Why People Leave

07-17-2021, 06:02 PM

Hey Goodland, I saw your post detailing why you like the LC and I would like to offer my experiences and I am sure many others regarding the specifics you mentioned.

Here is your post-

Quote:

Originally Posted by GoodLand

Yes, I am aware of how the Church in Knoxville attacked Jo Casteel for voicing concerns about the Local Church, and her husband ended up committing suicide.
I am continuing to meeting with the local church because I like the fellowship and the up to date speaking in conferences and trainings. Those messages eventually go into the Holy Word for Morning Revival. For example, we have talked about musing on the Word and praying it back to the Lord. Also, I follow a Bible reading schedule. In addition, I like the footnotes in the Recovery version because they help me to understand the Bible better. My favorite part of the Lord's recovery is being able to prophesy for up to 2 minutes from the reading for the week and listening to other saints' enjoyments. That's why I look forward to prophesying meetings every week.

My Response-
1. I disagree wholeheartedly about the "up to date speaking". First of all they just robotically repeat a man’s ministry from the twentieth century and continue to do so as long as they can (not very up to date......). Also, Lee ministry has a very unbiblical nature, which is just unappealing to me.

2. Pray reading- Is just some weird cultural practice that developed in the 60s in Anaheim California (Source- Don Rutledge). I mean it is just mindless vain repetition. I believe that we are not some bird brain low-capacity parrots that are uncapable of expressing our self to God. The lord hates vain repetition and I do not see the value of this practice. There are lots of practices in the LR that involve the key attribute of vain repetition and I believe it is just some tool to keep everyone a Lee robot.

3. Holy Word Morning Revival- In the lords day meetings, the individual is not prophesying. One can definitely critique a lack of sharing and engagement a person has in most of Christianity worship gathering today. But the LR is really no different and actually perhaps worse. In the LR, you are just a audio transcript, mindlessly repeating the word of Lee and at most just express how much you love the morning revival that you just mindlessly repeated a minute ago. You are a glorified audio tape of one mans word, and then you say how much you love those words. In essence, the lord’s day meeting really just is one man speaking, he just has a bunch of audio tapes repeating his words over and over again....

I remember this one time; this brother was sharing this one verse he liked. My memory is foggy right now and I can’t remember the exact location of this verse, but it dealt with Gods glory. The amount of disgust and looks of disdain he got from sharing the bible was just alarming to me. It was the first time I saw someone read a bible verse from the bible and all he said was "I like this verse" and he just read the verse regarding the glory of God. That’s all he did and there was no Amens, just pure silence and looks of disgust and awkwardness. Can you imagine not being able to share your love for the word of God in a time of day in which you dedicate yourself to loving the lord? I never saw him share something from the bible after that day. The elders most likely had "fellowship" with him.

So, prophesying= being an audio tape for Lee. But hey, at least you can say how much you love being an audio tape!

3. Footnotes- The footnotes made me understand Witness Lee nature. He died many years ago and I never knew him personally. But the word of God has this unique ability to really expose a person and reveal their nature and who they are. I saw which verses Lee had disdain for, had love for, and ignored entirely. I am sure maybe you can find some relatively useful footnotes in some places but overall, I just saw a man who wanted to shape the bible in his own image. If you were to submit yourselves to the footnotes entirely, you would succumb to a very twisted practice of the Christian life.

This my experience and many others and it is on the long list of reasons of why we decided it is not worth it at all to stay. It is a very despondent place in attempt to experience the on true God when they try to twist and manipulate the nature of our Lord.

aron · 07-18-2021, 03:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unregistered

I remember this one time; this brother was sharing this one verse he liked. My memory is foggy right now and I can’t remember the exact location of this verse, but it dealt with Gods glory. The amount of disgust and looks of disdain he got from sharing the bible was just alarming to me. It was the first time I saw someone read a bible verse from the bible and all he said was "I like this verse" and he just read the verse regarding the glory of God. That’s all he did and there was no Amens, just pure silence and looks of disgust and awkwardness.

I had an identical experience when I shared the "wrong verse" in what had been a lively bible discussion - my sharing was from one of the sections of the OT that the RecV footnotes panned, and yet I saw a prophecy of Christ. WL had declared that this was just a vain fallen human being trying to be good and obey God. The conversation (myself, an elder, another local church brother) devolved into frozen and awkward silence.

And then when we see "I come to do thy will, O God - behold in the scroll of the book is written concerning me" do we say that this is a vain person trying to please God in his mixed human sentiments? Where does the NT give this interpretive grid?

Nell · 07-18-2021, 05:50 AM

From the time I started meeting with the LC, and observed people leaving, I mentally asked the question "How can they leave? Why?" I was having a good time, isn't everyone having a good time? I was new, and I was naive, but at the time, I didn't see any problems. I didn't question anything. But I never stopped asking "How can people leave?" "Why?"

