Our Journey to Elden in Jan 1971

[Elden1971]

Since I am a very slow typist I encourage anyone that desires fellowship to email me at therisenhoovers@gmail.com or send me a Private Message and I will give you further personal contact information.

My walk with the Lord began 60 years ago in Okemah Oklahoma where I experienced my first church split due to the pastor involving the members in a business that failed. Twenty years later that experience and others would keep me from involvement in the Daystar tragedy at Elden Hall. It has been erroneously reported on this forum and others that I was the accountant for Daystar. I was the accountant for many investors in Daystar and a Business Consultant to several Brothers. I was employed as an Accountant for the Los Angeles County Government and responsible for the Payroll Clearance Fund and the Joint Power Authorities. I later had increased responsibilities in Budget Report and Data Processing Departments where I created the Billing Algorithms for all 77 Departments. I also worked part time as the Controller for the Beverly College of Law and a Bar Review Course and also worked as a Business Consultant and Tax Preparer for many Brothers including Bro.Lee and Francis Ball. I can confirm that those involved in Daystar violated Federal and State Securities Law and Federal money laundering statutes. The son of one of the sisters that invested in Daystar was and still is an attorney now living in DC who advised the brothers and me of their illegal activities. Prior to the Daystar tragedy my experience at Elden Hall was one of the best times of my Life.

Our journey to Elden Hall was quite remarkable and quite sudden. After graduating from the University of Oklahoma I was on staff of the largest and fastest growing church in Oklahoma and the Lord was using my wife and I to lead several people to the Lord. We became aware of a pastor in South Dakota who had suffered a heart attack and I felt lead to go visit him and while with him the Lord made it clear we were to move to South Dakota and I would pastor his church while he recovered and we would start a student work at the University. We loaded our 3 young sons and moved to South Dakota and one of the first couples we met was the sister and brother in law of Dan Towle. A few weeks later they received the stream magazines with messages on Ezra and Nehemiah and gave them to us and after my wife Nancy and the boys were asleep I sat and read the messages. Upon completion I consecrated myself afresh to the Lord and had the clear speaking " GO TO L.A." I went in and woke up Nancy and told her the Lord just told me we were to go to LA and she simply said " Amen" and got up and started packing. The next morning we received a check in the mail for $100 designated to be used as the Lord leads so we had the funds for the trip. We put a few belongings in the station wagon and with our 3 young sons drove non stop for 17 hours arriving in LA about 2 am and stopped first at Elden Hall and then drove around the corner to Dan and Marilyns apartment where I knocked on the door and was greeted with Praise the Lord and we rejoiced in the Lord. The next day we moved into Magnolia House with Don and Karen Martin, Francis Ball, Thomas Quay and Don Hardy. Such began our 7 years in the Local Church .

From Hall 1 at Elden we would later go to South Pasadena Hall 4 and North Hollywood Hall 6 adding another son and daughter in the process and then we were the first to move to Anaheim shortly to be followed by Bro Lee who moved just down the street. We were blessed with one more son in Anaheim. Later we would move with our six children to Oklahoma City to start the church life in our home and where I would later be excommunicated for speaking the truth in love. Praise the Lord for His Mercy and Grace. Nothing can separate us from the Love of God in Christ Jesus. This Thursday Nancy and I will celebrate our 49th anniversary. We are blessed with 17 grandchildren. We look forward to hearing from old friends and making new ones. We have prayed for the leaders of the LC and will continue to do so. We are grateful that the Lord led us to LA and we are grateful that we got out when we did. There is so much we can share of the unsearchable riches of Christ. Christ is our Life and we gather around Him in our home. He chose us before the foundation of the earth and we are complete IN HIM!

Terry and Nancy Risenhoover

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Elden1971

Twenty years later that experience and others would keep me from involvement in the Daystar tragedy at Elden Hall. It has been erroneously reported on this forum and others that I was the accountant for Daystar. I was the accountant for many investors in Daystar and a Business Consultant to several Brothers. ... and also worked as a Business Consultant and Tax Preparer for many Brothers including Bro.Lee and Francis Ball. I can confirm that those involved in Daystar violated Federal and State Securities Law and Federal money laundering statutes. The son of one of the sisters that invested in Daystar was and still is an attorney now living in DC who advised the brothers and me of their illegal activities. Prior to the Daystar tragedy my experience at Elden Hall was one of the best times of my Life.

Brother Terry,

Welcome to the Forum. I was active in the LC's from the mid-70's to the mid-00's. It was the impending quarantines by the Blended Brothers in Anaheim and local conflicts which caused me to step away and study the Recovery from a distance. At that time the gnawing question in my mind could be summarized: "How could something so good become so bad?"

Thanks for clearing up the error about being your being Daystar's tax accountant. Can you confirm that Don Hardy was an officer for Daystar? Can you also confirm that Witness Lee, and others like Francis Ball, knew that laws were being broken, and were properly informed beforehand.

We have had lengthy threads concerning the events surrounding Daystar. Please correct any other issues which might have been wrongly posted.

[Elden1971]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Brother Terry,

Welcome to the Forum. I was active in the LC's from the mid-70's to the mid-00's. It was the impending quarantines by the Blended Brothers in Anaheim and local conflicts which caused me to step away and study the Recovery from a distance. At that time the gnawing question in my mind could be summarized: "How could something so good become so bad?"

Thanks for clearing up the error about being your being Daystar's tax accountant. Can you confirm that Don Hardy was an officer for Daystar? Can you also confirm that Witness Lee, and others like Francis Ball, knew that laws were being broken, and were properly informed beforehand.

We have had lengthy threads concerning the events surrounding Daystar. Please correct any other issues which might have been wrongly posted.

Brother Lee took serious advantage of Francis and put him at serious risk. I was close friends with Francis and his wife Martha lived with us briefly before they married. Francis would and did do anything Bro. Lee asked. When I explained the potential liability to Francis he was shocked and terrified. I was greatly relieved when the statute of limitations expired as Francis would have faced serious criminal and civil consequences.

