I love the local church

Most messages on these forums are anti-local churches. For more than 10 years, I am a member of the local church in a non-US, non-Chinese country. And, my experience in the local church is certainly different from the negative, suspicious experiences mentioned here.

There is some truth to some of the allegations, esp. the control and the attempt to fit the church into a particular pattern. But, it is true for most denominations. Every denomination has its own ways and you are supposed to conform. Try preaching in a Pentecostal church and the pastor would try his best to get you to stop.

I was born in an conservative Pentecostal family. My parents came in touch with Br. Lee's writings moves to the local church. I followed my parents to the local church. But, once I reached the local church, I fell in love with it.

The teaching, the hymns, the atmosphere in the local churches were so much different from the Pentecostal churches. A simple example is that I began to appreciate the book Song of Songs after I came to the Lord's recovery. Till then, it was considered a book that had to be ignored. Similarly, I never heard about the Lord becoming the life-giving Spirit till I came to the local churches. Neither did I know that Rom 5:10 is so rich and talks about the complete salvation of God. And, so many more things.

I also appreciate how the local churches encourage all saints to prophesy. Even today, I attended a meeting where one of the elders gave a long boring message. But, the prophesying after the message was so rich. I wish all churches (non-local churches) would stop the one man speaking and let every member function.

Also, the HWMR explains the Bible so well. Recently, we have been pursuing Psalms and you realize that the riches in Psalms are so vast. Similar to the experience with earlier HWMR on Song of Songs or Isaiah or all the other books.

And, the Hymns are so wonderful. They are not only about salvation or going to heaven or working for the Lord or being comforted. Right now, I am listening to hymn # 509 - God is in Christ to be my supply....

Like I said earlier, there are some flaws in the local churches. And, there certainly would be flaws or else we would be raptured. But, I have not seen any other church/denomination where I have seen a richer enjoyment of Christ.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Most messages on these forums are anti-local churches. For more than 10 years, I am a member of the local church in a non-US, non-Chinese country. And, my experience in the local church is certainly different from the negative, suspicious experiences mentioned here.

There is some truth to some of the allegations, esp. the control and the attempt to fit the church into a particular pattern. But, it is true for most denominations. Every denomination has its own ways and you are supposed to conform. Try preaching in a Pentecostal church and the pastor would try his best to get you to stop.

Like I said earlier, there are some flaws in the local churches. And, there certainly would be flaws or else we would be raptured. But, I have not seen any other church/denomination where I have seen a richer enjoyment of Christ.

Welcome to the forum. Please stick around and pick a name and register.

Sounds like you missed out on the recent round of quarantines, which seemed to bring out the worst in many saints and leaders.

I too miss many of the positive features in the LC's, like the ones you mentioned, and that's why I was there so long.

[UntoHim]

Yes, "unregistered", please feel free to register, it makes the process of posting a lot easier and faster.

Your point about "Most messages on these forums are anti-local churches" is well taken, at least by me. One thing I can tell you is that the reason for this problem is that most of the registered members are former members, and so this accounts for the lopsided number of "anti-local church" postings. There is a "cure" for this problem however - when more current members register and post we will see that lopsided number come closer together, and this would be a good thing. One of the major problems between current and former members is COMMUNICATION. And this is one of the major reasons for this forum, two way, back and forth communication! So please, take advantage of this venue, it is here for current members as well as former members. As the administrator of this forum, I will do my best to see that you are treated with the courtesy and respect you deserve.

[ToGodAlone]

I too welcome you to the forum and encourage you to register.

I just wanted to address one of your points regarding all members prophesying. You said

I wish all churches (non-local churches) would stop the one man speaking and let every member function.

This is something that I believe is a misconception of non LRC churches by those who have spent a considerable amount of time in the LRC context. I have been a member of several churches (all non LRC) in my short lifetime, and all of these churches did use the pastoral/elder/whatever else system and thus had the "one man speaking" every week. However, what I think some people fail to recognize (or perhaps are not even aware of) is that although there is a speaker every week, there are smaller group contexts in which every person has the opportunity to share (ie prophesy). And everyone is encouraged to attend these small groups so there is in fact no true "suppression" of each individual member's ability to speak about God's Word.

