Millennial Kingdom, or even the New Jerusalem. What he seemed to be most concerned about, however, is the here and now, and the ever-present possibility that one could actually be "disapproved", "disqualified", "rejected" or become "unfit for service". Paul seemed to be very aware of the possibility that one could spend a lifetime "preaching to others" while at the very same time become disqualified himself. This was also the heart, attitude and mindset of our Lord Jesus Christ - "though he was rich, yet for your sake he became poor, so that you by his poverty might become rich". (2 Cor 8:9) Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. (Phil 2:5-8)

Brothers and sisters, what is the fruit of the teachings of Watchman Nee and Witness Lee regarding the Kingdom of God and the Kingdom of the heavens and the so-called "Overcomers"? Have these teachings produced a people who have the heart, attitude and mindset of our Lord Jesus Christ, or even those of the apostle Paul? What have these teachings produced in the current leadership in the Local Church movement - the "Blended Brothers", or "The Co-Workers in the Lord's Recovery in North America"? What is the heart, attitude and mindset displayed by these men over the past number of years in dealing with many dear saints who have expressed legitimate concerns and heartfelt consternation regarding a myriad issues - issues that deserve to be addressed properly, publicly and immediately. The saints in the Local Churches are waiting. Families are waiting. The Christian public is waiting. The Lord is waiting.

Let this mind be in me
which was also in you,
though equal to God laid aside
All glory and honor,
was emptied and humbled,
then you went to the cross and died.

Let this heart be in me,
which was also in you,
a heart that is pure and that sees
That which is just and
that which is holy,
still for the lost and lonely grieves.

Let this faith be in me
which was also in you,
not just to move mountains but souls
A faith which believes your promise,
knows you alone have power to
make this broken man whole.

Let this love be in me
which was also in you,
no greater love then our true Friend
May this love abide within me,
and by your great mercy
stay with me until the end.
-

[Bible-believer]

Rev. 2:7 says, “He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.”

This is the first promise to the “overcomer.”
Are we, Christians, overcomers? According to 1John 4:4, 5:4-5, we are.

1John 4:4 says, “Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.”
1John 5:4-5 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

But do we, Christians, need to eat the tree of life to get eternal life?

Now, every place we find this “tree of life” in the Bible, it is a means of obtaining eternal life; and its “partaking” is based on works, not on grace.
For example, Revelation 22:14 says, “Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.”

Rev. 22:2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

We are told that a man has to “keep the commandments” to partake of the tree of life. And the context shows “the leaves of the tree of life were for the healing of the nations.”

Question: Are we Christians or nations?

We are Christians. And according to the Scripture, how do Christians get eternal life? We get eternal life by believing in Jesus Christ and trusting Him as our Savior. Not by eating the tree of life.

We read in verses:
John 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

John 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.

John 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

John 17:2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

Act 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

Rom 5:21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

Titus 2:1-2 Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness; In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

1John 2:25 And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.

1John 5:11-12 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

The “tree of life,” as we find it in Revelation 2, 21–22, is always a reference to a tree that people get life out of by coming to it and eating. They receive this right to come and eat by works, “by doing the commandments.” Therefore, Revelation 2:7 cannot apply doctrinally to a Christian.

There are three groups of people in the Bible: The Gentiles, the Jews, and the Body.

Although 2Tim 3:16 says, "All scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness." But for the doctrine application, we have to discern carefully. For example, under the 10 Commandments, Jews have to observe the Sabbath; do we, Christians, need to? Or are we under the 10 Commandments?

LR misapplies doctrines to the three groups and causes confusion. Overcomer theory is one of them.

[UntoHim]

Aside from Revelation, is the tree of life mentioned by the Lord Jesus or any of the scripture writing apostles in the New Testament? No. Not one mention. If Christians needed to eat the tree of life to get eternal life this would notion would be very prominent in the New Testament....just sayin...
-

[Bible-believer]

When reading Lee's "The Overcomers" Chapter 6, it says,

The composition of the overcomers:
1. The overcomers crying to the Lord for His avenging at the fifth seal, comprising all the martyrs from Abel to those before the fifth seal—Rev. 6:9-11.
2. The man-child born of the universal woman—12:1-5: Comprising the martyrs who cry at the fifth seal and the additional martyrs before the great tribulation. To be resurrected and raptured to the throne of God before the three and a half years of the great tribulation—vv. 4b-6.
3. The one hundred forty-four thousand living overcomers raptured before the great tribulation to Mount Zion in the heavens before God’s throne as firstfruits to God and to the Lamb—14:1-5.
4. The martyrs in the great tribulation under the persecution of Antichrist resurrected and raptured to stand on the glassy sea close to the end of the great tribulation—15:2-4; 13:7a.
5. The two witnesses martyred, resurrected, and raptured to the heavens in the cloud at the close of the great tribulation—11:3-12.

