Our Journey to Elden in Jan 1971

[Ohio]

Brother Terry,

Witness Lee frequently talked about the "glorious blessing" of the Lord poured out on Elden Hall in those early days. He stated that the source of that blessing was his own ministry and because the saints were "absolutely one" with him.

Was that really true?

The message throughout the 80's "New Way" period of time to us was that the Lord would not bless us again like He did at Elden hall until all the LC's were "one with the ministry."

[Elden1971]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Brother Terry,

Witness Lee frequently talked about the "glorious blessing" of the Lord poured out on Elden Hall in those early days. He stated that the source of that blessing was his own ministry and because the saints were "absolutely one" with him.

Was that really true?

The message throughout the 80's "New Way" period of time to us was that the Lord would not bless us again like He did at Elden hall until all the LC's were "one with the ministry."

Nothing could be further from the truth. It was the gospel that was prevailing and the Spirit convicted people during the Love Feasts on Saturday nights where we primarily sang and testified of the gospel of the glory of Christ. Christ was the center and not the ministry. I personally was contacted recently by a Brother that I brought to a Love Feast and during the singing I saw him born again. I had not heard from him in almost 40 years and he is still in the LC. Bro. Lee was almost non-existent in the meetings. Also the book room carried the Darby Bible, Andrew Murray, William Law, Hudson Taylor, CHM, Stephen Kaung, The Spirit of Christ by Murray was highly praised as was The Holiest of All. We were encouraged to read these and others and testimonies frequently quoted these and others to resounding Amens. Nee openly acknowledged his debt to the Brethren and others in the orthodoxy of the church and Lee also said he had nothing original but stood on the shoulders of others as well. Nothing exclusive was present until after Daystar. Daystar changed everything. Ironside said it best of the Brethren " They rightly divide the truth and wrongly divide themselves" After studying the Brethren literature for 25 years I see how much Nee and Lee "borrowed from them" unfortunately they followed the eschatology of Govett and panton which M E Barber brought to Nee as well as Penn Lewis who ironically Lee warned us against. Lee also "borrowed" the economy of God from Sparks conference in Taipei on The Stewardship of the Mystery" (available at www.austin-sparks.net

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Elden1971

Nothing could be further from the truth. It was the gospel that was prevailing and the Spirit convicted people during the Love Feasts on Saturday nights where we primarily sang and testified of the gospel of the glory of Christ. Christ was the center and not the ministry.

Thanks Elden1971

Another brother, Don Hose, a.k.a. poster hosepipe, has posted similar reports of those days in Elden Hall.

Another brother Don Rutledge, a.k.a. poster Hope, has also posted that during the first Elders and Workers Gathering in January 1974, Witness Lee brought sweeping changes into the recovery, rapidly bringing the blessing to an end. Hope also testified that Elden Hall grew stale, and thus Lee needed a new start in Anaheim.

You mentioned Brethren history. About 10 years ago, the Lord gave me the interest to study their first split, with the excommunications of Newton and Muller. I became convinced that the motive for Darby's actions were his ambitions to be the sole leader of the movement. Likewise, the horrific splits and lawsuits that were about to occur in the Great Lakes Area were all due to a power struggle between Titus Chu and leading Blendeds.

[Elden1971]

Don Hose and his family lived in the same duplex with us and I just renewed contact with him today thanks to Harold.
With all due respect to Hope Elden did not grow stale but angry and disappointed.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Elden1971

Don Hose and his family lived in the same duplex with us and I just renewed contact with him today thanks to Harold.
With all due respect to Hope Elden did not grow stale but angry and disappointed.

What do you mean angry?

[Elden1971]

Originally Posted by Ohio

What do you mean angry?

Righteous indignation at the evil we had seen.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Elden1971

Righteous indignation at the evil we had seen.

So how much credit would you give Lee for the blessing in Elden Hall, and how much of the anger would you ascribe to Lee?

[Elden1971]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Thanks Elden1971

Another brother, Don Hose, a.k.a. poster hosepipe, has posted similar reports of those days in Elden Hall.

Another brother Don Rutledge, a.k.a. poster Hope, has also posted that during the first Elders and Workers Gathering in January 1974, Witness Lee brought sweeping changes into the recovery, rapidly bringing the blessing to an end. Hope also testified that Elden Hall grew stale, and thus Lee needed a new start in Anaheim.

