Why People Leave

[GoodLand]

Originally Posted by Trapped

Unreg #3, I appreciate that you put value in understanding why people leave. I think it's immensely valuable too. I've spoken to many church kids about it, and there are always some painful feelings and experiences and realizations that go along with their unhappiness in the church. They are usually unhappy for quite some time but feel trapped because of the teachings that make them afraid and fearful of leaving to attend another church or to take a break.

What have you discovered in your browsing about why people leave, and do you think there is any validity to those reasons, or any reason to be concerned about them?

Trapped

Here is what I have discovered about why people leave.
1. Many church kids felt isolated sheltered by their parents.
2. There are numerous conferences that seem endless.
3. They feel that the teachings from Watchman Nee and Witness Lee are narrow, such as one church in one city.
4. They feel that the Local Church acts like they are the only legitimate church.
5. Many current church members were gained in college, and it's the parents that are concerned that it's a cult. Some of them go to FTTA, and their parents are not happy with that decision.
6. I even read Jo Casteel's open letter about leaving the Lord's recovery and have it saved. I was attacked for my Facebook response, but I just shook it off.

Yes, there is some validity to these concerns. I have gone to some home meetings in which some people either go to another church or don't go to any at all, but we welcome them. I keep an open mind on things and a balanced life as I previously stated.

[GoodLand]

I have been in the Lord's Recovery for 10 years and plan on staying in it. I have been meeting continuously with the Church in Austin since January 2019. About a year earlier, I discovered this website. Out of curiosity, I browse through these postings to understand why many LC members leave, including many church kids, like yourself.

Here is what I have discovered about why people leave.
1. Many church kids felt isolated sheltered by their parents.
2. There are numerous conferences that seem endless.
3. They feel that the teachings from Watchman Nee and Witness Lee are narrow, such as one church in one city.
4. They feel that the Local Church acts like they are the only legitimate church.
5. Many current church members were gained in college, and it's the parents that are concerned that it's a cult. Some of them go to FTTA, and their parents are not happy with that decision.
6. I even read Jo Casteel's open letter about leaving the Lord's recovery and have it saved. I was attacked for my Facebook response, but I just shook it off.

Yes, there is some validity to these concerns. I have gone to some home meetings in which some people either go to another church or don't go to any at all, but we welcome them. I keep an open mind on things and a balanced life as I previously stated.

[UtahGiant]

Originally Posted by GoodLand

Here is what I have discovered about why people leave.
4. They feel that the Local Church acts like they are the only legitimate church.
6. I even read Jo Casteel's open letter about leaving the Lord's recovery and have it saved. I was attacked for my Facebook response, but I just shook it off.

It’s not just a feeling, there are ample quotes in the ministry where witness lee says things such as:
- the church can’t be built outside the recovery
- Christianity is christless
- saints in the recovery are higher Christians than those that aren’t.
- if you aren’t meeting on the ground of oneness you’re not a legitimate church.

There are many more examples, I would implore you to use their search tool to find such quotes. These quotes go against lots of the Bible, and create a divisive attitude toward other image bearers of Christ.

Jo Casteel voiced her concerns and criticisms of the LR, and the leadership turned around and called her the spawn of satan, the voice of satan. Rather than fielding her concerns, they attacked her. Her husband ended up committing suicide. It’s hard for many people to subscribe to a ministry that handles criticism in such a way.

Your small group experience seems healthy, but it’s important to separate your experience with the LR, with their actual written teachings, and spoken teachings. Are you meeting with a church for the friendship / relationship aspect or are you meeting with them because their doctrine aligns with the Bible.

[GoodLand]

Yes, I am aware of how the Church in Knoxville attacked Jo Casteel for voicing concerns about the Local Church, and her husband ended up committing suicide.