In short, there are two kinds of overcomers:
1. Alive: only 144000. (Being raptured alive)
2. Dead: Martyrs of various times. (Be resurrected and then raptured)

I found it is interesting.

First, Lee was dead, so he was not included in the 144000.
Second, he died naturally, not martyred.

So, Lee was not an overcomer according to his definition.

Lee stated he was the minister of the age, the oracle of God, and he opened the Bible, published tons of writings; he failed to be an overcomer, according to his publication.

[Nell]

So Bible-Believe, do you think your question “But do we, Christians, need to eat the tree of life to get eternal life?” Can come closer to a truthful answer by first determining the nature (descriptive or prescriptive) of the verses you’re citing?

“Descriptive or Prescriptive?

An issue that plays a major role in understanding the Bible is the distinction between what’s descriptive and prescriptive.

Descriptive writing tells us what’s going on. Sarah laughed; Moses threw down the tablets; Samuel anointed David the next king of Israel. (Send the letter to the church in Ephesus)

Descriptive writing does not intend to offer instruction or opinion on a particular matter. The author is relaying what happened or what was said. Think of it as a description of the painting.

Prescriptive writing on the other hand intends to tell us to do or not do something. The Ten Commandments are prescriptive. The worship practices of Leviticus are prescriptive. When Jesus says “Be perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect” (Matt. 5:48) he’s speaking prescriptively. Think of it as a prescription for medicine from a doctor.

The problem comes when we mix these up—when we think that the Bible’s description of circumstances directs us to do the same, or at the very least, grants us permission. We find examples in Abraham’s life. Twice he lies to kings saying Sarah is his sister and not wife. Both times the kings uncover his lie. Yet, despite their anger, they shower him in riches as they send him away. These stories are not prescribing a get-rich-quick scheme. These passages describe what happened and how God worked Abraham’s sin and folly for the good of him and his family.”

It might be helpful, on another topic, to determine how many of Witness Lee’s teachings are based on turning a description into a prescription/command to be obeyed. One church one city, for example, is a classic.

Nell

[Bible-believer]

Originally Posted by Nell

So Bible-Believe, do you think your question “But do we, Christians, need to eat the tree of life to get eternal life?” Can come closer to a truthful answer by first determining the nature (descriptive or prescriptive) of the verses you’re citing?


It might be helpful, on another topic, to determine how many of Witness Lee’s teachings are based on turning a description into a prescription/command to be obeyed. One church one city, for example, is a classic.

Nell

--------

Originally Posted by Trapped

And I guess my musing response to your question is.....if we don't need the tree of life, why would God bother putting it in the holy city? If it still serves the same purpose, but we don't need it.....then who does?
I know the nations are healed by its leaves....but Revelation still speaks of it producing fruits every month. My assumption, and I think it's a reasonable one, is that those fruits are for the believers. It producing new fruits every months seems to indicate to me that we are to continually eat of its new produce......thus the way we continue on in eternal life, just like Adam/Eve would have if they hadn't disobeyed.
But maybe I'm making assumptions that aren't really stated in Scripture. I don't know. What did you have in mind, or what are your thoughts about why the tree of life is there?

Originally Posted by Bible-believer

I do have some thoughts, and I try to organize them together. I'll start a new post regarding this subject when ready. (Avoid getting STG's post off track.)

---------
Trapped and I talked about the "tree of life" in STG's post. We talked about who needed to eat it.

I believe we, Christians, don't need to eat the tree of life, for we have the Eternal Life already. In my post, I listed verses for my stand.

Yes, there are descriptive and prescriptive, but when coming to "doctrines," as I said, we have to discern and apply carefully. That's why I started the topic with a question and then listed the scriptures for answers. And, of course, it's my thoughts, and I certainly believe I don't need to eat the tree of life to get eternal life. I never agreed with LR's overcomer- theory.

Anyway, we are exchanging our thoughts and opinions. I am not a Bible teacher, yet a believer and student. What I share here is my view, and I never have the intention to force it on others.

[Robert]

Originally Posted by Nell

So Bible-Believe, do you think your question “But do we, Christians, need to eat the tree of life to get eternal life?” Can come closer to a truthful answer by first determining the nature (descriptive or prescriptive) of the verses you’re citing?



It might be helpful, on another topic, to determine how many of Witness Lee’s teachings are based on turning a description into a prescription/command to be obeyed. One church one city, for example, is a classic.

Nell

Amazing! Thanks Nell!
These was my recent topics.
One young sister is convinced to celebrate Sabbath. She used Gen. 2.3-4. I had some felling that it was not a case. There was :
Gen.2.3 And God blessed the seventh day, and hallowed it; because that in it he rested from all his work which God had created and made.
We do not see anywhere prescription to celebrate it. Reason to celebrate for Jewish was explained by Moses. But it was centuries later.
But this recognition is very helpful for me. I could not name it. Small thing but now it is clear.

