Our Journey to Elden in Jan 1971

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Elden1971

Twenty years later that experience and others would keep me from involvement in the Daystar tragedy at Elden Hall. It has been erroneously reported on this forum and others that I was the accountant for Daystar. I was the accountant for many investors in Daystar and a Business Consultant to several Brothers. ... and also worked as a Business Consultant and Tax Preparer for many Brothers including Bro.Lee and Francis Ball. I can confirm that those involved in Daystar violated Federal and State Securities Law and Federal money laundering statutes. The son of one of the sisters that invested in Daystar was and still is an attorney now living in DC who advised the brothers and me of their illegal activities. Prior to the Daystar tragedy my experience at Elden Hall was one of the best times of my Life.

Brother Terry,

Welcome to the Forum. I was active in the LC's from the mid-70's to the mid-00's. It was the impending quarantines by the Blended Brothers in Anaheim and local conflicts which caused me to step away and study the Recovery from a distance. At that time the gnawing question in my mind could be summarized: "How could something so good become so bad?"

Thanks for clearing up the error about being your being Daystar's tax accountant. Can you confirm that Don Hardy was an officer for Daystar? Can you also confirm that Witness Lee, and others like Francis Ball, knew that laws were being broken, and were properly informed beforehand.

We have had lengthy threads concerning the events surrounding Daystar. Please correct any other issues which might have been wrongly posted.

[Elden1971]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Brother Terry,

Welcome to the Forum. I was active in the LC's from the mid-70's to the mid-00's. It was the impending quarantines by the Blended Brothers in Anaheim and local conflicts which caused me to step away and study the Recovery from a distance. At that time the gnawing question in my mind could be summarized: "How could something so good become so bad?"

Thanks for clearing up the error about being your being Daystar's tax accountant. Can you confirm that Don Hardy was an officer for Daystar? Can you also confirm that Witness Lee, and others like Francis Ball, knew that laws were being broken, and were properly informed beforehand.

We have had lengthy threads concerning the events surrounding Daystar. Please correct any other issues which might have been wrongly posted.

Brother Lee took serious advantage of Francis and put him at serious risk. I was close friends with Francis and his wife Martha lived with us briefly before they married. Francis would and did do anything Bro. Lee asked. When I explained the potential liability to Francis he was shocked and terrified. I was greatly relieved when the statute of limitations expired as Francis would have faced serious criminal and civil consequences.

Don Hardy was shocked when he discovered Phillip Lee was "cooking the books" in other words maintaining two sets of books. Don was outraged and resigned as an officer. Bro. Lee was himself an accountant and had to be complicit with Phillip as he personally funneled money through Francis and others. I have direct proof of this as I prepared the tax returns for Francis and heard first hand from him that Bro. Lee gave him the funds and told him what to do with them and of course I saw the actual bank statements.

Brother Lee and others were advised by Benton Fonner of the illegal and fraudulent nature of the Daystar offering. Daystar was the pivotal turning point for Brother Lee and Phillip and Timothy in the US. It is well documented of their previous business failings in Taiwan and the Phillipines. Bro. Lee came to me in Anaheim asking for Business advice as I had successfully invested for 39 Chinese clients in Taipei, Tainan and Brazil as well as Anaheim and had gained their trust and respect. I later traveled to Taiwan to meet personally with two brothers in Taipei and the other in Tainan. One of my sons has lived in Taiwan for 6 years and two years in China. I visited Beijing for 3 weeks about 3 years ago. I have been retired for 7 years and have no interest in discussing Daystar except to set the record straight. I knew personally all the major players and most of the investors and can say in summary that it was a disaster.

I have spent the last 25 years reviewing all the Brethren literature at www.stempublishing.com and my wife and I have assisted the T. Austin Sparks book ministry out of Tulsa. We know the sister who set up and operates www.austin-sparks.net out of New Zealand. Her personal site is www.unveiling.org
We are currently working with indigenous Christian workers in Kenya and Bangladesh and my websites are www.pamojacenter.com and [URL="http://www.riseupkenya.com"]www.riseupkenya.com

[Ohio]

Brother Terry,

Witness Lee frequently talked about the "glorious blessing" of the Lord poured out on Elden Hall in those early days. He stated that the source of that blessing was his own ministry and because the saints were "absolutely one" with him.

Was that really true?

The message throughout the 80's "New Way" period of time to us was that the Lord would not bless us again like He did at Elden hall until all the LC's were "one with the ministry."

[Elden1971]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Brother Terry,

Witness Lee frequently talked about the "glorious blessing" of the Lord poured out on Elden Hall in those early days. He stated that the source of that blessing was his own ministry and because the saints were "absolutely one" with him.

Was that really true?

The message throughout the 80's "New Way" period of time to us was that the Lord would not bless us again like He did at Elden hall until all the LC's were "one with the ministry."