I am continuing to meeting with the local church because I like the fellowship and the up to date speaking in conferences and trainings. Those messages eventually go into the Holy Word for Morning Revival. For example, we have talked about musing on the Word and praying it back to the Lord. Also, I follow a Bible reading schedule. In addition, I like the footnotes in the Recovery version because they help me to understand the Bible better. My favorite part of the Lord's recovery is being able to prophesy for up to 2 minutes from the reading for the week and listening to other saints' enjoyments. That's why I look forward to prophesying meetings every week.

[UtahGiant]

Originally Posted by GoodLand

Yes, I am aware of how the Church in Knoxville attacked Jo Casteel for voicing concerns about the Local Church, and her husband ended up committing suicide.

The leaders of LSM attacked her, not just her local church. Ron k, Minoru Chen, and a few more. The ministry that the local churches subscribe to attacked someone who spoke against them. They have a history of this, they even have an entire litigation arm called defense and confirmation. They use this arm to perform lawsuits against other Christians who speak negatively of them. This is very unbiblical. Did Jesus attack those who crucified him? Did he tell people on the sermon on the mount to instead turn the other cheek, take them to court.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by UtahGiant

Jo Casteel voiced her concerns and criticisms of the LR, and the leadership turned around and called her the spawn of satan, the voice of satan. Rather than fielding her concerns, they attacked her. Her husband ended up committing suicide. It’s hard for many people to subscribe to a ministry that handles criticism in such a way.

Sister Jo Casteel was a medical professional. She has an oath that demands that she report such abuses. She was condemned and branded by LSM for simply doing her duty.

This is why those who remain in the LC, especially in some responsibility, must learn to silence the voice of their conscience and close off their minds to such conflicts which create cognitive dissonance.

Apostle Paul, however, publicly declared that he had always exercised a good conscience. He obeyed and pleased God rather than man. Thus he admonished Timothy to "hold faith and a good conscience," warning about others who had become "shipwrecked."

History tells us many who lead religious organizations have readily fooled their followers, yet they themselves are shipwrecked concerning the faith, having never repented. LSM leaders regularly point out such in Christianity, but they should look in the mirror.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by UtahGiant

The leaders of LSM attacked her, not just her local church. Ron k, Minoru Chen, and a few more. The ministry that the local churches subscribe to attacked someone who spoke against them. They have a history of this, they even have an entire litigation arm called defense and confirmation. They use this arm to perform lawsuits against other Christians who speak negatively of them. This is very unbiblical.

Not only do they litigate and slander those who expose sin, but they will do the same to those who merely "differ" in minuscule matters.

I served actively and positively in Ohio area LC's for decades. Then the Blendeds excommunicated our region for meany matters like using contemporary Christian music instead of exclusively their hymnal, publishing periodicals instead of only LSM's books, and not filling church quotas for LSM's various trainings. They used Lee's teachings to justify lawsuits and underhanded tactics, dividing every church for spoils, yet never used one verse from scripture.

The Blendeds merely have a facade of holiness, but deny its power. Paul tells us to "turn away from such ones." (2 Tm 3.5). Paul also tells us to "mark such ones who make divisions and causes of stumbling." (Rm 16.17-18)

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Then the Blendeds excommunicated our region for meany matters like using contemporary Christian music instead of exclusively their hymnal.....

You want to hear some hypocrisy and irony? Some localities with campus works actually purposefully sing contemporary Christian songs (think: the band Casting Crowns or any number of groups on current Christian radio) in the meetings they use to capture college students to draw them in. They then switch over to LSM songs, of course, once the college students are "connected" enough to the full-timers, etc so they won't notice the switch.

One year they excommunicate churches for doing something; later on they use that same tactic to trick people to joining them.....withholding the fact that they think and teach that the songs they use to grab people are "Christless".

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by GoodLand

Here is what I have discovered about why people leave.
4. They feel that the Local Church acts like they are the only legitimate church.
5. Many current church members were gained in college, and it's the parents that are concerned that it's a cult. Some of them go to FTTA, and their parents are not happy with that decision.

Yes, there is some validity to these concerns. I have gone to some home meetings in which some people either go to another church or don't go to any at all, but we welcome them. I keep an open mind on things and a balanced life as I previously stated.