I study now ten virgins. This matter of leafs is very crucial.
For now I follow all of You to see something more than in footnotes.

[Robert]

Originally Posted by Bible-believer

I never agreed with LR's overcomer- theory.

Can You describe in few words what You meant by this?
I was not so absorbing these truths. My memory can be short but I thought that leafs was only for nations.

[Bible-believer]

Originally Posted by Robert

Can You describe in few words what You meant by this?
I was not so absorbing these truths. My memory can be short but I thought that leafs was only for nations.

In my post I said,

Originally Posted by Bible-believer

Now, every place we find this “tree of life” in the Bible, it is a means of obtaining eternal life; and its “partaking” is based on works, not on grace.
For example, Revelation 22:14 says, “Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.”

Rev. 22:2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

We are told that a man has to “keep the commandments” to partake of the tree of life. And the context shows “the leaves of the tree of life were for the healing of the nations.”

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Bible-believer

--------
---------
Trapped and I talked about the "tree of life" in STG's post. We talked about who needed to eat it.

I believe we, Christians, don't need to eat the tree of life, for we have the Eternal Life already. In my post, I listed verses for my stand.

We Christians normally speak of the Bread of Life. Jesus referred to Himself as the bread of life, the bread from heaven, the reality of the manna given by God to the Israelites in the wilderness (e.g. John 6). The Bible, the Word of God, is also referred to as the bread of life.

Yet the Bible is interesting. It begins and ends with the Tree of Life. Book-ended in between is manna and the real manna, the Bread of Life.

Now I'm not some tenured theologian, but I do see some connection here. We have man - eating, obeying, believing, living by some heavenly food - and we have God, in both the bread of life and the tree of life.

[Bible-believer]

Originally Posted by Nell

It might be helpful, on another topic, to determine how many of Witness Lee’s teachings are based on turning a description into a prescription/command to be obeyed. One church one city, for example, is a classic.

Nell

Well, you reminded me of a Bible teacher who once said that every verse has three applications: Historical, doctrinal, and spiritual.
I think Lee's problem was not merely mixing up descriptive and prescriptive. He twisted the words and forced them to fit his "doctrinal" interpretation or opinions, and that's chaotic.
For example, James 1:1 Lee's remark said,

The tribes of Israel. This indicates that this Epistle was written to the Jewish Christians, who had the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ of glory (James 2:1) and were justified by faith (James 2:24), regenerated by the word of truth (v. 18), and indwelt by the Spirit of God (James 4:5), and who were members of the church (James 5:14), awaiting the Lord's coming back (James 5:7-8). However, for the writer to call these believers in Christ "the twelve tribes," as God's chosen people were called in His Old Testament economy, might indicate that he lacked a clear view concerning the distinction between Christians and Jews, between God's New Testament economy and the Old Testament dispensation. Perhaps he did not see that in the New Testament God had delivered and separated the Jewish believers in Christ from the Jewish people, who were then considered by God a perverse generation (Acts 2:40). In His New Testament economy, God does not consider the Jewish believers to be Jews set apart for Judaism but Christians set apart for the church. As members of the church of God, they should be as distinct and separate from the Jews as they are from the Gentiles (1 Cor. 10:32). Yet James, a pillar of the church, in his Epistle to the Christian brothers still called them "the twelve tribes." (This might have been the reason that he addressed the word in James 5:1-6 to the rich class in general among the Jews.) This was contrary to God's New Testament economy. See note James 2:21.

But the verse says, "James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting."

Are the 12 tribes equal to Jewish Christian? Why didn't Lee stick to the verse itself?

And the interesting part is Lee interpreted the 12 tribes as Jewish Christians, then blamed James for lacking a clear view between Christians and Jews, between God's NT economy and the OT dispensation.

Well, I am looking forward to the day when Lee meets James. James would ask Lee, "Why did you change my words and then blame me for your interpretation?"

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by Bible-believer

Rev. 2:7 says, “He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.”

This is the first promise to the “overcomer.”
Are we, Christians, overcomers? According to 1John 4:4, 5:4-5, we are.

1John 4:4 says, “Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.”
1John 5:4-5 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

But do we, Christians, need to eat the tree of life to get eternal life?

Now, every place we find this “tree of life” in the Bible, it is a means of obtaining eternal life; and its “partaking” is based on works, not on grace.
For example, Revelation 22:14 says, “Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.”

Rev. 22:2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

We are told that a man has to “keep the commandments” to partake of the tree of life. And the context shows “the leaves of the tree of life were for the healing of the nations.”

Question: Are we Christians or nations?

We are Christians. And according to the Scripture, how do Christians get eternal life? We get eternal life by believing in Jesus Christ and trusting Him as our Savior. Not by eating the tree of life.