Don Hardy was shocked when he discovered Phillip Lee was "cooking the books" in other words maintaining two sets of books. Don was outraged and resigned as an officer. Bro. Lee was himself an accountant and had to be complicit with Phillip as he personally funneled money through Francis and others. I have direct proof of this as I prepared the tax returns for Francis and heard first hand from him that Bro. Lee gave him the funds and told him what to do with them and of course I saw the actual bank statements.

Brother Lee and others were advised by Benton Fonner of the illegal and fraudulent nature of the Daystar offering. Daystar was the pivotal turning point for Brother Lee and Phillip and Timothy in the US. It is well documented of their previous business failings in Taiwan and the Phillipines. Bro. Lee came to me in Anaheim asking for Business advice as I had successfully invested for 39 Chinese clients in Taipei, Tainan and Brazil as well as Anaheim and had gained their trust and respect. I later traveled to Taiwan to meet personally with two brothers in Taipei and the other in Tainan. One of my sons has lived in Taiwan for 6 years and two years in China. I visited Beijing for 3 weeks about 3 years ago. I have been retired for 7 years and have no interest in discussing Daystar except to set the record straight. I knew personally all the major players and most of the investors and can say in summary that it was a disaster.

I have spent the last 25 years reviewing all the Brethren literature at www.stempublishing.com and my wife and I have assisted the T. Austin Sparks book ministry out of Tulsa. We know the sister who set up and operates www.austin-sparks.net out of New Zealand. Her personal site is www.unveiling.org
We are currently working with indigenous Christian workers in Kenya and Bangladesh and my websites are www.pamojacenter.com and [URL="http://www.riseupkenya.com"]www.riseupkenya.com

[Ohio]

Brother Terry,

Witness Lee frequently talked about the "glorious blessing" of the Lord poured out on Elden Hall in those early days. He stated that the source of that blessing was his own ministry and because the saints were "absolutely one" with him.

Was that really true?

The message throughout the 80's "New Way" period of time to us was that the Lord would not bless us again like He did at Elden hall until all the LC's were "one with the ministry."

[Elden1971]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Brother Terry,

Witness Lee frequently talked about the "glorious blessing" of the Lord poured out on Elden Hall in those early days. He stated that the source of that blessing was his own ministry and because the saints were "absolutely one" with him.

Was that really true?

The message throughout the 80's "New Way" period of time to us was that the Lord would not bless us again like He did at Elden hall until all the LC's were "one with the ministry."

Nothing could be further from the truth. It was the gospel that was prevailing and the Spirit convicted people during the Love Feasts on Saturday nights where we primarily sang and testified of the gospel of the glory of Christ. Christ was the center and not the ministry. I personally was contacted recently by a Brother that I brought to a Love Feast and during the singing I saw him born again. I had not heard from him in almost 40 years and he is still in the LC. Bro. Lee was almost non-existent in the meetings. Also the book room carried the Darby Bible, Andrew Murray, William Law, Hudson Taylor, CHM, Stephen Kaung, The Spirit of Christ by Murray was highly praised as was The Holiest of All. We were encouraged to read these and others and testimonies frequently quoted these and others to resounding Amens. Nee openly acknowledged his debt to the Brethren and others in the orthodoxy of the church and Lee also said he had nothing original but stood on the shoulders of others as well. Nothing exclusive was present until after Daystar. Daystar changed everything. Ironside said it best of the Brethren " They rightly divide the truth and wrongly divide themselves" After studying the Brethren literature for 25 years I see how much Nee and Lee "borrowed from them" unfortunately they followed the eschatology of Govett and panton which M E Barber brought to Nee as well as Penn Lewis who ironically Lee warned us against. Lee also "borrowed" the economy of God from Sparks conference in Taipei on The Stewardship of the Mystery" (available at www.austin-sparks.net

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Elden1971

Nothing could be further from the truth. It was the gospel that was prevailing and the Spirit convicted people during the Love Feasts on Saturday nights where we primarily sang and testified of the gospel of the glory of Christ. Christ was the center and not the ministry.

Thanks Elden1971

Another brother, Don Hose, a.k.a. poster hosepipe, has posted similar reports of those days in Elden Hall.

Another brother Don Rutledge, a.k.a. poster Hope, has also posted that during the first Elders and Workers Gathering in January 1974, Witness Lee brought sweeping changes into the recovery, rapidly bringing the blessing to an end. Hope also testified that Elden Hall grew stale, and thus Lee needed a new start in Anaheim.

You mentioned Brethren history. About 10 years ago, the Lord gave me the interest to study their first split, with the excommunications of Newton and Muller. I became convinced that the motive for Darby's actions were his ambitions to be the sole leader of the movement. Likewise, the horrific splits and lawsuits that were about to occur in the Great Lakes Area were all due to a power struggle between Titus Chu and leading Blendeds.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Elden1971

Daystar was the pivotal turning point for Brother Lee and Phillip and Timothy in the US. It is well documented of their previous business failings in Taiwan and the Phillipines.

Elden1971,

In the greater Ohio area, only whispers of Daystar were mentioned behind closed doors. We often heard how Titus Chu shielded us from things which happened in SoCal, and we were never given the impression that Witness Lee and sons bore any responsibility, rather the blame should fall on "those who left."

Obviously Titus Chu knew of the rotten side of Lee and Sons church business ventures, since nearly no brother from here was cheated by Daystar. TC obviously knew of their previous failings in Taiwan. He probably blamed the sons in order to maintain his pristine image of Lee.

You say "well documented" but actually very little is known on this forum. We have heard that the church in Taipei rejected Lee because he sold church property owned by Hall #1 to pay off a bad personal debt. Chinese saints, like Samuel Chang, who came to the USA said very little about this part of Lee's history, which opened the door wide open for American saints to be swindled.

[Cal]

Thank you for your firsthand report, Terry. This information is very convincing.