That being said, the reason for having the pastor speak every week is so that everyone has the opportunity to hear the Word preached by one who has been trained in Biblical study and who would therefore have a deeper insight into the Word of God than those who didn't have such extensive study. This actually happens in the LRC context as well, although it probably isn't as obvious. Are not the main speakers at trainings and conferences, and even those that "lead" or "facilitate" the Lord's day meetings those who have attended the FTT, the LRC version of seminary? Going back to the reason for the pastoral system, the Bible says that there are those who have been gifted with the ability to speak or teach and for some, their calling is into full time ministry as a pastor. The main function of the pastor is not only just to speak, but to help guide (or shepard, going along with the connotation of pastor) the members of the church. They are not necessarily above any other member of the church (although they probably have more administrative power, it is far from absolute), but rather are serving as any other member would in their own way. Not everyone is called to such things.

I guess in summary of this long rant, there is no reason to stop using this system because it is more beneficial for the church as a whole to have someone (or people) to guide them. In the case of churches who do not use this system, what happens? It pops up anyway. WL was essentially the head pastor and all the FTT graduates are the elders/pastors in today's LRC. What do they do? They guide everyone so that they conform to the ministry. You say something that conflicts with the ministry, you can bet that they'll be the first to let you know. In my opinion, the difference between a pastor (though they are far from perfect, like anyone else, let's consider the normal case where they're not corrupt ) and a FTT graduate is that the pastor helps the church conform to the Bible and the Gospel message and the FTT graduate helps conform the church to the LRC interpretation of the Bible. I realize what I have said will probably spark discussion about denominations and whatnot, but this is not my point.

[ToGodAlone]

Also I feel semi obligated to note your prior experience with the Pentecostal church. It's very possible that this being your only other church experience other than the LRC could have shaped much of your views on other groups "enjoying Christ" and whatnot. I've attended LRC meetings and those of denominational and non denominational churches. I can safely say that the LRC does not have a richer enjoyment of Christ than anyone else. Also regarding the HWMR, I have never needed such books to enjoy books like Psalms or Isaiah or whatever else there's a HWMR on. Perhaps I am a bit biased in this opinion, but to me it seems as though the HWMR teaches members of the LRC to focus only on the things that they want you to focus on. I think there's a topic on here regarding the HWMR on the Psalms and how there was one Psalm where half the passage was ignored because it did not agree with the LSM teaching. Now, I have not read the entirety of any HWMR so I could be wrong on some things, but if that was actually the case, isn't there something wrong there? There's also much talk about how the LRC discounts the book of James and to me, any group that discounts a part of the Bible is in some serious error. There is much I can say on these topics (and I'm sure many on this forum can say far more) but that's not really relevant right now.

I apologize if I seem that I'm attacking you in any way, I just get a bit perturbed when anyone mentions the idea of the LRC doing anything better than a non LRC church. Perhaps it's defensiveness on my part, but all the same I say all these things out of genuine love and respect. So hopefully no offense.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ToGodAlone

WL was essentially the head pastor and all the FTT graduates are the elders/pastors in today's LRC. What do they do? They guide everyone so that they conform to the ministry.

I agree that there are many benefits to having the opportunity for all to share. WL and the Blendeds have sold their brand of meeting for decades. If it was just an alternative style of Christian meeting, then it wouldn't be so obnoxious, but prophecying supposedly is the only proper way to meet, and the weekly speaking of some pastor is supposedly proof that all Christianity is pitiful and degraded. So I was taught for many years.

The down side of the prophecying meeting is the tasteless, doctrinal and uninspirational monotone that often accompanies it. There are lots of people who should not be given the microphone on a weekly basis. They are just not gifted to share with a larger audience than the dining room table. Many cannot hold a coherent thought, and many others get sidetracked by meany things. But more importantly, how can Anaheim know the spiritual needs of any church. If systematic, one-size-fits-all teaching was never used by the Apostles, then why should it work for us today.

With every upside is an accompanying downside. There is just no perfect, God-ordained way, contrary to the LC belief system. Jesus is our unique way, and the Spirit of the Lord can use an endless number of diverse ways to meet the needs of God's children. I don't believe that any way can ever be THE way, and I do believe that any way can be abused by those who are hungry for power.