GoodLand,

I agree with UtahGiant that it's not simply "they feel". It is the explicit teaching, understanding, and viewpoint within the local church that they are the only legitimate church. Here's a couple examples:

One day, the bride, the wife of the Lamb, will be ready. But if there were no church life on earth today, how could the bride be prepared? It would be impossible. Could the bride be prepared in the Catholic Church or in the denominations? No! Could she be prepared in the free groups or in the charismatic movement? Certainly not! I believe strongly, not because I am in it but because I have seen the vision, that the Lord intends to spread His recovery to build up the proper church life throughout the world so that His bride might be made ready.
-Young People's Training, Witness Lee

Use a little God-given reasoning here. If Witness Lee teaches, and all the members follow his teaching, that the bride is not being prepared in the Catholic Church, in denominations, in free groups, or in the charismatic movement, but is being prepared in the recovery (i.e. in the local church), and the recovery is where the "proper church life" (i.e. other places do not have the "proper" church life) ...... then the local church is the only legitimate, bride-building church, according to the direct teaching of the local church. Aaaaalllllllll other Christians are not part of the bride being prepared!

The Lord’s building of His church began on the day of Pentecost (Acts 2:1-4, 41-42). Yet the Lord’s prophecy here still has not been fulfilled, even up to the twentieth century. The Lord is not building His church in Christendom, which is composed of the apostate Roman Catholic Church and the Protestant denominations. This prophecy is being fulfilled through the Lord’s recovery, in which the building of the genuine church is being accomplished.
-Recovery Version's footnote 4 of Matthew 16:18

And here Lee is more explicit. He claims the Lord is not building His church in Christendom......[in] the Protestant denominations. This prophecy, the building of the church, is being fulfilled through the Lord's recovery, i.e. the local church. In the local church, Lee teaches, is where the "genuine" church is being built.

If the "genuine" church is only being built in the local church, then the direct parallel is that all other non-local church churches are not genuine. And what do we call something that is not genuine?

Fake. False.

In other words, all other churches are false, and the local church is the only genuine church.

It is not a matter of former members "feeling" that the local church acts it's the only legitimate church. It is the black-and-white, explicitly spoken, printed-on-the-page, taught over and over, understood by all the members teaching, perspective, and practice of the local church.

I'm a church kid. I grew up in it for decades. I know exactly what's taught and what's understood.

The confusing thing is that if you press anyone on this issue, they will say something that can't go hand-in-hand with this teaching, like "Oh, well, there are genuine believers in denominations!"

This is cognitive dissonance. Holding two contradictory beliefs that cannot stand together and both be true.

Because what this means when you put it together, GoodLand, is that there are millions of genuine believers all over the globe who are not in the local church, and yet....somehow......these believers for whom Holy Spirit has also come upon them just like you, for whom the same God who will never leave them because they are His children just like He won't leave you, and for whom the Son of God died so they would not perish, just like you......all of these holy truths about those believers are rendered ineffectual simply because they are not part of your group. They have missed out on what REALLY makes them part of the church.

Accepting Jesus as their Savior isn't enough. They aren't part of the genuine church if they aren't part of the local church that follows Witness Lee.

And these logical conclusions drawn from the local church's beliefs are a massive affront to God.

Do you believe that? And if you don't believe that, is simply enjoying what people say for a few minutes every Sunday enough to stay part of a group who's beliefs carry those kind of un-Christian implications?

This belief, among many, many others, is also one of the reasons the local church is called a cult. Because this "only us" belief is a marker of a cult. And there is no way around it. It's literally in print.

Trapped

P.S. Although saints from DCP (the legal entity that defends LSM) have been pretty quiet on this forum for over a year, I have to assume they still monitor the forum regularly. It is entirely possible, GoodLand, that the brothers in DCP will contact the elders in Austin to notify them that you are on this website. You have given enough information about yourself that you are probably identifiable by someone in that locality. The elders might not do anything unless it looks like you are "speaking negatively", or they might approach you. This strange, paranoid monitoring of a website where people are simply talking about the truth of a group.......is also a marker of a very unhealthy group.