If the Internet had been around in the 1960s, Witness Lee would have never gotten off the ground in America. The dirt would have leaked out and been impossible to ignore.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Elden1971

Our journey to Elden Hall was quite remarkable and quite sudden. After graduating from the University of Oklahoma I was on staff of the largest and fastest growing church in Oklahoma and the Lord was using my wife and I to lead several people to the Lord. We became aware of a pastor in South Dakota who had suffered a heart attack and I felt lead to go visit him and while with him the Lord made it clear we were to move to South Dakota and I would pastor his church while he recovered and we would start a student work at the University. We loaded our 3 young sons and moved to South Dakota and one of the first couples we met was the sister and brother in law of Dan Towle. A few weeks later they received the stream magazines with messages on Ezra and Nehemiah and gave them to us and after my wife Nancy and the boys were asleep I sat and read the messages. Upon completion I consecrated myself afresh to the Lord and had the clear speaking " GO TO L.A." I went in and woke up Nancy and told her the Lord just told me we were to go to LA and she simply said " Amen" and got up and started packing. The next morning we received a check in the mail for $100 designated to be used as the Lord leads so we had the funds for the trip. We put a few belongings in the station wagon and with our 3 young sons drove non stop for 17 hours arriving in LA about 2 am and stopped first at Elden Hall and then drove around the corner to Dan and Marilyns apartment where I knocked on the door and was greeted with Praise the Lord and we rejoiced in the Lord. The next day we moved into Magnolia House with Don and Karen Martin, Francis Ball, Thomas Quay and Don Hardy. Such began our 7 years in the Local Church . From Hall 1 at Elden we would later go to South Pasadena Hall 4 and North Hollywood Hall 6 adding another son and daughter in the process and then we were the first to move to Anaheim shortly to be followed by Bro Lee who moved just down the street. We were blessed with one more son in Anaheim. Later we would move with our six children to Oklahoma City to start the church life in our home and where I would later be excommunicated for speaking the truth in love. Praise the Lord for His Mercy and Grace. Nothing can separate us from the Love of God in Christ Jesus. This Thursday Nancy and I will celebrate our 49th anniversary. We are blessed with 17 grandchildren. We look forward to hearing from old friends and making new ones. We have prayed for the leaders of the LC and will continue to do so. We are grateful that the Lord led us to LA and we are grateful that we got out when we did. There is so much we can share of the unsearchable riches of Christ. Christ is our Life and we gather around Him in our home. He chose us before the foundation of the earth and we are complete IN HIM! Terry and Nancy Risenhoover

Welcome to the forum Terry. Appears your move to Elden was near the same time when my parents move to LA from SW Washington via Henderson, NV (when the late Cliff Skoglund encouraged my parents to move LA). I was quite young so my memories of that era are faint.
As much as some of us appreciated our time in the local churches, it is not the culmination of our Christian living. Simply one passage through our Christian life.
Terry

[Elden1971]

Originally Posted by Terry

Welcome to the forum Terry. Appears your move to Elden was near the same time when my parents move to LA from SW Washington via Henderson, NV (when the late Cliff Skoglund encouraged my parents to move LA). I was quite young so my memories of that era are faint.
As much as some of us appreciated our time in the local churches, it is not the culmination of our Christian living. Simply one passage through our Christian life.
Terry

I think I am most grateful for the lifelong friendships that were established at Elden. It is interesting to note that 4 of the 5 elders eventually left or were forced out and over 75% of those at Elden eventually left.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Elden1971

I think I am most grateful for the lifelong friendships that were established at Elden. It is interesting to note that 4 of the 5 elders eventually left or were forced out and over 75% of those at Elden eventually left.

How in the world could Lee continue to promote the "Good Old Days" at Elden Hall when 3/4ths of those saints departed out of protest?

When it comes to church history in general or Recovery history in particular, Witness Lee just has no credibility whatsoever. He has distorted and twisted every event into some self-serving tale of modern mythology.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Elden1971

I think I am most grateful for the lifelong friendships that were established at Elden. It is interesting to note that 4 of the 5 elders eventually left or were forced out and over 75% of those at Elden eventually left.

Interesting. It seems the questionnaire LSM sent out on Elden Hall was based on the 25% that haven't left the recovery.

[Elden1971]

Originally Posted by Terry

Interesting. It seems the questionnaire LSM sent out on Elden Hall was based on the 25% that haven't left the recovery.

Probably less than 10% now from what I understand.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Elden1971

Later we would move with our six children to Oklahoma City to start the church life in our home and where I would later be excommunicated for speaking the truth in love. Praise the Lord for His Mercy and Grace. Nothing can separate us from the Love of God in Christ Jesus. This Thursday Nancy and I will celebrate our 49th anniversary. We are blessed with 17 grandchildren. We look forward to hearing from old friends and making new ones. We have prayed for the leaders of the LC and will continue to do so. We are grateful that the Lord led us to LA and we are grateful that we got out when we did. There is so much we can share of the unsearchable riches of Christ. Christ is our Life and we gather around Him in our home. He chose us before the foundation of the earth and we are complete IN HIM!

Terry and Nancy Risenhoover

Though my perception is based on whether or not you were politically correct, may I ask the basis for your excommunication?
Amen to the Father's leading for you and Nancy.

[Elden1971]

Originally Posted by Terry

Though my perception is based on whether or not you were politically correct, may I ask the basis for your excommunication?
Amen to the Father's leading for you and Nancy.

Thanks for asking about my "excommunication". In an attempt to help a young brother that I brought to the church in OKC who was under condemnation for his personal failings I told him all have sinned and come short of the glory of the Lord and even our dear Bro. Lee had done illegal acts and the Lord had forgiven him and was still using him. This helped the brother and we prayed and he left. The next day he apparently shared his testimony with another brother who immediately reported to James Barber that I had said Bro. Lee had done illegal acts. James called an emergency meeting of the elders and called me to come meet with them. Upon arrival James informed me that what I said was a lie and unless I repented I would be excommunicated. Of course what I had said was the truth regarding Bro. Lee committing illegal acts was absolutely true and I had been intimately involved in helping Francis Ball prepare his legal defense had he been caught (in retrospect what I said about Lee repenting may have been wrong) but suffice it to say I was in a real quandary. If I am to stay in Fellowship then I must say what I said was a lie when in fact it was the truth. I did not have the peace to uncover the sins of Bro. Lee even though I knew he was guilty so I reflected inwardly and said Lord I choose You and the Spirit of Glory fell upon me. I said nothing in my defense and James pronounced my excommunication and the other elders nodded in agreement(two of whom I had brought to the church the other two appointed by Benson. Only James had spoken and thus I was excommunicated from the church in OKC that had been birthed in my heart and started in my home

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Elden1971

Thanks for asking about my "excommunication". In an attempt to help a young brother that I brought to the church in OKC who was under condemnation for his personal failings I told him all have sinned and come short of the glory of the Lord and even our dear Bro. Lee had done illegal acts and the Lord had forgiven him and was still using him. This helped the brother and we prayed and he left.