The bigger question, in my mind, is -- what is the reason for promoting this method of meeting. Is it protection or is it control? We were told for years that prophecying will protect us from all the inherent dangers of the clergy-laity system. I bought into that reasoning, as did all of my colleagues. But who protects us from the inherent dangers of having only one man --WL -- teach? The Bible never promoted the ministry of just one man. Who protects us from the errors that WL introduced?

I have concluded that the real reasoning for WL/LSM's method of prophecying is control. What they are doing, in essence, is little different than the missals of Rome which I grew up on. Any Sunday of the year, I could go to any Catholic church in the English world, and basically get the same church service. By eliminating the speaking of local leader/teachers, and demanding that all the LC's use the same materials, the same format, and the same hymnal, Anaheim has effectively usurped control of all their member churches. That, my dear friends, is the very definition of a denomination.

Another important matter to weigh in on is the fate of all those gifted men of God who have come and gone over the years. Some were forced out via quarantines, some were shamed into obscurity, some refused to be bullied into submission, and others just left. Their voices are no longer heard in the LC's. How convenient! Nearly all of them left because they were silenced by headquarters. Ask them. It was WL's way or the highway! Our God, however, delights in diversity, and that is one ingredient sorely lacking in the Recovery. Our God also desires to raise up shepherds to tend to the local flocks, but so many dear saints have departed because the program structured by LSM did not help them at all.

The one common denominator of all those who remain is this -- they all are sold out for the ministry of a man. His own unique ministry is what holds them together, and builds the wall around them.

[Paul Cox]

Welcome to the forum,

It would hardly make sense for any of us to argue with you on the bases of your liking the Local Church.

"No, don't like it! Stop liking it! I don't like it, so neither should you!" LOL

I was recently in Taiwan and listened intently to one of my nephews tell me how crazy he is about the Catholic Church. It turns out to be the best thing that ever happened to him. Now I was raised in that system from Childhood to adult. I was very active in it. But when I got saved I came out of it like a bolt of lightening. I could have had a lot to say to him. But my days of trying to talk someone out of Catholicism are long gone.

However, for those who are zealots for Catholicism, and have nothing better to do but tell me that it is the original church, to which the Lord will be eternally devoted...well, then we can go to town.

If you like the Living Stream Church; if you are having the time of your life, then please go in peace. But none of your experience changes the boastful arrogance of the Living Stream Church, and certainly none of your experience in the Local Church changes their dark history, nor their blatant hypocrisy.

Having a wonderful time at a Catholic youth event does not change the historical fact of illegitimate sons following their papal fathers' footsteps into the Papacy. Neither does it change the fact that they still wrongfully believe that the Pope is the sole vicar of Christ on the Earth, and that they alone are the only church which has the Lord's full blessing.

So, "O Lord, Amen, Hallelujah" all you want. But that doesn't change any of the facts that have been brought out about Witness Lee, his dark deeds, and the Laodicean nature of the Living Stream Church.

P.C.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Ohio

The down side of the prophecying meeting is the tasteless, doctrinal and uninspirational monotone that often accompanies it. There are lots of people who should not be given the microphone on a weekly basis.

The bigger question, in my mind, is -- what is the reason for promoting this method of meeting. Is it protection or is it control? We were told for years that prophecying will protect us from all the inherent dangers of the clergy-laity system. I bought into that reasoning, as did all of my colleagues. But who protects us from the inherent dangers of having only one man --WL -- teach? The Bible never promoted the ministry of just one man. Who protects us from the errors that WL introduced?

I have concluded that the real reasoning for WL/LSM's method of prophecying is control.

First on prophesying. I can't begin to tell how many times I've heard prophesying that ridicules non-LSM Christianity and goes un-checked. How I see it is putting down Christians outside the LSM fellowship in order to build themselves up. This is not edifying. This type of speaking does nothing to build up the Body. Rather this is an example of risks non-pastoral churches take of opening up the floor without oversight.
Prior to 1987 I liked the format of prophesying which was basically testifying of your walk with Christ during the week. It had nothing to do with the ministry and much more about your Christian experience. The format change to HWFMR I can see merit to Ohio's post. When your speaking is according to a ministry, if there's a point the ministry is in error, then your speaking will be in error. That's the risk being taken.
The problems that have taken place in Great Lakes Area in the last decade, it's about control. Churches that deem it's not profitable for their locality were considered in rebellion thus needing replastered. Control in this indicates churches exist for the ministry and not the ministry existing for the churches.

