Overcomer Doctrine (Merged Thread)

[Zezima]

How can there be Christian punishment if the blood of Jesus cleanses you from EVERY sin?

[UntoHim]

I think your answer, my friend, might be found in parable of the talents, which immediately follows the parable of the 10 virgins. The one servant who was entrusted with the one talent, did not "sin" against the master per se. He did not steal the talent. He did not give the talent away. He did not lose the talent. But he did not invest the talent so that the master could reap the profits from the investment.

So, in the end, the servant was not punished for the sin of stealing or losing the talent, he was punished for not taking the valuable gift which was entrusted to him gaining a profit for the master.
-

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Zezima

How can there be Christian punishment if the blood of Jesus cleanses you from EVERY sin?

Do you have to confess, repent and ask for forgiveness for EVERY sin, or does genuine salvation cover EVERY sin you will ever commit thereafter? Or, once saved, do you get your ticket punched and don’t have to worry about sin anymore? Live like the devil is okay because you are a Christian? Paul addresses this:

1 Cor. 5:1 It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife. 2 And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.

3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed, 4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

6 Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump? 7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us: 8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators: 10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world. 11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat. 12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within? 13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.

Looks like punishment of a Christian and a rebuke to Christians who tolerated gross sin among them.

Nell

[Ohio]

Concerning the 1,000 year kingdom, during which some of us may or may not have the same outcome, think about the early Apostles - they have already been waiting 2,000 years. O.T. saints so much longer! With that perspective, the time frame seems more equitable.

Also, the Bible speaks of ripening "fruits," mentioning some as "first fruits." I think this millennial period of time is needed for many of God's children to "ripen," and some will take much longer than others, and that's why the Bible continually exhorts us to be ready, to watch, and be prepared.

Consider how many Christians will readily accept the "mark of the beast," which the Bible clearly warns us about. Those who refuse will be societal outcasts and enemies of the state like today's unvaxxed and worse - most will face the loss of all possessions, starvation, homelessness, imprisonment, etc. Perhaps it is these suffering ones who will be the real "overcomers," refusing to worship the beast, even unto death.

[Zezima]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Consider how many Christians will readily accept the "mark of the beast," which the Bible clearly warns us about. Those who refuse will be societal outcasts and enemies of the state like today's unvaxxed and worse - most will face the loss of all possessions, starvation, homelessness, imprisonment, etc. Perhaps it is these suffering ones who will be the real "overcomers," refusing to worship the beast, even unto death.

Does it warn us? Or does it warn a specific group of people that the letter was written to at a specific time?

Did John John really write a letter in 98 AD to the saints in 2021 about a vaccine? Why didn’t he write about driver’s license, or SS#’s? Seems myopic, how many vaccines have been mandated since it’s time of writing? How many government mandates across the world have occurred since then? But surely John meant the covid vaccine /s


Anyways, not to go off topic here. So if a Christian can take the mark of the beast, and lose salvation, how powerful then is the blood of Christ really?

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Zezima

How can there be Christian punishment if the blood of Jesus cleanses you from EVERY sin?

I may be the only one on here expressing this view, but I think "punishment" is too strong a word. I believe the preponderance of verses that apply don't have to do so much with punishment as they do with loss of reward. The blood of Christ is completely efficacious, but there is accountability for what what Christians did after salvation, that is, their works. While there may be some passages that seem to imply some sort of punishment for Christians, what I've come to see is that it's more about the loss of a reward.

(To clarify, we get redeemed and born of God and that redemption is sure! And then we do whatever we will, but there is accountability for what God's children do: "For we must all appear before the [bema] seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad." 2 Cor. 5:10)

One doesn't normally get punished for not winning a prize (unless maybe in certain communist countries). Yet there are consequences for not winning. All Christians' works will be tested - as in 1st Corinthians 3 where is says that what we are building with will be tested by fire. If what we've built with is not according to what He deems to be proper materials, our works will be burned-up, yet the person will be saved. "If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire." 1 Cor 3:15

Paul also speaks about running a race in several places, as does Hebrews (12:1). What happens if you don't run well in a race . . . do you get punished? Well, in a manner of speaking, there is the personal distress of not winning the prize (a lot could be said about the various reasons a believer may feel considerable angst about this). But the contest's judge does not usually whip those who lost the race . . .