You mentioned Brethren history. About 10 years ago, the Lord gave me the interest to study their first split, with the excommunications of Newton and Muller. I became convinced that the motive for Darby's actions were his ambitions to be the sole leader of the movement. Likewise, the horrific splits and lawsuits that were about to occur in the Great Lakes Area were all due to a power struggle between Titus Chu and leading Blendeds.

https://sites.google.com/a/berean-tr...volume-12/love

I find the ministry of J B Stoney to be a real blessing.
I do not agree with your conclusion regarding Darby. If you examined more deeply you would reach the same conclusion. I do understand how you could draw that conclusion as I felt the same way initially but after years of reading hundreds of sources I have great respect and appreciation for Darby's ministry and manner of living. Certainly he was not without flaws but was greatly used in many different countries.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Elden1971

https://sites.google.com/a/berean-tr...volume-12/love

I find the ministry of J B Stoney to be a real blessing.
I do not agree with your conclusion regarding Darby. If you examined more deeply you would reach the same conclusion. I do understand how you could draw that conclusion as I felt the same way initially but after years of reading hundreds of sources I have great respect and appreciation for Darby's ministry and manner of living. Certainly he was not without flaws but was greatly used in many different countries.

I'm not saying that Darby was not a gifted minister who led a strict life, but how could his actions in Plymouth and Bristol ever be justified?

WL also led a strict and moral life above reproach, as many would testify on his behalf, yet look at how he treated other brothers.

[Elden1971]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I'm not saying that Darby was not a gifted minister who led a strict life, but how could his actions in Plymouth and Bristol ever be justified?

WL also led a strict and moral life above reproach, as many would testify on his behalf, yet look at how he treated other brothers.

Plymouth was justified due to heresy, but Bristol was not and it was one of Darby's regrets. Due to the cover up of gross immorality one must question Lee's morality. Also are we not admonished not to associate with fornicators. There is none righteous no not one. We will all stand before the judgment seat.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Elden1971

Plymouth was justified due to heresy, but Bristol was not and it was one of Darby's regrets. Due to the cover up of gross immorality one must question Lee's morality. Also are we not admonished not to associate with fornicators. There is none righteous no not one. We will all stand before the judgment seat.

Concerning the "heresy" of Newton at Plymouth being justified, I have to disagree. Newton's writings, taken as they are, are well within the boundaries of orthodoxy. It was Darby's misreading, adding in excessive doses of his own dramatic hyperbole, which incited unnecessary alarm within the Plymouth saints.

Elden1971, are you aware of the following events?

During Darby's lengthy stay in Plymouth, due to the sheer weight of his own character, slowly many of the leading brothers in that church were turned against Newton in favor of Darby, Wigram and the exclusives. Nearly two decades later, by 1866, some of these learned men of God, primarily William H. Dorman, began to study in-depth the teachings of Darby concerning the humanity of Jesus our Savior under the "federal headship of Adam." Their exhaustive study of Darby's teachings convinced them that his teaching in substance was identical to Newton's in Plymouth back in the 1840's.

With W.H. Dorman, were other renowned Brethren formerly of Plymouth, namely Captain Percy Hall, Joseph Stancomb, and Thomas Newberry (The Englishman's Bible.) Since Darby and his supporters on Park Ave. in London refused to entertain the notion, nor even consider their research, these brothers could no longer bear the hypocrisy, and parted ways with Darby.

[OBW]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Hope also testified that Elden Hall grew stale, and thus Lee needed a new start in Anaheim.

I don't remember the details now. I wonder if Don was commenting from his own observation or from the word he and/or other edlers got from Lee in those early elders meetings.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by OBW

I don't remember the details now. I wonder if Don was commenting from his own observation or from the word he and/or other edlers got from Lee in those early elders meetings.

In his account, Don Rutledge wrote this ...

Life Ebbs at Elden

An interesting thing occurred in Elden hall which now was one of four halls in Los Angeles. Witness Lee and John Ingalls had stayed there. Up until then, many had equated the blessing on Elden with having the ministry of Witness Lee and to a lesser extent the ministry of John Ingalls. By early 1973 I began to hear of the staleness and flatness of the Elden hall church meetings. I visited there and frankly most of the new churches were much more on fire and lively in Christ than Elden was. Elden still had the ministry, but it was clear the blessing was not there. I heard Witness Lee state on many occasions that he needed to leave Elden, and that the Lord needed a new start with his ministry.

Eventually in 1974, Elden Hall was given up. The remaining saints in Elden moved to the city of Rosemead, and Witness Lee, John Ingalls, Max Rapaport and a few hundred others moved to Anaheim.