[Cal]

Let me reiterate. The Christian life is all about how you treat God and how you treat people. That's it. There is nothing else. (Luke 10:27). LRCers lose sight of that, so caught up are they in all their high-sounding "rich" experiences. How they treat others is not that high on their radar. Case in point: lawsuits, quarantines, character assassinations, lies, callousness, treating people as means to an end, etc.

But with the Lord, the question comes down to, how do you treat other people, especially those who are different that you?

And if you do good to those who are good to you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners do that. Luke 6:33

Like I said, LRCers are great at doing good to each other. They certainly love their own. But show yourself a little different than them, become a little unlovable to them, and you become to them a persona non grata.

Even the sinners do that.

[SavedbyGrace]

Originally Posted by Igzy

Let me reiterate. The Christian life is all about how you treat God and how you treat people. That's it. There is nothing else. (Luke 10:27). LRCers lose sight of that, so caught up are they in all their high-sounding "rich" experiences. How they treat others is not that high on their radar. Case in point: lawsuits, quarantines, character assassinations, lies, callousness, treating people as means to an end, etc.

But with the Lord, the question comes down to, how do you treat other people, especially those who are different that you?

And if you do good to those who are good to you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners do that. Luke 6:33

Like I said, LRCers are great at doing good to each other. They certainly love their own. But show yourself a little different than them, become a little unlovable to them, and you become to them a persona non grata.

Even the sinners do that.

1. This happens everywhere. That is the only way to run an organisation. Even on this forum, if I start posting spam or do not stick to the rules, I will be quarantined.

2. You are making general statements about the local churches across the world based on your experiences or based on hearsay in a few local churches in a particular region. There are local churches across the world and every local church has its own administration. And, the elders/leading ones in each local church takes decisions based on different parameters.

[SavedbyGrace]

Originally Posted by Igzy

The issue is the severe damage the movement has done to the lives of many through its heavy-handed wielding of self-assumed "spiritual authority."

This legacy is inexcusable and no amount of "rich enjoyment" on your part makes up for the pain it has caused. And it really is quite bizarre that you might think it would.

This, as far as I can tell, is something the members of the movement really don't discuss or take issue with. They hide from it, and pretend it's not there, like a wife turning a blind eye to a husband who abuses his kids.

Until you do something about it, until members take back the movement from the hands of the self-assumed few, you are going to carry in your consciences the guilt of being enablers of abuse. It's your dirty little secret that this forum is making not so secret.

That is the issue. Talking about your "rich enjoyment" is avoiding this issue.

I am not avoiding any issue and I do not carry any guilt about some brothers in some locality. As I said earlier, each local church is locally administered.

And, I do not understand about 'severe damage'. The worst thing that certain local churches in certain localities have been said to have done is quarantine people. How does it damage people?

Let me come back to Mr. X.
He was a senior pastor in a church and had members in the church he was responsible for. While he was in the denomination, the members of his church supported him financially. But, when he felt that some of the teachings in the denomination (clergy-laity, spiritual gifts) were not according to the Bible, he wrote a letter to the regional head of the denomination informing him that he could not continue in the organization and asked to be relieved of his responsibilities. The head of the organization accepted the letter and Mr. X left the organization. Within a month, the head of the denomination issued a letter to all churches under the organization asking them not to allow Mr. X to visit any of their houses nor attend any of the meetings.
Though Mr. X did not agree with the teachings in the denomination, he never preached about them while he was in the denomination. So, when he left the denomination, not a single member from the denominations came with him. He was alone and had to start from scratch. He had to struggle financially as well as he had no source of income. Today, he is still happy about the whole thing. And, I am sure he would take the same action again.

There are two things I want to highlight.
1. Mr. X does not regret the whole incident because he left the denomination willingly. He was willing to suffer hardships because of his conviction.
2. When Mr. X realized that he did not agree with the denomination, he did not try to create a confrontation. If he had preached against the organization while staying in the organization, it would have created a lot of bad blood with the organization and they may have had to expel him. But, since he left amicably, Mr. X has a good relation with the head of the organization till date.