The next day he apparently shared his testimony with another brother who immediately reported to James Barber that I had said Bro. Lee had done illegal acts. James called an emergency meeting of the elders and called me to come meet with them. Upon arrival James informed me that what I said was a lie and unless I repented I would be excommunicated. Of course what I had said was the truth regarding Bro. Lee committing illegal acts was absolutely true and I had been intimately involved in helping Francis Ball prepare his legal defense had he been caught (in retrospect what I said about Lee repenting may have been wrong) but suffice it to say I was in a real quandary.

If I am to stay in Fellowship then I must say what I said was a lie when in fact it was the truth. I did not have the peace to uncover the sins of Bro. Lee even though I knew he was guilty so I reflected inwardly and said Lord I choose You and the Spirit of Glory fell upon me. I said nothing in my defense and James pronounced my excommunication and the other elders nodded in agreement (two of whom I had brought to the church the other two appointed by Benson.) Only James had spoken and thus I was excommunicated from the church in OKC that had been birthed in my heart and started in my home.

Brother Terry, this is the first time I have ever read this, but it has been the experience of others saints that -- the Lord led us to the Recovery, and the Lord led us out. Others have remained there in the quandary -- "if the Lord led me here, then the Lord must want me to stay forever."

For those who begin to "follow a man, uplift a man, and be one with that man and his ministry," nearly every one reaches the point where he must close his eyes to sins and failures, hide his face from others who are being persecuted for righteousness sake, be complicit to numerous coverups of unrighteousness, take part in expelling those who speak the truth, and thus have his conscience seared with a branding iron.

[Elden1971]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Brother Terry, this is the first time I have ever read this, but it has been the experience of others saints that -- the Lord led us to the Recovery, and the Lord led us out. Others have remained there in the quandary -- "if the Lord led me here, then the Lord must want me to stay forever."

For those who begin to "follow a man, uplift a man, and be one with that man and his ministry," nearly every one reaches the point where he must close his eyes to sins and failures, hide his face from others who are being persecuted for righteousness sake, be complicit to numerous coverups of unrighteousness, take part in expelling those who speak the truth, and thus have his conscience seared with a branding iron.

No man is the sole depository of God's truth .

Christ is the answer to every question and the solution to every problem.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Elden1971

No man is the sole depository of God's truth .

Christ is the answer to every question and the solution to every problem.

Amen and amen!

[aron]

Originally Posted by Elden1971

No man is the sole depository of God's truth.

Jesus Christ alone posesses the 'ministry of the age'; both this age and every age which is to come. Jesus alone may be characterized as the "faithful Witness" (Rev 1:5); no one else should be taken at face value but should be tested. Anyone who presumes a pride of place within this ministry, on this side of the Bema (i.e. 'Judgment seat': see e.g. 2 Cor 5:10 & Rom 4:10) is arguably self-deceived. Jesus counseled to take the lowest place.

I've been in meetings where there was 'no one in charge', and we all found a happy spontaneous order. Everyone has gifts and when they are exercised a marvelous testimony emerges. One has a gift, one has a teaching, one has an encouragement, one has a discernment, one has a prophecy. Many 'local church' meetings were like this. It was attractive and pleasant, and probably because it was pleasing to the Father.

But I have been in many meetings where we waited for the delegated 'leader' to take his place at the head of the meeting and the difference was striking.

I am not for abolishing all titles and positions; rather that to the extent that we require them, in the name of 'good order in the church', or in WN's parlance 'the normal christian church life', we risk pushing aside the Spirit sent by Jesus and suffer commensurate loss.

Mr. Nee may have sincerely believed that his organizational arrangement would better serve the Lord to evangelize China, and beyond. But I argue his scheme was as Peter's: "Lord, it is good for us to be here. Let's build three booths: one for You, one for Moses, and one for Elijah. I will set up a gate and I and James and John will only allow those whom we deem proper to come in and fellowship. On our terms."

God has His terms. His term is His Son, Jesus. We also have our terms, in which we continually attempt an overlay. To the extent we stubbornly continue to do this, we suffer commensurate loss. Jesus left us with His Spirit of grace. To look to any earthly leader as the mediatory channel of said grace is to arguably miss the point.

Originally Posted by Elden1971

Christ is the answer to every question and the solution to every problem.

There is one High Priest standing before the throne, pleading His blood for us all. The rest of us, and I stress all of us, are each the proverbial "Small Potato" of Mr. Lee's rhetoric. Yet each one is gifted in some way, to benefit the body of assembled believers. Lee's error was to attempt to interpose his ministry between the High Priest and the believers. To me it's no wonder that consequently we repeatedly heard about "the new way" or "the vital groups" or some other scheme to attract our attention.

In all these "teachings" and "flows" and "moves of the Lord" and "feelings of the Body" we were distracted and separated from our Head. We lost sight of the High Priest as we accepted some lesser alternative. And again we suffered commensurately.

To show how corrupted their thinking had become, the Blendeds declared, upon WL's passing, that the age of the Great Leader was over and the age of Small Potatos had begun. No man was worthy to step into the shoes of the Apostle and only curators of the Great one's legacy could function, as his flag-wavers.

To which I would reply that the age of the Great Men began with Jesus Christ, and it ends with the same. No other man (or woman) can take this place. In the church there is only one Great Man. There is only one High Priest. The rest of us are as dust, sinful and redeemed by God's grace.

To which the natural question, raised repeatedly in the gospels and continually ever since, is, Who gets to sit at the right hand? Who is on the left? And who sits next to the Right Hand man, and so on? Notice Jesus never answered that directly. He will do so at the Judgment seat, and not before. Paul's dictum of "some as apostles, prophets, and teachers" did not overturn this, and will not. Paul's teachings must be subordinate to Jesus' teachings, not vice versa. Paul would never suborn the Master. He would never approve of using his epistles to do so. Why be so fooled, into trying?