Nothing could be further from the truth. It was the gospel that was prevailing and the Spirit convicted people during the Love Feasts on Saturday nights where we primarily sang and testified of the gospel of the glory of Christ. Christ was the center and not the ministry. I personally was contacted recently by a Brother that I brought to a Love Feast and during the singing I saw him born again. I had not heard from him in almost 40 years and he is still in the LC. Bro. Lee was almost non-existent in the meetings. Also the book room carried the Darby Bible, Andrew Murray, William Law, Hudson Taylor, CHM, Stephen Kaung, The Spirit of Christ by Murray was highly praised as was The Holiest of All. We were encouraged to read these and others and testimonies frequently quoted these and others to resounding Amens. Nee openly acknowledged his debt to the Brethren and others in the orthodoxy of the church and Lee also said he had nothing original but stood on the shoulders of others as well. Nothing exclusive was present until after Daystar. Daystar changed everything. Ironside said it best of the Brethren " They rightly divide the truth and wrongly divide themselves" After studying the Brethren literature for 25 years I see how much Nee and Lee "borrowed from them" unfortunately they followed the eschatology of Govett and panton which M E Barber brought to Nee as well as Penn Lewis who ironically Lee warned us against. Lee also "borrowed" the economy of God from Sparks conference in Taipei on The Stewardship of the Mystery" (available at www.austin-sparks.net

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Elden1971

Nothing could be further from the truth. It was the gospel that was prevailing and the Spirit convicted people during the Love Feasts on Saturday nights where we primarily sang and testified of the gospel of the glory of Christ. Christ was the center and not the ministry.

Thanks Elden1971

Another brother, Don Hose, a.k.a. poster hosepipe, has posted similar reports of those days in Elden Hall.

Another brother Don Rutledge, a.k.a. poster Hope, has also posted that during the first Elders and Workers Gathering in January 1974, Witness Lee brought sweeping changes into the recovery, rapidly bringing the blessing to an end. Hope also testified that Elden Hall grew stale, and thus Lee needed a new start in Anaheim.

You mentioned Brethren history. About 10 years ago, the Lord gave me the interest to study their first split, with the excommunications of Newton and Muller. I became convinced that the motive for Darby's actions were his ambitions to be the sole leader of the movement. Likewise, the horrific splits and lawsuits that were about to occur in the Great Lakes Area were all due to a power struggle between Titus Chu and leading Blendeds.

[Elden1971]

Don Hose and his family lived in the same duplex with us and I just renewed contact with him today thanks to Harold.
With all due respect to Hope Elden did not grow stale but angry and disappointed.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Elden1971

Don Hose and his family lived in the same duplex with us and I just renewed contact with him today thanks to Harold.
With all due respect to Hope Elden did not grow stale but angry and disappointed.

What do you mean angry?

[Elden1971]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Thanks Elden1971

Another brother, Don Hose, a.k.a. poster hosepipe, has posted similar reports of those days in Elden Hall.

Another brother Don Rutledge, a.k.a. poster Hope, has also posted that during the first Elders and Workers Gathering in January 1974, Witness Lee brought sweeping changes into the recovery, rapidly bringing the blessing to an end. Hope also testified that Elden Hall grew stale, and thus Lee needed a new start in Anaheim.

You mentioned Brethren history. About 10 years ago, the Lord gave me the interest to study their first split, with the excommunications of Newton and Muller. I became convinced that the motive for Darby's actions were his ambitions to be the sole leader of the movement. Likewise, the horrific splits and lawsuits that were about to occur in the Great Lakes Area were all due to a power struggle between Titus Chu and leading Blendeds.

https://sites.google.com/a/berean-tr...volume-12/love

I find the ministry of J B Stoney to be a real blessing.
I do not agree with your conclusion regarding Darby. If you examined more deeply you would reach the same conclusion. I do understand how you could draw that conclusion as I felt the same way initially but after years of reading hundreds of sources I have great respect and appreciation for Darby's ministry and manner of living. Certainly he was not without flaws but was greatly used in many different countries.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Elden1971

https://sites.google.com/a/berean-tr...volume-12/love

I find the ministry of J B Stoney to be a real blessing.
I do not agree with your conclusion regarding Darby. If you examined more deeply you would reach the same conclusion. I do understand how you could draw that conclusion as I felt the same way initially but after years of reading hundreds of sources I have great respect and appreciation for Darby's ministry and manner of living. Certainly he was not without flaws but was greatly used in many different countries.

I'm not saying that Darby was not a gifted minister who led a strict life, but how could his actions in Plymouth and Bristol ever be justified?

WL also led a strict and moral life above reproach, as many would testify on his behalf, yet look at how he treated other brothers.

[OBW]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Hope also testified that Elden Hall grew stale, and thus Lee needed a new start in Anaheim.

I don't remember the details now. I wonder if Don was commenting from his own observation or from the word he and/or other edlers got from Lee in those early elders meetings.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by OBW

I don't remember the details now. I wonder if Don was commenting from his own observation or from the word he and/or other edlers got from Lee in those early elders meetings.