[Zezima]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

One doesn't normally get punished for not winning a prize (unless maybe in certain communist countries). Yet there are consequences for not winning.

So what does winning look like it entail?

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Zezima

So what does winning look like it entail?

Good question! I think we often believe we have to be a super-saint, but the Lord tells the faithful servant in Matthew 25, "Well done good and faithful servant - you have ben faithful in a FEW things." And if you look at Hebrews chapter 11, the "Faith Chapter," you see that the ones listed were not necessarily acting like super-saints all the time . . . there were many failings. My belief is that the Lord will impress on us the few things to be faithful in. (I have 4 specific things I know I need to be faithful in.)

[Raptor]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

... but I think "punishment" is too strong a word. I believe the preponderance of verses that apply don't have to do so much with punishment as they do with loss of reward.

(To clarify, we get redeemed and born of God and that redemption is sure! And then we do whatever we will, but there is accountability for what God's children do: "For we must all appear before the [bema] seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad." 2 Cor. 5:10). One doesn't normally get punished for not winning a prize[/I]

There are many verses that show not only loss of reward but also discipline and/or punishment for believers. We also have many cases, both in the Old T. and New T. concerning D and P. Entire chapters, books and accounts. And it´s relative, there is a large range, depending on every case....

Concerning the metaphorical use of a competition there is a third aspect you are not including:

1.) win = reward
2.) not win = lose reward
3.) cheat = discipline or punishment

Yes, maybe no punishment for not winning a prize, but surely punishment for behaving bad.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Raptor

There are many verses that show not only loss of reward but also discipline and/or punishment. We also have many cases, both in the Old T. and New T. concerning D and P. Entire chapters, books and accounts. And it´s relative, there is a large range, depending on every case....

Concerning the metaphorical use of a competition there is a third aspect you are not including:

1.) win = reward
2.) not win = lose reward
3.) cheat = discipline or punishment

Yes, maybe no punishment for not winning a prize, but surely punishment for behaving bad.

Does 1 Cor. 5:5 sound like punishment?

“5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.”

Punishment has a purpose…that the spirit might be saved.

Nell

[Raptor]

Originally Posted by Nell

Does 1 Cor. 5:5 sound like punishment? “5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.” Punishment has a purpose…that the spirit might be saved.

I believe God always has the good intention and purpose to restore His children and bring them on to full salvation. It just depends how you define the words, "discipline" and "punishment." Moses disobeyed the Lord and missed the entrance to the good land. That seems more on the side of discipline. The wicked servant in Matthew 24 seems to get more on the side of punishment. "The master of that servant will come on a day he does not expect and at an hour he does not anticipate. Then he will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites." (50-51).

"Punishment, commonly, is the imposition of an undesirable or unpleasant outcome upon a group or individual, meted out by an authority—in contexts ranging from child discipline to criminal law—as a response and deterrent to a particular action or behavior that is deemed undesirable or unacceptable."

[Zezima]

Originally Posted by Raptor

I believe God always has the good intention and purpose to restore His children and bring them on to full salvation. It just depends how you define the words, "discipline" and "punishment." Moses disobeyed the Lord and missed the entrance to the good land. That seems more on the side of discipline. The wicked servant in Matthew 24 seems to get more on the side of punishment. "The master of that servant will come on a day he does not expect and at an hour he does not anticipate. Then he will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites." (50-51).

"Punishment, commonly, is the imposition of an undesirable or unpleasant outcome upon a group or individual, meted out by an authority—in contexts ranging from child discipline to criminal law—as a response and deterrent to a particular action or behavior that is deemed undesirable or unacceptable."