We read in verses:

[verses about eternal life by believing in Jesus]

The “tree of life,” as we find it in Revelation 2, 21–22, is always a reference to a tree that people get life out of by coming to it and eating. They receive this right to come and eat by works, “by doing the commandments.” Therefore, Revelation 2:7 cannot apply doctrinally to a Christian.

There are three groups of people in the Bible: The Gentiles, the Jews, and the Body.

Although 2Tim 3:16 says, "All scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness." But for the doctrine application, we have to discern carefully. For example, under the 10 Commandments, Jews have to observe the Sabbath; do we, Christians, need to? Or are we under the 10 Commandments?

LR misapplies doctrines to the three groups and causes confusion. Overcomer theory is one of them.

Thanks for your explanation of your thoughts on this topic!

Based on your assumptions, I understand the logic/reasoning behind your conclusion, but I've got a couple responses and questions about a few things.

I see and agree that the leaves are for the healing of the nations, but that same verse also says that the tree of life bears 12 different kinds of fruit every month. (uh....how cool is that?!)

Revelation 22:1-2
1 Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, as clear as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb
2 down the middle of the great street of the city. On each side of the river stood the tree of life, bearing twelve crops of fruit, yielding its fruit every month. And the leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations.

The leaves may be for the nations, but I don't think the fruits are also for the nations. The fruits seem to me to be for the believers. This matches up with the verse you provided from Revelation 2:7.

Revelation 2:7
Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To the one who is victorious/overcomes, I will give the right to eat from the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God.

That verse was written to the churches....to the believers who overcome. You also affirm that based on 1 John, we Christians are overcomers, so we believers at a minimum to get to eat of the tree of life, even if we don't yet know if we need to eat of it. I'm not aware of overcomers who are not believers.

Here you then asked the question if we Christians need to eat of the tree of life to get eternal life, and then explain that eating of the tree of life is a matter of doing His commandments, which is a matter of works, not of grace.

That's the point where I'm not sure I agree, because what springs to my mind immediately are the numerous times in the New Testament that we, the believers, are told to keep His commandments.

John 14:15
If you love me, keep my commandments.

John 14:23-24a
23 Jesus replied, “Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them.
24 Anyone who does not love me will not obey my teaching....

John 15:9-14
9 “As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love.
10 If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commands and remain in his love.
11 I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete.
12 My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you.
13 Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one’s life for one’s friends.
14 You are my friends if you do what I command.

Revelation 12:17
Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring—those who keep God’s commandment and hold fast their testimony about Jesus.

1 John 5:1-5
1 Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves the father loves his child as well.
2 This is how we know that we love the children of God: by loving God and carrying out his commands.
3 In fact, this is love for God: to keep his commands. And his commands are not burdensome,
4 for everyone born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith.
5 Who is it that overcomes the world? Only the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God.

2 John 1:5-6
5 And now, dear lady, I am not writing you a new command but one we have had from the beginning. I ask that we love one another.
6 And this is love: that we walk in obedience to his commands. As you have heard from the beginning, his command is that you walk in love.

1 Corinthians 7:17-20
17 But as God hath distributed to every man, as the Lord hath called every one, so let him walk. And so ordain I in all churches.
18 Is any man called being circumcised? let him not become uncircumcised. Is any called in uncircumcision? let him not be circumcised.
19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.
20 Let every man abide in the same calling wherein he was called.

1 John 2:4
Whoever says “I know him” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him,

The order of events, if you will, is not "I kept His commands, therefore I am saved", it's more "you have believed in Jesus Christ, and if you do love the One who saved you, you will keep His commands." The doing and keeping of His commandments are not the requirement for salvation, but the evidence or natural fruit of salvation.

When the verses refer to someone who "does/keeps His commandments" I think they are simply referring to a genuine believer. Someone who is really saved, believes Jesus is the Christ and that God had raised Him from the dead, loves Him, and therefore does His commandments - which are to love God and love people.

I agree we are Christians, and 100% agree with all the verses you included that we get eternal life by believing in Jesus and trusting Him as our Savior. I just think there are reasonable grounds, based on the tree of life being at the beginning in Genesis ("lest they eat and live forever") and then once again in Revelation in the New Jerusalem, that the tree of life is the means by which we have eternal life. Jesus died for us so the punishment of being banned from the tree of life would be lifted, and we would once again "have the right to the tree of life." Jesus died for us, we believe in Him, and we thus have right to eat of the tree of life.

Of course, the tree of life is shown in the garden to be watered by the river of life which proceeds out from the throne of God. Maybe the proceeding from the throne is just all symbolism for eternal life.

I will note, however, that Jesus never claims to be the tree of life. He says He is the bread of life and He says He is the water of life. But He never says He is the tree of life.