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Brother Terry, this is the first time I have ever read this, but it has been the experience of others saints that -- the Lord led us to the Recovery, and the Lord led us out. Others have remained there in the quandary -- "if the Lord led me here, then the Lord must want me to stay forever."

For those who begin to "follow a man, uplift a man, and be one with that man and his ministry," nearly every one reaches the point where he must close his eyes to sins and failures, hide his face from others who are being persecuted for righteousness sake, be complicit to numerous coverups of unrighteousness, take part in expelling those who speak the truth, and thus have his conscience seared with a branding iron.

Ohio, how I have been told as all in the context of vision. having the vision and being faithful to the vision. True, there may be be some acknowlegdment mistakes were made, but it's as brothers have uttered many times; "it's not about right or wrong. It's about life".

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Elden1971

Thanks for asking about my "excommunication". In an attempt to help a young brother that I brought to the church in OKC who was under condemnation for his personal failings I told him all have sinned and come short of the glory of the Lord and even our dear Bro. Lee had done illegal acts and the Lord had forgiven him and was still using him. This helped the brother and we prayed and he left. The next day he apparently shared his testimony with another brother who immediately reported to James Barber that I had said Bro. Lee had done illegal acts. James called an emergency meeting of the elders and called me to come meet with them. Upon arrival James informed me that what I said was a lie and unless I repented I would be excommunicated. Of course what I had said was the truth regarding Bro. Lee committing illegal acts was absolutely true and I had been intimately involved in helping Francis Ball prepare his legal defense had he been caught (in retrospect what I said about Lee repenting may have been wrong) but suffice it to say I was in a real quandary. If I am to stay in Fellowship then I must say what I said was a lie when in fact it was the truth. I did not have the peace to uncover the sins of Bro. Lee even though I knew he was guilty so I reflected inwardly and said Lord I choose You and the Spirit of Glory fell upon me. I said nothing in my defense and James pronounced my excommunication and the other elders nodded in agreement(two of whom I had brought to the church the other two appointed by Benson. Only James had spoken and thus I was excommunicated from the church in OKC that had been birthed in my heart and started in my home

Thank you Terry for your willigness to share.

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by Elden1971

Later we would move with our six children to Oklahoma City to start the church life in our home and where I would later be excommunicated for speaking the truth in love. Praise the Lord for His Mercy and Grace. Nothing can separate us from the Love of God in Christ Jesus.

Thank you so much for your testimony Terry. You are sure to be a valuable member of our little forum as you can probably "fill in a lot of blanks" for us longtime ex members who were not there during the "Elden Hall" days. Feel free to take your time and catch your breath every once in awhile.

I found it interesting, if not ironic, that you used this phrase "speaking the truth in love" in reference to your "excommunication" from the Local Church. You may or may not be aware that this is the title of a book John Ingalls wrote upon his departure from the movement. Sadly, Witness Lee and many of his followers have a long and sordid history of rejecting and even attacking those who would "speak the truth in love" regarding the teachings, practices and history of the Local Church movement.

***Special Note for Terry and all others***
In Terry's original post he had posted his home telephone number. I have removed it and replaced it with "Send me a Private Message and I will give you further personal contact information" As a matter of policy I do not allow personal telephone numbers to be placed on the open forum. This is NOT anything that Terry did wrong, it's just that in today's crazy world there is a danger in the general public having one's home phone number. In any event, registered members are free to Private Message Terry and he can then relay all the private contact information he cares to give.

[Elden1971]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Thank you so much for your testimony Terry. You are sure to be a valuable member of our little forum as you can probably "fill in a lot of blanks" for us longtime ex members who were not there during the "Elden Hall" days. Feel free to take your time and catch your breath every once in awhile.

I found it interesting, if not ironic, that you used this phrase "speaking the truth in love" in reference to your "excommunication" from the Local Church. You may or may not be aware that this is the title of a book John Ingalls wrote upon his departure from the movement. Sadly, Witness Lee and many of his followers have a long and sordid history of rejecting and even attacking those who would "speak the truth in love" regarding the teachings, practices and history of the Local Church movement.

***Special Note for Terry and all others***
In Terry's original post he had posted his home telephone number. I have removed it and replaced it with "Send me a Private Message and I will give you further personal contact information" As a matter of policy I do not allow personal telephone numbers to be placed on the open forum. This is NOT anything that Terry did wrong, it's just that in today's crazy world there is a danger in the general public having one's home phone number. In any event, registered members are free to Private Message Terry and he can then relay all the private contact information he cares to give.

Thanks unto Him.....I did receive one call and had wonderful fellowship and I encourage any of you in or out of the LC to call or email. We had wonderful fellowship last night with a dear Bro. who turns 91 on April 5th and his beloved wife both of whom were with us in Elden. We sang and praised the Lord and rejoiced. Hallelujah!
Tomorrow March 20th is our 49th anniversary!

[Lisbon]

I listened to James Barber many years ago say that anyone who was not absolute for the church he would drive them out. A big red flag went up for me but obviously it didn't work that well since I have stayed all this time. The talk about vision without much definition has always been a bug for me.

The thing about the education was such a mystery to me. As some have mentioned, Lee seemed to be against education for a while and then a complete reversal. I think he was just training us to follow him absolutely without thought. Remember the "young gallilians?" That was one crazy time. He turned every thing over to the young ones for about a week and quickly picked the reins back up. It was all just an act.

Lisbon

[Elden1971]

Originally Posted by Lisbon

I listened to James Barber many years ago say that anyone who was not absolute for the church he would drive them out. A big red flag went up for me but obviously it didn't work that well since I have stayed all this time. The talk about vision without much definition has always been a bug for me.

The thing about the education was such a mystery to me. As some have mentioned, Lee seemed to be against education for a while and then a complete reversal. I think he was just training us to follow him absolutely without thought. Remember the "young gallilians?" That was one crazy time. He turned every thing over to the young ones for about a week and quickly picked the reins back up. It was all just an act.