Anaheim never prospered and was a continual hole into which people and money were poured with no increase and no blessing. The Daystar experience was a great frustration to the move of the Spirit. In 1975, we were having a conference in Dallas. Before the meetings, we would pray in the large home on our property and then would walk across the parking lot to the large new hall we had just built. One evening I was walking with Brother Lee. He stopped, turned to me and then put his arm around my shoulder. (Never before and never since have I seen him embrace a brother. Thus, I realized he was about to tell me something very serious. He told me that he had made a terrible mistake with Daystar. He said that if he saw Brother Nee he would not know what to say since Brother Nee had warned him not to mix the church with financial matters or business. He then told me that he had once told Watchman Nee that he was not following him (Watchman Nee), but rather was following the truth and vision that Brother Nee taught. Furthermore, that he (Witness Lee) would not follow Watchman Nee if Brother Nee left the vision, but he (Brother Lee) would continue to follow the vision. He then looked me straight in the eye and charged me, “Brother Don, if I leave the vision do not follow me, but follow the vision.” I was a little speechless but I did manage to return the embrace and assure Brother Lee that I would remain true to the vision and the truth.

Daystar

Starting around 1972, Witness Lee expressed a concern for the financial suffering of the migrating saints and their need to be able to purchase proper meeting places. I was in a meeting of visiting elders and co-workers in which he introduced the Daystar business. He shared that his son Timothy had approached him about a business and that the business seemed to Witness Lee to be ideal for us (the local churches). The brothers and sisters could invest money, earn a nice profit of around 35%, and generate significant profit for the support of the new churches. He then spoke of manufacturing only the finest product. We could produce the product in Taiwan, which would help the believers there with employment and sell the product in the USA. He spoke at length concerning how the members of the churches should only invest their surplus and that he felt very positive that this was of the Lord. The business consisted of manufacturing and selling an expensive motor home. This was certainly a very different meeting than anything I had ever attended. I and others left with our heads spinning. I was bothered and asked James Barber what was going on. He replied that Witness Lee was God’s anointed and I should be very careful about criticizing. He declared that even if Witness Lee was wrong, God would bless the endeavor.

Shortly after this meeting, Witness Lee was scheduled to come to Houston for a conference in late 1972. I planned to attend. By that time I had left teaching for a sales job. The night before the conference I had a dream. I was sitting in the living room of Ben McPherson in Houston with Witness Lee. The other brothers in the room were very clear to me, as was where they were sitting. Suddenly, Witness Lee turned to me and said he wanted me to work for him in Daystar. In the dream, the Lord made it very clear I was not to take the offer. The next night there we all were, sitting in exactly the right seats. Witness Lee turned to me and offered me a job. Thank the Lord for the warning. I never worked for Daystar and never invested a dime.

[Elden1971]

Originally Posted by Ohio

In his account, Don Rutledge wrote this ...

Eventually in 1974, Elden Hall was given up. The remaining saints in Elden moved to the city of Rosemead, and Witness Lee, John Ingalls, Max Rapaport and a few hundred others moved to Anaheim.

Interestingly the blessing went to Rosemead with Samuel Chang and Don Hardy and 31 others (only 1 young person). One year later they had increased to over 100 and Anaheim had no increase(except for our son that was born!) We were as previously posted the first to move to Anaheim and Bro. Lee moved down the street from us until his home was built. We later moved close to the meeting hall and Al Knoch and Max and many others.

[Elden1971]

Originally Posted by Ohio

In his account, Don Rutledge wrote this ...

Anaheim never prospered and was a continual hole into which people and money were poured with no increase and no blessing. The Daystar experience was a great frustration to the move of the Spirit.

The difference between Anaheim and Elden prior to Daystar was like night and day. Also our experience in Hall 4 (east LA ) and Hall 6(North Hollywood) was quite positive. It did always bother me that 3 of the six halls were in other cities. Why did we not meet as the Church in Van Nuys and the Church in North Hollywood instead of being Halls of the Church in LA? What happened to the ground of locality?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Elden1971

Anaheim never prospered and was a continual hole into which people and money were poured with no increase and no blessing. The Daystar experience was a great frustration to the move of the Spirit.

The difference between Anaheim and Elden prior to Daystar was like night and day. Also our experience in Hall 4 (east LA ) and Hall 6(North Hollywood) was quite positive. It did always bother me that 3 of the six halls were in other cities. Why did we not meet as the Church in Van Nuys and the Church in North Hollywood instead of being Halls of the Church in LA? What happened to the ground of locality?

The ground of locality has proven to be a farce.

My city now has 2 LC's standing on the ground of oneness. Some cities have 4 or 5.

The corollary to one city/ one church (OCOC) was the appointment of elders by the approved "apostle."

Officially, we were against all hierarchy and the system of "bishops." But that is exactly what we had become.