In the context of this thread, scroll down for how we define discipline.

[Nell]

There's also the matter of "punishment" and/or "discipline" at the hands of the "elders" in the Local Churches of Witness Lee. The "overcomer" teaching was used, and as some have noted, is still used as a threat to control the behavior of the membership.

Years ago, I was called into a "little dark room" as I came to know it, by 5 men who were called "elders" and I was "disciplined." I was terrified that night. I was filled with a fear that influenced my walk with the Lord for years after it happened.

I didn't understand their accusations against me. Even thought I didn't understand what was happening, I apologized and repented...surely I had done something wrong...so I assumed that I was in the wrong. I was too scared not to go along with their accusations.

My accusers, a couple I was living with, never actually confronted me before going to the "elders". Some of the accusations against me were false. Some were accusations of not doing things that were not my responsibility to do. i.e., "You made a pregnant sister walk to the meeting." She, in fact, never asked for a ride...never told me it was my responsibility to provide transportation for her. I would have been happy to help, had I known help was needed. Why didn't she just ask for a ride? Just let me know she needed a ride?

Why was this a matter for the "elders" to get involved? The "elders" should have told my accusers to talk to me. Rather, they took the opportunity to discipline and punish me.

I thought I was going to drop dead, literally. I was terrified by their treatment of me. I was gripped by what I now believe was a demonic fear...at the instigation by LC leadership. I thought there would be young men waiting outside the door to take my dead body away.

They told me to go somewhere and spend the rest of the night, or however long it took, to bare my soul to the Lord and clear up my horrible sinful behavior. The shame they had heaped on me was almost unbearable.

I went to a nearby park and, for safety, I hid myself. I began to pray and ask the Lord for guidance on what I had been accused of. A strange thing occurred. I didn't cry...I couldn't cry. I was calm. I tried to "confess". I did what the "elders" told me to do. There was nothing from the Lord. Nothing. I wondered if I was so bad that not even God would talk to me anymore. I didn't feel his absence. I felt his presence. No fear. Eventually, I just went home.

***

It wasn't until years later that I understood the reason God did not talk to me that night: He did not condemn me. My accusers accused me. The "elders" accused and condemned me, but God did not.

For years after that, I was driven by fear...not of godly fear, but fear of the "elders". I was afraid I would be ambushed again. I sat in the meetings and cried. Yes! I still went to the meetings! How bizzare is that?

***

Eventually, 4 of those 5 men gave all the membership the opportunity to talk with them and say whatever we needed to say. (Wow! They actually asked for feedback?)

I brought this event to their attention and asked why ... ? I told them what life had been like for me. I told them that their accusations didn't make sense to me...I didn't understand. I told them I had no idea they had a problem with me, until I was ambushed by them.

They apologized and admitted they were wrong. Four out of five repented. Whaaattt? Yep. The other one was not there, and never repented.

I don't know if this kind of thing still happens. It does confirm that God did not condemn me that night. It was a group of 5 men who admitted they were wrong.

By the way, one woman should NEVER be alone in a room with five men, for any reason. One woman should NEVER be alone in a room with ONE man who is not her husband.

I hope this helps someone. I feel sure I was not the only one who was terrified by the unrighteous discipline and punishment by Local Church leadership.

Nell

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Raptor

There are many verses that show not only loss of reward but also discipline and/or punishment for believers. We also have many cases, both in the Old T. and New T. concerning D and P. Entire chapters, books and accounts. And it´s relative, there is a large range, depending on every case....

Concerning the metaphorical use of a competition there is a third aspect you are not including:

1.) win = reward
2.) not win = lose reward
3.) cheat = discipline or punishment

Yes, maybe no punishment for not winning a prize, but surely punishment for behaving bad.