Lisbon

Lee encouraged the young people to do some really stupid stuff. "I'm a man I'm the center and the meaning of the universe" was being shouted at cars and pedestrians outside the Embassy Hotel in downtown LA. Getting on crowded elevators and telling everyone let's call on the name of the Lord "O LORD JESUS" INSURED that everyone would get off at the next floor and of course our white robes and gospel marches with drums and trumpets even disrupted the Hare Krishnas!

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by Elden1971

Lee encouraged the young people to do some really stupid stuff.

And when things blew up, EVERY SINGLE TIME Lee blamed somebody else. In the late 70s it was Max Rapoport and Sal Benoit, in the late 80s it was John Ingalls, Bill Mallon, et al. It was NEVER his fault. It's no wonder that most Local Churchers look at Lee as virtually infallible, the man never admitted a mistake....except maybe for that incredibly weak and lame deathbed type confession at the end.

-

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Elden1971

Lee encouraged the young people to do some really stupid stuff.

Originally Posted by UntoHim

And when things blew up, EVERY SINGLE TIME Lee blamed somebody else.

In this regard Lee was the sneakiest of all. During the "Young Galilean" movement of the mid-70's, Lee had his minions stirring up the young people all over the US. Hundreds of young saints up and relocated at their bidding for supposed "training." Elders had no say whatsoever concerning the sheep under their care. Forget about prayer and following the Lord. Then the whole things implodes, and then in the aftermath Lee says, "I never told anyone what to do."

Talk about a sneaky copout!

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by Lisbon

The thing about the education was such a mystery to me. As some have mentioned, Lee seemed to be against education for a while and then a complete reversal. I think he was just training us to follow him absolutely without thought. Remember the "young gallilians?" That was one crazy time. He turned every thing over to the young ones for about a week and quickly picked the reins back up. It was all just an act.

Lisbon

Very insightful post! Another thing that Witness Lee said was that the Local Church would never have any kind of seminary. He did a complete reversal on that one as well with the establishment of "The Full-Time Training". which is now dubbed as "A two year post-graduate program". MMMM...a two year post-graduate progam....which is based upon biblical and religious studies....sounds a lot like a seminary to me! In fact I wouldn't be surprised if the LC/LSM tries to get the FTT accredited as a Christian seminary - albeit they will need assistance from the likes of Hank Hanegraaff and some liberal professors over at Fuller.

[Elden1971]

In reflecting back on our experience at Elden Hall the most positive thing was the Fellowship that existed in the home meetings, service groups, giving of hospitality and of course the Love Feasts on Saturday nights. One wonderful memory was when we just could not handle the heat and smog and loaded up our kids and drove to the mountains to a campsite and suddenly discovered several other families from Elden had all done the same thing. What a wonderful time of fellowship, singing, and praising the Lord. The love and care between the saints was what attracted others not the ministry.

[Elden1971]

Originally Posted by Elden1971

In reflecting back on our experience at Elden Hall the most positive thing was the Fellowship that existed in the home meetings, service groups, giving of hospitality and of course the Love Feasts on Saturday nights. One wonderful memory was when we just could not handle the heat and smog and loaded up our kids and drove to the mountains to a campsite and suddenly discovered several other families from Elden had all done the same thing. What a wonderful time of fellowship, singing, and praising the Lord. The love and care between the saints was what attracted others not the ministry.

The best thing about the conferences was not the meetings but the fellowship between the saints in the homes. We once had 27 saints for hospitality for 10 days. It was glorious ( and yes we did have a large home)!

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Elden1971

The best thing about the conferences was not the meetings but the fellowship between the saints in the homes. We once had 27 saints for hospitality for 10 days. It was glorious ( and yes we did have a large home)!

Elden1971, the typical LSMer will naturally respond that the only reason for the glorious hospitality, and the rich fellowship in the homes, and the joyful singing in the mountains, was the exceeding riches being dispensed by Witness Lee, the Minister of the Age.

[OBW]

Originally Posted by Elden1971

In reflecting back on our experience at Elden Hall the most positive thing was the Fellowship that existed in the home meetings, service groups, giving of hospitality and of course the Love Feasts on Saturday nights. One wonderful memory was when we just could not handle the heat and smog and loaded up our kids and drove to the mountains to a campsite and suddenly discovered several other families from Elden had all done the same thing. What a wonderful time of fellowship, singing, and praising the Lord. The love and care between the saints was what attracted others not the ministry.

If there was a way to separate the community that was in the LRC from the teachings and nonsense that have continued, that would be something. If there is anything to be said about the Local Churches — even to this day in some places — is that the people are among the most devoted to each other. And that is worthy of great note.

Unfortunate all that they have to put up with, or be hoodwinked by, as they carry on.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Elden1971

The love and care between the saints was what attracted others not the ministry.

Now, there is still love and care, but according to how one receives the ministry. It's loving those who love the ministry.

[Lisbon]

Not that it's worth that much, but I believe you'll find that Van Nuys, Hollywood, and N Hollywood are part of the city of Los Angeles. Beverly Hills is a city.

Lisbon

[Lisbon]

Regarding post 13

I'm sure there are others like me who would welcome some documented evidence of the financial problems of Lee and sons in Taiwan and Phillipines. I don't doubt them at all but it would be comforting to have a confirmation. I know plenty of LCers that say it is all a pack of lies. Many LCers strongly agree with RG and BP that their leaders are pristine and holy. Possibly writings by Hardy and Issit may be some hard evidence to gainsay.

In my many years in the LC I've heard it said too many times "It's all a pack of lies by the ambitious ones."
Lisbon

[InChristAlone]

Originally Posted by Lisbon

Many LCers strongly agree with RG and BP that their leaders are pristine and holy...

In my many years in the LC I've heard it said too many times "It's all a pack of lies by the ambitious ones."
Lisbon

That's exactly what they tell us.