So, I cannot understand how anyone can inflict 'severe damage' on someone.

[SavedbyGrace]

Originally Posted by Igzy

Nowhere does the Bible condemn systems per se. Everything is a system. LSM is a system, your local church is a system. Even the Body of Christ is a system. It's just the Lord's system. If I study the Bible systematically, that's a system. Since when is that a bad thing?

"System" is one of those bugaboo words that Lee set us against. The question is not whether something is a system, because everything is. The question is what kind of system is it and is it compatible with the Holy Spirit.

Being against "systems" allows you to condemn Christianity as a system, but exempt your own movement from being one, even though both are.

Like I said, the Bible doesn't condemn systems. Ephesians 4:14 condemns a "system of error," but that's "of error."

Condemning systems for being systems is just sloppy thinking.

Ok. I have to accept that all local churches are systems. But, that does not make it good. I know Br. Lee has spoken against the system. But I do not remember any particular message in which he says anything about systems.

When I read your post, I was reminded of 1 Samuel 7:8 where the Lord says that the people asking for a King were rejecting the Lord. From that verse, I understand that the Lord wanted the people to walk as per the Lord's speaking (through prophets). When the people wanted a king, the Lord saw it as a rejection of the Lord. The king creates a system, instead of letting the Lord lead the people.

Today, the Lord is not speaking through old testament prophets, but through the Son (Heb 1:1, 2) who was the Word (John 1:1) and became the life-giving Spirit (1 Cor 15:45) and dwells in us (Rom 8:11). So, we need to walk by the Spirit (Gal 5:16, 18, 25, ...). And, if we walk by the Spirit, we will not need systems.
In a perfect world, we would not need apostles or teachers either because the Spirit would be sufficient (Heb 8;11, Jer 31:34, 1 John 2:27, ).
Unfortunately, We have systems because we still have the flesh in us.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by SavedbyGrace

I am not avoiding any issue and I do not carry any guilt about some brothers in some locality. As I said earlier, each local church is locally administered.

And, I do not understand about 'severe damage'. The worst thing that certain local churches in certain localities have been said to have done is quarantine people. How does it damage people?

Well, imagine if you were a young, single brother. You got married in the LRC, your family and your wife's family are in the LRC. Your kids are raised in the LRC. Your friends and the ones you have known for 20 years are also in the LRC, meeting in different churches. Now you get "quarantined". Well if this is for sin or acts of the flesh you should repent and confess your sins and deal with them. But what if it is because you objected to PL abusing sisters while running the LSM. Are you supposed to apologize for that like the spineless elders in Anaheim did? So the damage is that they don't just say "you can't buy books from LSM anymore" that would be funny. No, they take your family and friends away from you. That is the cost you take for following your conscience.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by SavedbyGrace

I am not avoiding any issue and I do not carry any guilt about some brothers in some locality. As I said earlier, each local church is locally administered.

And, I do not understand about 'severe damage'. The worst thing that certain local churches in certain localities have been said to have done is quarantine people. How does it damage people?

One brother who served the church and lived in church housing was condemned as a conspirator and evicted from his home. He was living by faith. Now he and his wife became homeless.

Local church people are not permitted to visit quarantined brothers, listen to their fellowship, or even shake their hand as a brother in Christ.

Many families who were Christians in the Recovery can not talk to each other any more.

None of these "condemned criminals" did anything more than stand up for righteousness' sake. Who would think that Matt 5.11-12 would refer to the way LSM treated these brothers.

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Like I said earlier, there are some flaws in the local churches. And, there certainly would be flaws or else we would be raptured. But, I have not seen any other church/denomination where I have seen a richer enjoyment of Christ.

Here's the problem I have with your testimony, SbG. It's all about you feeling good and warm and fuzzy. There's nothing in it about God changing you or anyone else.

Let me ask you something. How are you with people who are different than you? Can you spend time with them? Can you see them as people the Lord loves? Do you love them? How has the Lord changed your heart in regards to people?