In his account, Don Rutledge wrote this ...

Life Ebbs at Elden

An interesting thing occurred in Elden hall which now was one of four halls in Los Angeles. Witness Lee and John Ingalls had stayed there. Up until then, many had equated the blessing on Elden with having the ministry of Witness Lee and to a lesser extent the ministry of John Ingalls. By early 1973 I began to hear of the staleness and flatness of the Elden hall church meetings. I visited there and frankly most of the new churches were much more on fire and lively in Christ than Elden was. Elden still had the ministry, but it was clear the blessing was not there. I heard Witness Lee state on many occasions that he needed to leave Elden, and that the Lord needed a new start with his ministry.

Eventually in 1974, Elden Hall was given up. The remaining saints in Elden moved to the city of Rosemead, and Witness Lee, John Ingalls, Max Rapaport and a few hundred others moved to Anaheim.

Anaheim never prospered and was a continual hole into which people and money were poured with no increase and no blessing. The Daystar experience was a great frustration to the move of the Spirit. In 1975, we were having a conference in Dallas. Before the meetings, we would pray in the large home on our property and then would walk across the parking lot to the large new hall we had just built. One evening I was walking with Brother Lee. He stopped, turned to me and then put his arm around my shoulder. (Never before and never since have I seen him embrace a brother. Thus, I realized he was about to tell me something very serious. He told me that he had made a terrible mistake with Daystar. He said that if he saw Brother Nee he would not know what to say since Brother Nee had warned him not to mix the church with financial matters or business. He then told me that he had once told Watchman Nee that he was not following him (Watchman Nee), but rather was following the truth and vision that Brother Nee taught. Furthermore, that he (Witness Lee) would not follow Watchman Nee if Brother Nee left the vision, but he (Brother Lee) would continue to follow the vision. He then looked me straight in the eye and charged me, “Brother Don, if I leave the vision do not follow me, but follow the vision.” I was a little speechless but I did manage to return the embrace and assure Brother Lee that I would remain true to the vision and the truth.

Daystar

Starting around 1972, Witness Lee expressed a concern for the financial suffering of the migrating saints and their need to be able to purchase proper meeting places. I was in a meeting of visiting elders and co-workers in which he introduced the Daystar business. He shared that his son Timothy had approached him about a business and that the business seemed to Witness Lee to be ideal for us (the local churches). The brothers and sisters could invest money, earn a nice profit of around 35%, and generate significant profit for the support of the new churches. He then spoke of manufacturing only the finest product. We could produce the product in Taiwan, which would help the believers there with employment and sell the product in the USA. He spoke at length concerning how the members of the churches should only invest their surplus and that he felt very positive that this was of the Lord. The business consisted of manufacturing and selling an expensive motor home. This was certainly a very different meeting than anything I had ever attended. I and others left with our heads spinning. I was bothered and asked James Barber what was going on. He replied that Witness Lee was God’s anointed and I should be very careful about criticizing. He declared that even if Witness Lee was wrong, God would bless the endeavor.

Shortly after this meeting, Witness Lee was scheduled to come to Houston for a conference in late 1972. I planned to attend. By that time I had left teaching for a sales job. The night before the conference I had a dream. I was sitting in the living room of Ben McPherson in Houston with Witness Lee. The other brothers in the room were very clear to me, as was where they were sitting. Suddenly, Witness Lee turned to me and said he wanted me to work for him in Daystar. In the dream, the Lord made it very clear I was not to take the offer. The next night there we all were, sitting in exactly the right seats. Witness Lee turned to me and offered me a job. Thank the Lord for the warning. I never worked for Daystar and never invested a dime.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Elden1971

Daystar was the pivotal turning point for Brother Lee and Phillip and Timothy in the US. It is well documented of their previous business failings in Taiwan and the Phillipines.

Elden1971,

In the greater Ohio area, only whispers of Daystar were mentioned behind closed doors. We often heard how Titus Chu shielded us from things which happened in SoCal, and we were never given the impression that Witness Lee and sons bore any responsibility, rather the blame should fall on "those who left."

Obviously Titus Chu knew of the rotten side of Lee and Sons church business ventures, since nearly no brother from here was cheated by Daystar. TC obviously knew of their previous failings in Taiwan. He probably blamed the sons in order to maintain his pristine image of Lee.

You say "well documented" but actually very little is known on this forum. We have heard that the church in Taipei rejected Lee because he sold church property owned by Hall #1 to pay off a bad personal debt. Chinese saints, like Samuel Chang, who came to the USA said very little about this part of Lee's history, which opened the door wide open for American saints to be swindled.

[Cal]

Thank you for your firsthand report, Terry. This information is very convincing.

If the Internet had been around in the 1960s, Witness Lee would have never gotten off the ground in America. The dirt would have leaked out and been impossible to ignore.