Originally Posted by Elden1971

Let me make something explicitly clear regarding Witness Lee. I knew Witness Lee, I was a guest in his apartment on Westmoreland in LA, in his apartment on Juno in Anaheim and I helped move him into his duplex along with his son Philip. I knew 3 of his 6 children and I spent private one on one time with him and all of them. I know personally 10 of the blended brothers. When I post about them it is from my personal experience not from something I have read. John, Bill, Al and Godfred were all friends and I still have periodic contact with them. Don Hardy and I visit almost every week and his testimony is being written and hopefully will appear soon. I would welcome calls from anyone who wishes to know the truth of the early years and the results of my research over the past 35 years.

Last week I tried to talk to an old brother from the LRC about some hidden facts of the Local Church history. He didn't seem to be enthusiastic. He stopped that talk and said, “Satan is accusing our church day and night. We must be faithful to Jesus to protect His Body and His work.” I didn't know what to say. I didn't dare to tell the brother to check with the Lord if he is more faithful to Nee, Lee, and their doctrines than he is faithful to Jesus Christ. After all, who am I? I’m sure I’m even less faithful.

He is a very good brother: sincere, humble, and righteous. But he is fully confident that he has been building nothing but the Body of Christ for all his years in the Local Church. He has no doubts, no questions, and no critical thinking about the LRC, their leaders, and their doctrines. One day the brother told us about the book of Dr. Hsu. I am not sure if he read it or not. He just said that an old lady from China wrote a book, accusing Watchman Nee. She had done it years ago and now she published the book again. “How dare she accuse Watchman Nee! He had a spotless reputation.” When he said that, tears of sorrow were rolling down his cheeks.

I can’t stop thinking of him. He is a prominent person in our hall. He loves God with all his heart, all his soul, and all his mind, but he ignores any fact that doesn't portray Nee, Lee, and the LRC in the most favorable light. He complains that he stopped his spiritual growth many years ago, but he doesn't blame the teachings that he preaches. He blames himself because it’s him who doesn't “exercise his spirit.”

I believe it’s only God’s grace that can open his eyes to see the truth. My fellowship has been useless. I wish brother Terry could fellowship with him but I’m afraid it’s impossible. He isn't going to listen to anyone. He already knows his answer: "It's all a pack of lies by the ambitious ones... Satan is accusing the church day and night... We must be faithful to Christ."

[Elden1971]

Forgetting those things in the past I press toward the goal of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus .Before we came to the local church we were zealous for the Lord ,while in the church we were zealous for the Lord but became distracted by the false teaching and practices, since we have left the local church we are still zealous for the Lord by the Lord's mercy. Our focus is Christ and our desire is genuine Fellowship. We have all sinned and there is none righteous no not one. God forbid that we should glory except in the cross of our Lord. May the Lord be merciful to all of us that we might live in the reality of Galatians 2:20.....no longer I, but Christ

[awareness]

Originally Posted by InChristAlone

He complains that he stopped his spiritual grows many years ago, but he doesn't blame the teachings that he preaches. He blames himself because it’s him who doesn't “exercise his spirit.”

"Why follow my spirit? It might disagree with Witness Lee," is what a brother in the LRC said to me when I asked if he still followed his spirit.

[NeitherFirstnorLast]

Originally Posted by InChristAlone

I believe it’s only God’s grace that can open his eyes to see the truth. My fellowship has been useless. I wish brother Terry could fellowship with him but I’m afraid it’s impossible. He isn't going to listen to anyone. He already knows his answer: "It's all a pack of lies by the ambitious ones... Satan is accusing the church day and night... We must be faithful to Christ."

That's so very true. When I tried to bring up matters of history I received first a guarded response "We don't need to discuss that. The Lord has moved on, so should we" and then (literally) flight from my presence. What I see is that there are many older LC members who already KNOW the truth of the matter, but refuse to deal with that truth. It's easier to leave their heads buried in the sand and pretend none of it ever happened.... That way they don't have to deal with what those facts mean about the "spiritual lives" their leading now, and the real condition of the movement they've given their lives to. Only Christ can call His own, and only Prayer, not reasoning and factual proof, can liberate these people.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by NeitherFirstnorLast

When I tried to bring up matters of history I received first a guarded response "We don't need to discuss that. The Lord has moved on, so should we" and then (literally) flight from my presence. What I see is that there are many older LC members who already KNOW the truth of the matter, but refuse to deal with that truth.

Rooted in double-standards. The best admission I ever received was something to the effect of "honoring the feeling of the brothers". Which I perceive is no matter how much merit there might be, to break away from being partial to the brothers is not a risk deemed worthy.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by InChristAlone

I can’t stop thinking of him. He is a prominent person in our hall. He loves God with all his heart, all his soul, and all his mind, but he ignores any fact that doesn't portray Nee, Lee, and the LRC in the most favorable light. He complains that he stopped his spiritual grows many years ago, but he doesn't blame the teachings that he preaches. He blames himself because it’s him who doesn't “exercise his spirit.”

He's not alone. Lee had the tremendous ability to project failure on all his audience. It was not until I left the recovery did I wonder to myself, "If Lee worried that we had become Laodicea, then why did he never take some responsibility?"

The dishonest leaders in the Recovery felt that they had arrived as "overcomers," following in the footsteps of the "acting God," while the rest of us honest ones beat ourselves up over our failure did live up to Lee's "vision."

[Elden1971]

Originally Posted by InChristAlone

That's exactly what they tell us.



Last week I tried to talk to an old brother from the LRC about some hidden facts of the Local Church history. He didn't seem to be enthusiastic. He stopped that talk and said, “Satan is accusing our church day and night. We must be faithful to Jesus to protect His Body and His work.” I didn't know what to say. I didn't dare to tell the brother to check with the Lord if he is more faithful to Nee, Lee, and their doctrines than he is faithful to Jesus Christ. After all, who am I? I’m sure I’m even less faithful.

He is a very good brother: sincere, humble, and righteous. But he is fully confident that he has been building nothing but the Body of Christ for all his years in the Local Church. He has no doubts, no questions, and no critical thinking about the LRC, their leaders, and their doctrines. One day the brother told us about the book of Dr. Hsu. I am not sure if he read it or not. He just said that an old lady from China wrote a book, accusing Watchman Nee. She had done it years ago and now she published the book again. “How dare she accuse Watchman Nee! He had a spotless reputation.” When he said that, tears of sorrow were rolling down his cheeks.