From what I've seen of LRCers, they are quite happy with each other. Why? Because everyone thinks and believes the same thing. No one rocks the boat. There are few challenges to your reality. It's all in a bubble, and when someone threatens the bubble, you all just retreat further into it, and boot out "dissenters."

The Lord didn't approach things that way at all. He was able to mingle with just about everyone. He was out in the community. He didn't see us and them. Can you make the same claim?

I don't see how, when your whole claim to fame is that you are unlike anyone else. Except when you want to gloss over your failings. Then you are (aw shucks) just like everyone else.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Most messages on these forums are anti-local churches. For more than 10 years, I am a member of the local church in a non-US, non-Chinese country. And, my experience in the local church is certainly different from the negative, suspicious experiences mentioned here.

There is some truth to some of the allegations, esp. the control and the attempt to fit the church into a particular pattern. But, it is true for most denominations. Every denomination has its own ways and you are supposed to conform. Try preaching in a Pentecostal church and the pastor would try his best to get you to stop.

I was born in an conservative Pentecostal family. My parents came in touch with Br. Lee's writings moves to the local church. I followed my parents to the local church. But, once I reached the local church, I fell in love with it.

The teaching, the hymns, the atmosphere in the local churches were so much different from the Pentecostal churches. A simple example is that I began to appreciate the book Song of Songs after I came to the Lord's recovery. Till then, it was considered a book that had to be ignored. Similarly, I never heard about the Lord becoming the life-giving Spirit till I came to the local churches. Neither did I know that Rom 5:10 is so rich and talks about the complete salvation of God. And, so many more things.

I also appreciate how the local churches encourage all saints to prophesy. Even today, I attended a meeting where one of the elders gave a long boring message. But, the prophesying after the message was so rich. I wish all churches (non-local churches) would stop the one man speaking and let every member function.

Also, the HWMR explains the Bible so well. Recently, we have been pursuing Psalms and you realize that the riches in Psalms are so vast. Similar to the experience with earlier HWMR on Song of Songs or Isaiah or all the other books.

And, the Hymns are so wonderful. They are not only about salvation or going to heaven or working for the Lord or being comforted. Right now, I am listening to hymn # 509 - God is in Christ to be my supply....

Like I said earlier, there are some flaws in the local churches. And, there certainly would be flaws or else we would be raptured. But, I have not seen any other church/denomination where I have seen a richer enjoyment of Christ.

Sorry for not addressing your post directly.

1. I loved my time in the LRC (I am an ex member) mostly because of the fellowship and hospitality. I was raised as a Christian, saved when I was twelve and have met with various Christians to this day (I am in my fifties) but I have never seen or experienced the level of hospitality, both giving and receiving, that I experienced for 20+ years in the LRC. This, to me is what made the LRC my family.
2. Along these same lines I loved the fellowship. I have had many positive experiences of fellowship with Christians, both in and out of the LRC, but because of corporate living and because we used to drive to trainings and conferences, sometimes on trips longer than 24 hours, the memories are particularly memorable from the LRC. This to me is where I feel I was really mentored.
3. I loved the gospel work that I was involved in while in the LRC. I was very active for most of my 20 years, both in college, in Irving, in Odessa and later in Taiwan with the FTTT. Some have complained on this site of the FTTT and the lame materials that LSM produced, to me it was no big deal to discard them and use the Bible. This is where I had some of my most memorable and awesome experiences of the Lord.
4. I also loved the fact that the testimonies of the saints were such an important part of the meetings. This is what I came for. Often I enjoyed the message, other times I slept through them, but to my mind the testimonies were what made the LRC home. You felt you knew so many saints who you might otherwise not have known.

That said, the constant promotion of all things LSM was not something I enjoyed. Also some of the teachings were absurd or at the very least obnoxiously arrogant.

As for the negative things: I never learned the details of Daystar until after leaving the LRC, I don't think it had any influence on my personal experience. I did learn of PL while in NY, I was eating with some elders and leading ones who were discussing a visit to the church by the LSM. They were all in disgust with PL and I felt I should be the one to speak openly about it to the LSM reps during the meeting. After all I had served in the LSM for many years. I didn't learn of the details about JI and others until coming on this site. I was in Taiwan when he left. I don't think any of those things mentioned about the church in the US during the 80s had any influence on my own experience.