Interesting #3 regarding cheating and that may need more exploring (you may have something here) . . . And yes . . . I know I didn't get "all the squirrels" up the one tree here! I was just pointing out that I think the preponderance of passages in the NT look to me to be more about gaining the reward or loss of the reward, rather than outright punishment. There are certainly passages that seem to go beyond just loss of reward, but regardless, as Nell pointed out, there is a purpose and God lovingly wants to help us and develop us fully into what He has planned.

[Raptor]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Interesting #3 regarding cheating and that may need more exploring (you may have something here) . . . And yes . . . I know I didn't get "all the squirrels" up the one tree here! I was just pointing out that I think the preponderance of passages in the NT look to me to be more about gaining the reward or loss of the reward, rather than outright punishment. There are certainly passages that seem to go beyond just loss of reward, but regardless, as Nell pointed out, there is a purpose and God lovingly wants to help us and develop us fully into what He has planned.

That is not a squirrel....that is the main point of major portions of Scripture. Entire books and chapters are about that. There are there for a reason.

On the other hand, our focus should be Christ and our deep, loving relationship with Him in subjection and obedience. It´s interesting....a believer may know all the truths about the Judgement Seat of Christ, reward/punishment, overcoming, and still miss out. Yet another believer may not be aware of all that but still enter into the joy of the Lord, "well done, good and faithful servant!"

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Raptor

It´s interesting....a believer may know all the truths about the Judgement Seat of Christ, reward/punishment, overcoming, and still miss out. Yet another believer may not be aware of all that but still enter into the joy of the Lord, "well done, good and faithful servant!"

Exactly! And I believe there's one thing we can be sure about - His amazing love in all His plans and interactions with us!

[Raptor]

Originally Posted by Zezima

How can there be Christian punishment if the blood of Jesus cleanses you from EVERY sin?

Because there are many judgements from God, for different kinds of people, at different times The 2 main judgements are :

1.) Judgment at the Great White Throne (Rev. 20:11).

A person who has received Christ as their Savior will NOT have to face this judgement, the blood of Jesus has cleansed them from EVERY sin, they have eternal life, and will be in the New Jerusalem for eternity.

2.) Judgement Seat of Christ (2 Cor. 5:10).

A person who has received Christ as their Savior will have to face this judgement, to give an account of his life, living, works, unconfessed sins, etc. It will be determined whether they enter the joy and glory of the Lord in the millenial kingdom.

Believing in Christ, victorious over #1, does NOT automatically grant you to be victorious at #2.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Raptor

Because there are many judgements from God, for different kinds of people, at different times The 2 main judgements are :

1.) Judgment at the Great White Throne (Rev. 20:11).

A person who has received Christ as their Savior will NOT have to face this judgement, the blood of Jesus has cleansed them from EVERY sin, they have eternal life, and will be in the New Jerusalem for eternity.

2.) Judgement Seat of Christ (2 Cor. 5:10).

A person who has received Christ as their Savior will have to face this judgement, to give an account of his life, living, works, unconfessed sins, etc. It will be determined whether they enter the joy and glory of the Lord in the millenial kingdom.

Believing in Christ, victorious over #1, does NOT automatically grant you to be victorious at #2.

Yes, there are many judgements from God and these two, in my mind, are the big ones for humans. When we went through the book of Revelation a couple years ago, it was eye opening for me and it put all the judgements and wrath of God into a more proper perspective. Love is the main theme of God in the Bible and that encompasses the final book, including all the judgements there. In His love, He must eradicate those things which harm us. Like a cancer, sin and death have plagued His beings with a myriad of maladies. The more cancer present, the more eradicating there must be.

So His judgments are just and helpful to us. And if we don't allow the Great Physician to cut those bad things out now, He is left with no choice but to cut them out later. And this includes Christians - after the new birth, we still can choose to take His way and let Him do His work in us or not! Therefore, I pray often, "Lord, I am willing to be made willing for you to operate in me in this area."

And I might add that I believe being faithful in those "few things" He's given each of us to do, gives Him a primary way to operate in us.