I'll caveat all I've written by saying that obviously Revelation is a complex book and I'm not even close to being an expert.....this could all be symbolic. I'm not submitting arguments to try to convince you of anything; I'm just exchanging my thoughts in return for yours!

Trapped

[Bible-believer]

Originally Posted by Trapped

Here you then asked the question if we Christians need to eat of the tree of life to get eternal life, and then explain that eating of the tree of life is a matter of doing His commandments, which is a matter of works, not of grace.

That's the point where I'm not sure I agree, because what springs to my mind immediately are the numerous times in the New Testament that we, the believers, are told to keep His commandments.

Sorry I didn't make it clear. When I said, "work and grace," I meant the way of Salvation. Christians get eternal life by believing in Jesus Christ but not "eating the tree of life." But the tribulation saints and Millennial saints are not Church Age saints, and how do they get eternal life? I think they get it from eating the tree of life. And because they are not Church Age saints, they need to keep the commandments and have faith in Jesus Christ to be granted the right (as a reward) to get it.

As to the 12 manners of fruits, I think it connects with 12 gates, 12 months, and 12 boundaries. But I am still on the way to figuring it out. May God grant me wisdom for understanding his words.

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by Bible-believer

Sorry I didn't make it clear. When I said, "work and grace," I meant the way of Salvation. Christians get eternal life by believing in Jesus Christ but not "eating the tree of life." But the tribulation saints and Millennial saints are not Church Age saints, and how do they get eternal life? I think they get it from eating the tree of life. And because they are not Church Age saints, they need to keep the commandments and have faith in Jesus Christ to be granted the right (as a reward) to get it.

As to the 12 manners of fruits, I think it connects with 12 gates, 12 months, and 12 boundaries. But I am still on the way to figuring it out. May God grant me wisdom for understanding his words.

I don't think I understand the distinction you are making here between the types of saints or the ways they get eternal life. It seems like you are saying church age saints get eternal life by believing in Jesus, but tribulation & millennial saints get eternal life from eating the tree of life.

Can you explain further and how you came to that conclusion? I think I'm missing a connection or some information.

Thanks,

Trapped

[Raptor]

Originally Posted by OBW

Mostly true. However, in the context of the teachings of the LC, these are all colored with Lee/Nee-colored glasses. Everything is understood with the overlay of the LC as the current manifestation of the kingdom that is virtually the only place in which such overcoming can occur. So with no context, you have said little because it is mostly just quoting scripture with no real, meaningful comment. Add the context and you stoke the fears instilled by years of LC dogma. As uncommented quoting, don't bother posting. As subterfuge to stoke old LC fears, we see it for what it is and refuse to buckle.

"so My word that proceeds from My mouth will not return to Me empty, but it will accomplish what I please, and it will prosper where I send it." Isaiah 55:11.

[Raptor]

Originally Posted by Nell

Raptor, Check your reference. Revelation 3 in my Bible only has 22 verses.

It´s obviously a typo, the verse is Revelation 2:23.

[Raptor]

Originally Posted by OBW

Raptor, Further to my last post, saying "don't throw out the bread with the leaven" could be the equivalent of saying "don't throw out the world with the kingdom." Thinking particularly of the parable in which the kingdom is "like leaven" which uses leaven as the kingdom and the dough as something other than the kingdom. In that case, you don't want to throw out the leaven. You want to add more of it.

Leaven is negative.

[Raptor]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

No one preached and warned about the Kingdom of God more than the apostle Paul. No one exhorted and encouraged others more concerning the Kingdom of God than the apostle Paul. But his focus did not seem to be set on the future Kingdom of God...

Oh yes he did! Paul countless times made references focusing on the future Kingdom, expressed in different ways and aspects, but all related to the same thing:

IN ROMANS

And we rejoice in the hope of the glory of God. 5:2.

For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive an abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ! 5:17.

But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves to God, the fruit you reap leads to holiness, and the outcome is eternal life. 6:22.

And if we are children, then we are heirs: heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ—if indeed we suffer with Him, so that we may also be glorified with Him. 8:17.

I consider that our present sufferings are not comparable to the glory that will be revealed in us. 8:18

The creation waits in eager expectation for the revelation of the sons of God. 8:19.

Not only that, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. 8:23.

But if we hope for what we do not yet see, we wait for it patiently. 8:25

And those He predestined, He also called; those He called, He also justified; those He justified, He also glorified. 8:30.

What if He did this to make the riches of His glory known to the vessels of His mercy, whom He prepared in advance for glory. 9:23

The hour has come for you to wake up from your slumber, for our salvation is nearer now than when we first believed. The night is nearly over; the day has drawn near. 13:11,12.

Why, then, do you judge your brother? Or why do you belittle your brother? For we will all stand before God’s judgment seat. 14:10.

So then, each of us will give an account of himself to God. 14:12.

And once more, Isaiah says: “The Root of Jesse will appear, One who will arise to rule over the Gentiles; in Him the Gentiles will put their hope. 15:12.