However, I am an ex member and I left specifically because when I did return to the US I felt the church was very exclusive and contrary to the truth.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

I did learn of PL while in NY, I was eating with some elders and leading ones who were discussing a visit to the church by the LSM. They were all in disgust with PL and I felt I should be the one to speak openly about it to the LSM reps during the meeting. After all I had served in the LSM for many years.

Did you do that? Did BC agree to that? What happened?

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Did you do that? Did BC agree to that? What happened?

BC was not at the lunch I was referring to. I spoke during a public meeting with several hundred saints. I sat on the back row, this way when I stood up I could see the entire congregation. I likened WL and PL to Eli and the sons of Eli. By standing up from the last row it also sent a message that everyone in the church was aware of this behavior, though I did cover my testimony with a very small fig leaf in case there were new ones or others that didn't have to know everything.

Shortly after that BC gathered the other two elders together and told me I had to move out of Dunton House. A few months later I learned a trap was being set to create a scene that could be used to excommunicate me. From that day on I met regularly with the group I now meet with and only went to LRC meetings irregularly. After about a year I stopped altogether, except for a few odd meetings for my children and the funeral.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

BC was not at the lunch I was referring to. I spoke during a public meeting with several hundred saints. I sat on the back row, this way when I stood up I could see the entire congregation. I likened WL and PL to Eli and the sons of Eli. By standing up from the last row it also sent a message that everyone in the church was aware of this behavior, though I did cover my testimony with a very small fig leaf in case there were new ones or others that didn't have to know everything.

Shortly after that BC gathered the other two elders together and told me I had to move out of Dunton House. A few months later I learned a trap was being set to create a scene that could be used to excommunicate me.

"If we say that we have fellowship with Him and walk in the darkness, we lie and are not practicing the truth... If we say that we do not have sin, we are deceiving ourselves, and the truth is not in us... If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us."

[Cal]

I realize this is easy to say, but the rock-hard truth is that no changes will take place in the LRCs until the saints demand them.

Unfortunately, the members have been indoctrinated to believe "oneness" is more important than anything, even their spiritual and moral condition.

That kind of mentality is hard to overcome. Nigh impossible, because it's self-reinforcing.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Igzy

I realize this is easy to say, but the rock-hard truth is that no changes will take place in the LRCs until the saints demand them.

Unfortunately, the members have been indoctrinated to believe "oneness" is more important than anything, even their spiritual and moral condition.

That kind of mentality is hard to overcome. Nigh impossible, because it's self-reinforcing.

You're right about that Igzy, but the overwhelming number of personal situations and testimonies (including brother ZNP's next post) have proven to me beyond a shadow of a doubt that this kind of change is really impossible. Numerous factors are at work here, including the over-elevation of the teaching of oneness, (look what that enabled the Catholic Church to become) as you mentioned.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Igzy

I realize this is easy to say, but the rock-hard truth is that no changes will take place in the LRCs until the saints demand them.

Unfortunately, the members have been indoctrinated to believe "oneness" is more important than anything, even their spiritual and moral condition.

Igzy, this ties into what SavedByGrace spoke in post #48

"By definition, organizations are a group of like-minded people. When a person of a different views/opinions joins the organization, the peace is lost. So, it is better for the dissenter to go on his/her separate way."

In other words in order to keep the oneness (aka like-minded), you might need to bury your head in the sand, look the other way, etc even if the outcome is to sacrifice your "spiritual and moral condition".

So if you are not one willing to sacrifice what you believe in, your core values, your integrity, you've become a dissenter for your unwillingness to remain like-minded. As SavedByGrace said, "it is better for the dissenter to go on his/her separate way." It's because of my love for the saints in the local churches, I cannot forget what I left behind. Practically there is the need to press on, but still loving the brothers and sisters we once fellowshipped with.

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Terry

Igzy, this ties into what SavedByGrace spoke in post #48

"By definition, organizations are a group of like-minded people. When a person of a different views/opinions joins the organization, the peace is lost. So, it is better for the dissenter to go on his/her separate way."

In other words in order to keep the oneness (aka like-minded), you might need to bury your head in the sand, look the other way, etc even if the outcome is to sacrifice your "spiritual and moral condition".