I can’t stop thinking of him. He is a prominent person in our hall. He loves God with all his heart, all his soul, and all his mind, but he ignores any fact that doesn't portray Nee, Lee, and the LRC in the most favorable light. He complains that he stopped his spiritual growth many years ago, but he doesn't blame the teachings that he preaches. He blames himself because it’s him who doesn't “exercise his spirit.”

I believe it’s only God’s grace that can open his eyes to see the truth. My fellowship has been useless. I wish brother Terry could fellowship with him but I’m afraid it’s impossible. He isn't going to listen to anyone. He already knows his answer: "It's all a pack of lies by the ambitious ones... Satan is accusing the church day and night... We must be faithful to Christ."

t
How can one be faithful to Christ and be supporting a ministry that usurps Christ?

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Elden1971

How can one be faithful to Christ and be supporting a ministry that usurps Christ?

Terry, you well know the answer to this question : By sticking their head in the sand ... of course.

[InChristAlone]

Originally Posted by Elden1971

t
How can one be faithful to Christ and be supporting a ministry that usurps Christ?

He doesn’t think so. He believes that the LRC is the only genuine Christian church. What makes him think so? I’m not sure. But he likes to repeat the Local Church “genealogy” that “started” from Luther.

One more thing, he believes that Christianity has been degraded.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by InChristAlone

He doesn’t think so. He believes that the LRC is the only genuine Christian church. What makes him think so? I’m not sure. But he likes to repeat the Local Church “genealogy” that “started” from Luther.

One more thing, he believes that Christianity has been degraded.

The so-called degradation of Christianity springs from remnant theology. All exclusive systems successfully use it it convince their loyal followers that they alone are are "faithful" to the narrow way.

Distorted oneness is a common theme used by them all. They promote a system of oneness teachings that supposedly only they can achieve. Part of it is in the name, as if the NT provides a unique name for the one true church. Hence church in LA is good, while "the church of God in Christ in LA" is a degraded denominational division. Likewise the "church in LA, Hall One" is good, but the "First Church in LA" is bad.

In reality, a church's relationship with LSM decides her status as healthy or degraded. The true condition of the church means next to nothing. Whether or not the church uses HWfMR means everything.

[Elden1971]

Originally Posted by Lisbon

Regarding post 13

I'm sure there are others like me who would welcome some documented evidence of the financial problems of Lee and sons in Taiwan and Phillipines. I don't doubt them at all but it would be comforting to have a confirmation. I know plenty of LCers that say it is all a pack of lies. Many LCers strongly agree with RG and BP that their leaders are pristine and holy. Possibly writings by Hardy and Issit may be some hard evidence to gainsay.

In my many years in the LC I've heard it said too many times "It's all a pack of lies by the ambitious ones."
Lisbon

That is a true statement when you realize that the blended brothers are the ambitious ones.....and Benson is the most ambitious of all as his lifelong dream was to head a worldwide ministry according to his college classmates testimony and my personal experience with him.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Elden1971

That is a true statement when you realize that the blended brothers are the ambitious ones.....and Benson is the most ambitious of all as his lifelong dream was to head a worldwide ministry according to his college classmates testimony and my personal experience with him.

James 3.16 speaks well of the "Blended" ambitions by those at LSM ...

For where jealousy and selfish ambitions exist, there you will find disorder and every evil work.

Romans 2.1 well addresses self-righteous "Blended" condemnations on others ...

You, therefore, are inexcusable, you who pass judgment on others. For in what you judge others, you condemn yourself, since while you judge others, you practice the very same things.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Elden1971

That is a true statement when you realize that the blended brothers are the ambitious ones.....and Benson is the most ambitious of all as his lifelong dream was to head a worldwide ministry according to his college classmates testimony and my personal experience with him.

If I recall "Hope" had said the same thing regarding Benson.
Concering the so-called ambitious ones, at a lunch in 2004 one of the so-called ambitious ones told me if he had been ambitious in the manner LSM co-workers portray him to be, he would have never left.

[Elden1971]

"Saviour before Thy face we fall,
Our Lord, our life, our hope, our all,
For we have nowhere else to flee,
No sanctuary, Lord, but Thee."

[Elden1971]

This will be my last post for a while and I want to thank untohim for putting up and maintaining this site and I want to thank each of you that are contributing. For those of you still meeting with the local churches (LRC) my wife and I would welcome personal contact to pray and fellowship with you. For those of you that have called or sent personal messages we look forward to continued contact. As my wife and I enter our 70th year here on this amazing planet we thank God for our soon to be 50 years together and what a journey it has been as Christ has made his home in our hearts. Oh how we praise and thank and worship Him for showing us that NOTHING can separate us from the Love of God in Christ Jesus. We remain full of the Love and Peace and Joy of the Lord. Our prayer for each of you is that you may be filled continually with His Presence where there is indeed fullness of Joy!

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Lisbon

Regarding post 13

I'm sure there are others like me who would welcome some documented evidence of the financial problems of Lee and sons in Taiwan and Phillipines. I don't doubt them at all but it would be comforting to have a confirmation. I know plenty of LCers that say it is all a pack of lies. Many LCers strongly agree with RG and BP that their leaders are pristine and holy. Possibly writings by Hardy and Issit may be some hard evidence to gainsay.

In my many years in the LC I've heard it said too many times "It's all a pack of lies by the ambitious ones."
Lisbon

I'm sure there are brothers in Asia who could be more whistleblowers what has happened in Asia.
As for Steve Isitt goes, this quote from Elden1971 in post #115 may answer why he was removed from fellowship,

"The current activity of the Blended Brothers to me has been incomprehensible since I knew most of them and I'm shocked at the level of deception that has encompassed them, but a little leaven eventually leavens the whole lot."

When you start digging into the past, asking questions, seeking brothers who had left, one begins to learn the other side of the coin. There is good reason the blended brothers don't want you speaking to quarantined brothers. The brothers who left no longer have cause to be politically correct. While the blended brothers at least some feel some shame for their promoting of Phillip Lee. It's a part of the local church history they would like to consider as never having transpired.