[Raptor]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

No one preached and warned about the Kingdom of God more than the apostle Paul. No one exhorted and encouraged others more concerning the Kingdom of God than the apostle Paul. But his focus did not seem to be set on the future Kingdom of God...

Oh yes he did! Paul countless times made references focusing on the future Kingdom, expressed in different ways and aspects, but all related to the same thing:

IN 1 CORINTHIANS

He will sustain you to the end, so that you will be blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. 1:8

No, we speak of the mysterious and hidden wisdom of God, which He destined for our glory before time began. 2:7

Rather, as it is written: “No eye has seen, no ear has heard, no heart has imagined, what God has prepared for those who love Him.” 2:9

If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, or straw, 13his workmanship will be evident, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will prove the quality of each man’s work. 14If what he has built survives, he will receive a reward. 15If it is burned up, he will suffer loss. He himself will be saved, but only as if through the flames. 3:12-15

Therefore judge nothing before the appointed time; wait until the Lord comes. He will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will expose the motives of men’s hearts. At that time each will receive his praise from God. 4:5

hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved on the Day of the Lord. 5:5

Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who submit to or perform homosexual acts, 10nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor verbal abusers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. 6:9-10

By His power God raised the Lord from the dead, and He will raise us also. 6:14

What I am saying, brothers, is that the time is short. From now on those who have wives should live as if they had none; 30those who weep, as if they did not; those who are joyful, as if they were not; those who make a purchase, as if they had nothing; 31and those who use the things of this world, as if not dependent on them. For this world in its present form is passing away. 7:29-31

Do you not know that in a race all the runners run, but only one receives the prize? Run in such a way as to take the prize. 25Everyone who competes in the games trains with strict discipline. They do it for a crown that is perishable, but we do it for a crown that is imperishable. 9:24-25

Then the end will come, when He hands over the kingdom to God the Father after He has destroyed all dominion, authority, and power. 25For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. 26The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 15:24-26

Now these things happened to them as examples and were written down as warnings for us, on whom the fulfillment of the ages has come. 10:11

Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be restrained; where there is knowledge, it will be dismissed. 9For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10but when the perfect comes, the partial passes away. 13:8-10

Now we see but a dim reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known. 13:12

If our hope in Christ is for this life alone, we are to be pitied more than all men. 15:19

For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23But each in his own turn: Christ the firstfruits; then at His coming, those who belong to Him. 15:22-23

Then the end will come, when He hands over the kingdom to God the Father after He has destroyed all dominion, authority, and power. 25For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. 26The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 15:24-26

And when all things have been subjected to Him, then the Son Himself will be made subject to Him who put all things under Him, so that God may be all in all. 15:28

So will it be with the resurrection of the dead: What is sown is perishable; it is raised imperishable. 43It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness; it is raised in power. 44It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 15:42-44

And just as we have borne the likeness of the earthly man, so also shall we bear the likeness of the heavenly man. 15:49

Now I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 15:50

Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52in an instant, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53For the perishable must be clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come to pass: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.” 55“Where, O Death, is your victory? Where, O Death, is your sting?” 15:51-55

[Raptor]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

No one preached and warned about the Kingdom of God more than the apostle Paul. No one exhorted and encouraged others more concerning the Kingdom of God than the apostle Paul. But his focus did not seem to be set on the future Kingdom of God...

Oh yes he did! Paul countless times made references focusing on the future Kingdom, expressed in different ways and aspects, but all related to the same thing:

IN 2 CORINTHIANS

And I hope that you will understand us completely, 14as you have already understood us in part, so that you may boast of us just as we will boast of you in the day of our Lord Jesus. 1:14.

He anointed us, 22placed His seal on us, and put His Spirit in our hearts as a pledge of what is to come. 1:22.

knowing that the One who raised the Lord Jesuse will also raise us with Jesus and present us with you in His presence. 4:14.

For our light and momentary affliction is producing for us an eternal glory that is far beyond comparison. 4:17.

Now we know that if the earthly tent we live in is dismantled, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands. 2For in this tent we groan, longing to be clothed with our heavenly dwelling5:1-3.

So while we are in this tent, we groan under our burdens, because we do not wish to be unclothed but clothed, so that our mortality may be swallowed up by life. 5And God has prepared us for this very purpose and has given us the Spirit as a pledge of what is to come. 5:4-5.

For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive his due for the things done in the body, whether good or bad. 5:10.

I am jealous for you with a godly jealousy. For I promised you to one husband, to present you as a pure virgin to Christ. 11:2.