I sincerely hope you will continue the conversation. Acts 15 shows us that the apostles did not shy away from debate, discussion and even "sharp dispute". If the local churches are in the light, there should be no problem discussing these things in the light.

Hey Goodland, I saw your post detailing why you like the LC and I would like to offer my experiences and I am sure many others regarding the specifics you mentioned.

Here is your post-

Originally Posted by GoodLand

Yes, I am aware of how the Church in Knoxville attacked Jo Casteel for voicing concerns about the Local Church, and her husband ended up committing suicide.
I am continuing to meeting with the local church because I like the fellowship and the up to date speaking in conferences and trainings. Those messages eventually go into the Holy Word for Morning Revival. For example, we have talked about musing on the Word and praying it back to the Lord. Also, I follow a Bible reading schedule. In addition, I like the footnotes in the Recovery version because they help me to understand the Bible better. My favorite part of the Lord's recovery is being able to prophesy for up to 2 minutes from the reading for the week and listening to other saints' enjoyments. That's why I look forward to prophesying meetings every week.

My Response-
1. I disagree wholeheartedly about the "up to date speaking". First of all they just robotically repeat a man’s ministry from the twentieth century and continue to do so as long as they can (not very up to date......). Also, Lee ministry has a very unbiblical nature, which is just unappealing to me.

2. Pray reading- Is just some weird cultural practice that developed in the 60s in Anaheim California (Source- Don Rutledge). I mean it is just mindless vain repetition. I believe that we are not some bird brain low-capacity parrots that are uncapable of expressing our self to God. The lord hates vain repetition and I do not see the value of this practice. There are lots of practices in the LR that involve the key attribute of vain repetition and I believe it is just some tool to keep everyone a Lee robot.

3. Holy Word Morning Revival- In the lords day meetings, the individual is not prophesying. One can definitely critique a lack of sharing and engagement a person has in most of Christianity worship gathering today. But the LR is really no different and actually perhaps worse. In the LR, you are just a audio transcript, mindlessly repeating the word of Lee and at most just express how much you love the morning revival that you just mindlessly repeated a minute ago. You are a glorified audio tape of one mans word, and then you say how much you love those words. In essence, the lord’s day meeting really just is one man speaking, he just has a bunch of audio tapes repeating his words over and over again....

I remember this one time; this brother was sharing this one verse he liked. My memory is foggy right now and I can’t remember the exact location of this verse, but it dealt with Gods glory. The amount of disgust and looks of disdain he got from sharing the bible was just alarming to me. It was the first time I saw someone read a bible verse from the bible and all he said was "I like this verse" and he just read the verse regarding the glory of God. That’s all he did and there was no Amens, just pure silence and looks of disgust and awkwardness. Can you imagine not being able to share your love for the word of God in a time of day in which you dedicate yourself to loving the lord? I never saw him share something from the bible after that day. The elders most likely had "fellowship" with him.

So, prophesying= being an audio tape for Lee. But hey, at least you can say how much you love being an audio tape!

3. Footnotes- The footnotes made me understand Witness Lee nature. He died many years ago and I never knew him personally. But the word of God has this unique ability to really expose a person and reveal their nature and who they are. I saw which verses Lee had disdain for, had love for, and ignored entirely. I am sure maybe you can find some relatively useful footnotes in some places but overall, I just saw a man who wanted to shape the bible in his own image. If you were to submit yourselves to the footnotes entirely, you would succumb to a very twisted practice of the Christian life.

This my experience and many others and it is on the long list of reasons of why we decided it is not worth it at all to stay. It is a very despondent place in attempt to experience the on true God when they try to twist and manipulate the nature of our Lord.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

I remember this one time; this brother was sharing this one verse he liked. My memory is foggy right now and I can’t remember the exact location of this verse, but it dealt with Gods glory. The amount of disgust and looks of disdain he got from sharing the bible was just alarming to me. It was the first time I saw someone read a bible verse from the bible and all he said was "I like this verse" and he just read the verse regarding the glory of God. That’s all he did and there was no Amens, just pure silence and looks of disgust and awkwardness.