So if you are not one willing to sacrifice what you believe in, your core values, your integrity, you've become a dissenter for your unwillingness to remain like-minded. As SavedByGrace said, "it is better for the dissenter to go on his/her separate way." It's because of my love for the saints in the local churches, I cannot forget what I left behind. Practically there is the need to press on, but still loving the brothers and sisters we once fellowshipped with.

I have no problem with what SbG said. But it's only part of the story.

What he left out is how the LRC kicks people when they leave. And how the members there have trouble having relationships with former members (or any other non-LRC Christians). It's black and white with them. Either you are with them, or you are against them. Either you are with them, or you are some kind of reprobate.

That kind of mentality is inexcusable, and I'm not surprised SbG avoided talking about it, because it's also indefensible. Unless he wants to say they are the only true churches, and then it's don the tinfoil hat time.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Terry

Igzy, this ties into what SavedByGrace spoke in post #48

"By definition, organizations are a group of like-minded people. When a person of a different views/opinions joins the organization, the peace is lost. So, it is better for the dissenter to go on his/her separate way."

In principle, I agree with this statement by SavedbyGrace. It's true. The Recovery is not for everyone. For 30 years I operated this way too, telling others that we had a certain commitment, and our own particular ways of doing things, and, though we welcomed everyone, we realized that not everyone would (or could) take the same way.

Every collection of believers and churches could say the same thing about themselves. What changed it all was all those "hidden things" which leaders kept secret. I'm not talking about leaders who took vacations on the sly, but the multitude of unrighteousness by LC leaders which have damaged the children of God. We all have to tolerate a little hypocrisy at times, but not crimes against the people of God. That was the game changer for me and for many others.

[ToGodAlone]

Originally Posted by Ohio

In principle, I agree with this statement by SavedbyGrace. It's true. The Recovery is not for everyone. For 30 years I operated this way too, telling others that we had a certain commitment, and our own particular ways of doing things, and, though we welcomed everyone, we realized that not everyone would (or could) take the same way.

Every collection of believers and churches could say the same thing about themselves. What changed it all was all those "hidden things" which leaders kept secret. I'm not talking about leaders who took vacations on the sly, but the multitude of unrighteousness by LC leaders which have damaged the children of God. We all have to tolerate a little hypocrisy at times, but not crimes against the people of God. That was the game changer for me and for many others.

Imo any church that treats people with different opinions the way the LRC does is more than not for everyone...it is really not for anyone. That kind of behavior is detrimental to the church and the body of Christ as a whole. How can you preach oneness when you slam all of Christianity and "organized religion" as Babylon? I've been on the receiving end of this rejection, and let me tell you it's just baffling sometimes, and hurtful in others. There are churches that aren't for everyone because of their particular practices and whatnot, but the LRC is a step beyond that.

[Abounding]

Quarantining is only the tip of the iceberg! Yes, it would be understandable to quarantine someone because of ongoing sin. I have not found that to be the case in my research. It is because brothers or sisters have not recognized the global authority. It is because brothers have written their own books, held their own conferences. Have you read these books? Is the speaking unchristian? unbiblical? What is it different from? It is different from the WL and LSM. How is this not different than a denomination with a headquarters, specific doctrine, a bishop, a laity? What quarantining shows us is there is a religion with a name, a leader that is not Christ, and it is hurting people. I only did this research after my eyes were opened to all of the other things in my locality. What LC members say and what is really practiced and believed is not the same. If I came to the meeting every Lord's day and spoke of my enjoyment from one of the popular Christain writters today, It would be frowned upon. If I shared how I enjoyed that all Christains would be raptured before the tribulation; what would be the local brothers reaction? If I said that I never want to go to any trainings or conferences would I be thought less of? Brothers might say, "no", but that isn't true. Quarantining is only one topic. How are you supposed to fellowship with a Catholic or anyone else if you have no grace or humility to other people's spiritual experiences? The LC is exclusive and seperate from the body of Christ. If you love the local church how much more you could love the whole body of Christ, the whole local church. (Christ loved the Church and gave himself up for her) I did not see the love for her by the LC. They may say they did but actions speak louder than words. I never saw them joining with another group to help or even evangelize and I do see that in other christians.