[UntoHim]

***Let's review and maybe wrap this one up***

Originally Posted by Zezima

Is there any validity to this doctrine in the LR? It feels like a works based salvation, and did nothing but make me personally anxious / pursue God out of fear I’d be left in the outer darkness. I’ve since broken free of it, or at least refuse to believe it as it seems to contradict the gospel. It’s such a focal point in the LR and it’s the motivation of a lot of members Christian lives. Can we break this doctrine down? What if any validity does it have?
How can someone who’s been saved by Grace, still not be accepted by God? It doesn’t make sense.

Originally Posted by Trapped

From the little time I've spent looking into what the Bible says about overcomers/overcoming, this seems to be what we should hang our hat on. Overcomers are simply genuine believers, born of God. Any overcoming we do is because of what Jesus did. He's overcome the world, and we overcome the accuser because of the blood of the Lamb (Rev. 12:11).

Originally Posted by GraceAlone

I don’t know what to make anymore of the entire Overcomer theology, but I do know the fruit of it. I spent most of my life with a sense of dread hanging over me that I was probably not an Overcomer (despite trying to do all the things) and that the Lord was constantly disappointed in me for failing to reach this unknown and rather elitist Overcomer standard. As I detox, I’m coming to see that this robs many many saints of their joy and freedom in Christ and what He has already done for us out of His great love and grace.

Originally Posted by Zezima

It causes anxiety in a lot of saints. I’ve seen saints completely abandon the faith because they committed certain sins and thus according to the LR are disqualified for the banquet feast. I’ve seen saints who are in crippling fear that they won’t make it, and their entire Christian pursuit is motivated by being an overcomer.
For me personally, I felt that the only reason I pursued God was so that I could be an overcomer. Using God in order to attain something, how sad now.

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

As I've shared on here a number of times, when I was in the Recovery, I heard that God had a purpose and would get it no matter what. And while there is truth to that, it was conveyed as God was like a steamroller, who would flatten you if you got in His way. Many instances of saints leaving the Recovery were conveyed, where God supposedly judged them for that. A sense of fear prevailed because of teachings like this, and also teachings that believers might be severely punished for a thousand years, if we weren't "overcomers" according to the standard way that was being taught.

Originally Posted by Ohio

Like any aberrant Bible teaching, there is always a certain amount of scripture to support it. Witness Lee made "overcomers" an elite class of believers, where the Bible does not. That set us up to be manipulated by him. Being a ministry "overcomer" was never related to actual struggles in trials, but absolute allegiance to his ministry. Being "one with the ministry" and "being absolute for WL's burden" goes back to my earliest days in the mid 70's.
So this "overcomer" teaching turned the most zealous of the bro/sis's into ardent man-pleasers, willing to do all things to please the MOTA. It sowed endless suspicions among the brothers about who is and who is not adequately "one with the ministry." Survival thus required a "good show" in front of others, and rivalries to suck up to Witness Lee.

Originally Posted by Bible-believer

One characteristic of the LR is exclusivity.
This morning a brother talked about the "overcomer."
He quoted from the Morning Revival "When the testimony of the church in the Lord's recovery is matured, the Lord Jesus will return."
I said there were overcomers in other churches, too. And he said it would be rare and hard for they were not in the Oneness; they were divisions.
I asked further if they were in the "Body." He hesitated. Then he said, "let God judge it."
I asked further how could you be so sure the LR was the "oneness?" or you would say, "let God judge it."
I could continue asking questions like this, but I wouldn't. I realize it's useless discussing or arguing with saints who are so into LR. Not until when they wake up from that hobbyhorse.

Originally Posted by Raptor

Because there are many judgements from God, for different kinds of people, at different times The 2 main judgements are :
1.) Judgment at the Great White Throne (Rev. 20:11).
A person who has received Christ as their Savior will NOT have to face this judgement, the blood of Jesus has cleansed them from EVERY sin, they have eternal life, and will be in the New Jerusalem for eternity.
2.) Judgement Seat of Christ (2 Cor. 5:10).
A person who has received Christ as their Savior will have to face this judgement, to give an account of his life, living, works, unconfessed sins, etc. It will be determined whether they enter the joy and glory of the Lord in the millenial kingdom.
Believing in Christ, victorious over #1, does NOT automatically grant you to be victorious at #2.

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Brothers and sisters, what is the fruit of the teachings of Watchman Nee and Witness Lee regarding the Kingdom of God and the Kingdom of the heavens and the so-called "Overcomers"? Have these teachings produced a people who have the heart, attitude and mindset of our Lord Jesus Christ, or even those of the apostle Paul? What have these teachings produced in the current leadership in the Local Church movement - the "Blended Brothers", or "The Co-Workers in the Lord's Recovery in North America"? What is the heart, attitude and mindset displayed by these men over the past number of years in dealing with many dear saints who have expressed legitimate concerns and heartfelt consternation regarding a myriad issues - issues that deserve to be addressed properly, publicly and immediately. The saints in the Local Churches are waiting. Families are waiting. The Christian public is waiting. The Lord is waiting.