Then I began to see problems, especially when the lawsuits began. We were told not to read "Mindbenders", "God-Men", etc. Somehow I got a copy of Mindbenders and read it. Hummm. Many of the points made in this book were actually true. I was not particularly bothered, but the guy was largely correct. What I didn't understand was that DCP was denying his accusations. Still pretty naive, huh? At one point, we were given a copy of J. Gordon Melton's analysis, paid for by DCP. As I read that doc, the lights came on. Perhaps all those times asking "why people leave" was really a prayer...asking the Lord why people leave. My prayer was answered.

I remember the exact words that came to me with the lights coming on: "everything they said about us is true." That is the moment I left the Local Church. Something was terribly abnormal and wrong. I began to plan my exit strategy. I don't know if I left the Church or if the Church left me, but everywhere I looked, I saw things differently. I didn't go looking for the problems, the problems were just there and that's all I could see...I couldn't ignore it.

The LC had a certain path that was obvious to outsiders. Those who wrote books about what they saw were sued and driven into ruin. Yet LC/Lee denied they were doing anything wrong. This is why people leave. They deny and punish those who see the wrongs and speak out. There is a policy: “If you see a problem, you ARE the problem.”

It was several months before I stopped going to meetings but this was the beginning.

There are many more reasons to leave than those that have been listed:
1. Many church kids felt isolated sheltered by their parents.
2. Endless conferences.
3. Narrow teachings by Watchman Nee and Witness Lee, i.e., OCOC.
4. Elitist attitude about the church.
5. "It's a cult" concern.
6. Jo Casteel's open letter. I was attacked for my Facebook response, but I just shook it off.

What was your FB response? Can you please share it with us?

UtahGiant mentioned the RV footnotes which Lee claimed to author. You might find this footnotes link interesting.

So, GoodLand, you have given us a list of why people leave, what do you think about these items? Are they legit?

Nell

GoodLand · 07-18-2021, 04:23 PM

My Facebook response consisted of my background, how I joined the Church Life, and why I enjoy the Lord's Recovery.

I gave a list and believe these reasons have some legitimacy. Each saint has a unique experience. There are church kids and those who joined during college or at other points in their lives, and they are still enjoying the Lord's Recovery.

07-18-2021, 05:50 AM	#3
Nell Admin/Moderator Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Texas Posts: 2,105	Re: Why People Leave From the time I started meeting with the LC, and observed people leaving, I mentally asked the question "How can they leave? Why?" I was having a good time, isn't everyone having a good time? I was new, and I was naive, but at the time, I didn't see any problems. I didn't question anything. But I never stopped asking "How can people leave?" "Why?" Then I began to see problems, especially when the lawsuits began. We were told not to read "Mindbenders", "God-Men", etc. Somehow I got a copy of Mindbenders and read it. Hummm. Many of the points made in this book were actually true. I was not particularly bothered, but the guy was largely correct. What I didn't understand was that DCP was denying his accusations. Still pretty naive, huh? At one point, we were given a copy of J. Gordon Melton's analysis, paid for by DCP. As I read that doc, the lights came on. Perhaps all those times asking "why people leave" was really a prayer...asking the Lord why people leave. My prayer was answered. I remember the exact words that came to me with the lights coming on: "everything they said about us is true." That is the moment I left the Local Church. Something was terribly abnormal and wrong. I began to plan my exit strategy. I don't know if I left the Church or if the Church left me, but everywhere I looked, I saw things differently. I didn't go looking for the problems, the problems were just there and that's all I could see...I couldn't ignore it. The LC had a certain path that was obvious to outsiders. Those who wrote books about what they saw were sued and driven into ruin. Yet LC/Lee denied they were doing anything wrong. This is why people leave. They deny and punish those who see the wrongs and speak out. There is a policy: “If you see a problem, you ARE the problem.” It was several months before I stopped going to meetings but this was the beginning. There are many more reasons to leave than those that have been listed: 1. Many church kids felt isolated sheltered by their parents. 2. Endless conferences. 3. Narrow teachings by Watchman Nee and Witness Lee, i.e., OCOC. 4. Elitist attitude about the church. 5. "It's a cult" concern. 6. Jo Casteel's open letter. I was attacked for my Facebook response, but I just shook it off. What was your FB response? Can you please share it with us? UtahGiant mentioned the RV footnotes which Lee claimed to author. You might find this footnotes link interesting. So, GoodLand, you have given us a list of why people leave, what do you think about these items? Are they legit? Nell

07-18-2021, 04:23 PM	#4
GoodLand Member Join Date: Jul 2021 Location: Austin, Texas Posts: 6	Re: Why People Leave My Facebook response consisted of my background, how I joined the Church Life, and why I enjoy the Lord's Recovery. I gave a list and believe these reasons have some legitimacy. Each saint has a unique experience. There are church kids and those who joined during college or at other points in their lives, and they are still enjoying the Lord's Recovery.