I had an identical experience when I shared the "wrong verse" in what had been a lively bible discussion - my sharing was from one of the sections of the OT that the RecV footnotes panned, and yet I saw a prophecy of Christ. WL had declared that this was just a vain fallen human being trying to be good and obey God. The conversation (myself, an elder, another local church brother) devolved into frozen and awkward silence.

And then when we see "I come to do thy will, O God - behold in the scroll of the book is written concerning me" do we say that this is a vain person trying to please God in his mixed human sentiments? Where does the NT give this interpretive grid?

[Nell]

From the time I started meeting with the LC, and observed people leaving, I mentally asked the question "How can they leave? Why?" I was having a good time, isn't everyone having a good time? I was new, and I was naive, but at the time, I didn't see any problems. I didn't question anything. But I never stopped asking "How can people leave?" "Why?"

Then I began to see problems, especially when the lawsuits began. We were told not to read "Mindbenders", "God-Men", etc. Somehow I got a copy of Mindbenders and read it. Hummm. Many of the points made in this book were actually true. I was not particularly bothered, but the guy was largely correct. What I didn't understand was that DCP was denying his accusations. Still pretty naive, huh? At one point, we were given a copy of J. Gordon Melton's analysis, paid for by DCP. As I read that doc, the lights came on. Perhaps all those times asking "why people leave" was really a prayer...asking the Lord why people leave. My prayer was answered.

I remember the exact words that came to me with the lights coming on: "everything they said about us is true." That is the moment I left the Local Church. Something was terribly abnormal and wrong. I began to plan my exit strategy. I don't know if I left the Church or if the Church left me, but everywhere I looked, I saw things differently. I didn't go looking for the problems, the problems were just there and that's all I could see...I couldn't ignore it.

The LC had a certain path that was obvious to outsiders. Those who wrote books about what they saw were sued and driven into ruin. Yet LC/Lee denied they were doing anything wrong. This is why people leave. They deny and punish those who see the wrongs and speak out. There is a policy: “If you see a problem, you ARE the problem.”

It was several months before I stopped going to meetings but this was the beginning.

There are many more reasons to leave than those that have been listed:
1. Many church kids felt isolated sheltered by their parents.
2. Endless conferences.
3. Narrow teachings by Watchman Nee and Witness Lee, i.e., OCOC.
4. Elitist attitude about the church.
5. "It's a cult" concern.
6. Jo Casteel's open letter. I was attacked for my Facebook response, but I just shook it off.

What was your FB response? Can you please share it with us?

UtahGiant mentioned the RV footnotes which Lee claimed to author. You might find this footnotes link interesting.

So, GoodLand, you have given us a list of why people leave, what do you think about these items? Are they legit?

Nell

[aron]

Originally Posted by Trapped

One day, the bride, the wife of the Lamb, will be ready. But if there were no church life on earth today, how could the bride be prepared? It would be impossible. Could the bride be prepared in the Catholic Church or in the denominations? No! Could she be prepared in the free groups or in the charismatic movement? Certainly not! I believe strongly, not because I am in it but because I have seen the vision, that the Lord intends to spread His recovery to build up the proper church life throughout the world so that His bride might be made ready.
-Young People's Training, Witness Lee

Use a little God-given reasoning here. If Witness Lee teaches, and all the members follow his teaching, that the bride is not being prepared in the Catholic Church, in denominations, in free groups, or in the charismatic movement, but is being prepared in the recovery (i.e. in the local church), and the recovery is where the "proper church life" (i.e. other places do not have the "proper" church life) ...... then the local church is the only legitimate, bride-building church, according to the direct teaching of the local church. Aaaaalllllllll other Christians are not part of the bride being prepared!