[Nell]

Agreed. Not much new in the discussion at this point.

Nell

[Raptor]

There is a wedding coming, are we ready?

The kingdom of the heavens has become like a king who prepared a wedding feast for his son... Matthew 22:2.

NOT READY
But when the king came in to look at those reclining at table, he saw there a man who was not clothed with a wedding garment, And he said to him, Friend, how did you come in here without a wedding garment? And he was speechless. Then the king said to the servants, Bind his feet and hands, and cast him out into the outer darkness. In that place there will be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth. Matthew 22:11-13.

READY
For the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His bride has made herself ready. She was given clothing of fine linen, bright and pure.” For the fine linen she wears is the righteous acts of the saints. Revelation 19:7,8.

[Russian95]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

The real problem is not that Witness Lee taught that there will be reward and punishment for believers, (the Bible clearly teaches this) the problem is that he taught, in so many words, that the reward and punishment is going to be based upon how one treated his person and his work. If one did not fully accept his authority as the One Minister, the sole Oracle of God on earth, and fully accept his ministry as the One Ministry for the Age, they were never going to be an overcomer.

For confirmation, I submit a direct quote from Mr. Benson Philipps, President of the Living Stream Ministry:
“In any case, do not leave the Lord’s recovery. I can assure you that if you go away from the Lord’s recovery, you will have no way for the process of sanctification to go forward within you. Instead, you will just enter into a bankrupt situation. I know of no one who has left the Lord’s recovery and today is a great spiritual person on the earth. The sanctification process is carried out in the Lord’s recovery”
(The Ministry Magazine Vol. 8, No. 1 Page 189, first paragraph)

This statement is not surprising at all to any of us who spend any significant time in the Local Church of Witness Lee. If one leaves their tiny little, insignificant personality cult, not only will they never be an overcomer, they won't even be able to have "the process of sanctification" go forward within them. And they wonder why people call the Local Church a cult.
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Do you by chance have a copy or scan of that Ministry Magazine volume where Benson Philips declares that only those in the "church life" can become overcomers? I need it as a reference and can't seem to find it anywhere.

Thanks!

[UntoHim]

I used to have the actual paperback version, but have long since lost it. I suppose it might be possible to search through the Living Stream Ministry website and find it? Once problem might be is that LSM has consolidated/rearranged a number of publications, and in some cases, have changed the titles. Good luck!
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[Sons to Glory!]

If I may, I'd like to add something to this thread that I don't know was covered before. Recently, we went through the letters to the 7 churches at the beginning of Revelation, and it was really good. The letter to Philadelphia spoke like never before and it directly pertains to overcoming.

The key point I took away from this letter was basically this - they had but a little strength, however they were faithful in the basics; matters of love, keeping His word and not denying His name. Therefore the Lord counted them as being on the mark (they already had a crown) and promised them something special - an open door (think wise virgins) and keeping them from the hour of trial coming on the whole earth! The Lord puts His seal of approval there - these guys aren't super-saints, they are just walking in the main focus: LOVE.

This letter is packed with many special things they inherit including the kingdom, the temple of God (His people), having God's name and the city's name written on them, etc. These believers hit the mark by simply being faithful in just the few key things the Lord desires of us - keeping His word/name, loving God and each other . . . and that is counted as overcoming.

[Bible-believer]

Originally Posted by Russian95

Do you by chance have a copy or scan of that Ministry Magazine volume where Benson Philips declares that only those in the "church life" can become overcomers? I need it as a reference and can't seem to find it anywhere.

Thanks!

For your reference

THE PROPER CONDITION OF THE OVERCOMERS
One Body, One Spirit, and One New Man,
by Witness Lee

THE PROPER CONDITION OF THE OVERCOMERS
Brothers and sisters, in conclusion I would like to say that if you would like to be a top Christian, you must be a Christian in the churches of the Lord’s recovery. You must also learn to live in the Body and not ever be individualistic. Furthermore, you must also understand that the churches in the Lord’s recovery on the entire earth are just one new man. Never be individualistic, and never be divisive; instead, be in the one Body and in the one new man. Moreover, in everything and in every matter in your living you must also continuously follow what the Spirit within you is speaking to the churches. Simply put, you must follow the Spirit, live in the Body, and live in the new man. This is our way today. Whatever would cause you to be separated from the Body is heretical. Whatever would cause you not to live in the new man is also an error. Whatever is not spoken by the Spirit within you is conceived only in your own mind. We must see the one Body, the one Spirit, and the one new man. We all need to hear what the Spirit within us is speaking to the churches today.

Moreover, we should always live in the Body, never being individualistic. We should never separate from the Body or divide the Body. Instead, we should continuously live in the new man. By this way I believe there will be a ninety percent possibility that we can be overcomers. One Body and one new man and one Spirit. We should always listen to and follow the Spirit.