The Lord’s building of His church began on the day of Pentecost (Acts 2:1-4, 41-42). Yet the Lord’s prophecy here still has not been fulfilled, even up to the twentieth century. The Lord is not building His church in Christendom, which is composed of the apostate Roman Catholic Church and the Protestant denominations. This prophecy is being fulfilled through the Lord’s recovery, in which the building of the genuine church is being accomplished.
-Recovery Version's footnote 4 of Matthew 16:18

And here Lee is more explicit. He claims the Lord is not building His church in Christendom......[in] the Protestant denominations. This prophecy, the building of the church, is being fulfilled through the Lord's recovery, i.e. the local church. In the local church, Lee teaches, is where the "genuine" church is being built.

If the "genuine" church is only being built in the local church, then the direct parallel is that all other non-local church churches are not genuine. And what do we call something that is not genuine?

Fake. False.

In other words, all other churches are false, and the local church is the only genuine church.

In the local church they'll sing "A mighty fortress is our God" by Martin Luther and believe that this builds up the body and the bride. But if the Protestant group down the road sings it, then it's vain religious activity and doesn't build up the body and the bride. Why? Because the local church is 'genuine' and 'proper' and the other fellowship of believers isn't.

Yet hymn-writers Martin Luther, A.M. Toplady, Wesley, Newton and Cowper were all in that same 'degraded lifeless Christendom' that the local church leaders have held in such disdain! Somehow when Watchman Nee arrived on the scene, their hymns could then only be sung profitably in a different group - his. So the local church both leans on Christendom for its own legitimacy and denies its [Christendom's] legitimacy at the same time. It's a bold maneuver when you think about it - audacious, really. And WL said that he didn't like people to be ambitious!

[GoodLand]

My Facebook response consisted of my background, how I joined the Church Life, and why I enjoy the Lord's Recovery.

I gave a list and believe these reasons have some legitimacy. Each saint has a unique experience. There are church kids and those who joined during college or at other points in their lives, and they are still enjoying the Lord's Recovery.

This is quite a condescending "gleaning" of reasons people leave, honestly. By that I mean, the list as presented is also a minimizing of the so-called reasons themselves. Most people who have left have done so at great cost and after much painful searching of the way they should take.

I cannot speak for anyone else. But you missed the point of why I left, at least, so I'll add it to your list. I left because it all became unimportant. The entire premise that there is one group with one official publisher that holds the key to fulfilling God's Eternal Plan, if we can overcome, etc., etc., is irrelevant to my life.

Ultimately, the High Peak of the Divine Revelation is irrelevant to me. Unimportant. Not worth my time. Fanciful fluff that has no bearing on my existence or destiny as a man.

Once I accepted this, I was free. Free to what? Free to rejoin the human race and carry out a simple idea of being helpful to people around me. And being willing to be vulnerable to ask some around me to be helpful to me. This has made all the difference.

Originally Posted by GoodLand

I have been in the Lord's Recovery for 10 years and plan on staying in it. I have been meeting continuously with the Church in Austin since January 2019. About a year earlier, I discovered this website. Out of curiosity, I browse through these postings to understand why many LC members leave, including many church kids, like yourself.

Here is what I have discovered about why people leave.
1. Many church kids felt isolated sheltered by their parents.
2. There are numerous conferences that seem endless.
3. They feel that the teachings from Watchman Nee and Witness Lee are narrow, such as one church in one city.
4. They feel that the Local Church acts like they are the only legitimate church.
5. Many current church members were gained in college, and it's the parents that are concerned that it's a cult. Some of them go to FTTA, and their parents are not happy with that decision.
6. I even read Jo Casteel's open letter about leaving the Lord's recovery and have it saved. I was attacked for my Facebook response, but I just shook it off.

Yes, there is some validity to these concerns. I have gone to some home meetings in which some people either go to another church or don't go to any at all, but we welcome them. I keep an open mind on things and a balanced life as I previously stated.