LSM/Blended Brothers Take Over of Mansfield

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Drake

You sound like the culprit, and a historical revisionist, who ordered changing the locks on the meeting hall in Mansfield leaving even the elderly folks out in the cold. Plenty of material there to talk about loyalists, invaders, deception, and stealing others property and liberty.

Pathetic.

Drake

How dare you sit on your high horse meting out condemnations on "poor, poor, degraded, divided Christianity, when you are complicit with far worse crimes.

Then you attempt to mock me for pointing out your hypocrisy. You and your people laid waste two LC's in Ohio -- Columbus and Mansfield -- and you think a few more accusations and brevity are called for.

Have you no shame?

[Drake]

Originally Posted by Ohio

How dare you sit on your high horse meting out condemnations on "poor, poor, degraded, divided Christianity, when you are complicit with far worse crimes.

Then you attempt to mock me for pointing out your hypocrisy. You and your people laid waste two LC's in Ohio -- Columbus and Mansfield -- and you think a few more accusations and brevity are called for.

Have you no shame?

Oh my goodness. Such chest thumping and bully antics! No doubt we are onto something here. Hmmmm.... That suggests perhaps we should drill down on this oft repeated rhetoric of yours about Mansfield. Get the truth out instead of giving you free reign to revise history about what really happened.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Drake

Oh my goodness. Such chest thumping and bully antics! No doubt we are onto something here. Hmmmm.... That suggests perhaps we should drill down on this oft repeated rhetoric of yours about Mansfield. Get the truth out instead of giving you free reign to revise history about what really happened.

Mansfield was the first LC in Ohio, always a collection of precious older saints -- unable to stand against the experienced and well-funded legal team of LSM called the "Defense and Confirmation Project."

What your buddies from Anaheim did to them was pathetic. You gathered up a bunch of ex-members, offered them incentives, and pitted them against those faithful ones who had no heart of fight their brothers and sisters.

Take away the love of God -- introduce dogmatic legalism -- and what do we have? Your buddies at LSM/DCP.

[Drake]

Here is what actually happened your revisionist version notwithstanding.

The takeover of Mansfield by 4 newly appointed elders, without consultation of the church in Mansfield, by Titus Chu in 2006 is a sad chapter in that local church history. In a failed attempt to snatch the property the newly appointed elders from Titus changed the meeting hall locks forcing elderly saints to stand out in the cold on several consecutive Lord”s days. There were ugly and mean spirited bullying tactics and open confrontations in meetings by those who tried to take the meeting hall by force. Furthermore, they demanded obedience as they declared themselves “ the authority” to whom obedience was due. Fortunately, Mansfield saints who had devoted their lives and livelihoods to the church life there prevailed by God’s mercy, faithful saints, and eventually the courts.

Ohio often cites Mansfield as a poster child example of mean old LSM controlling churches. Nothing could be farther from the truth. Fact is, the people who attempted to control were sent from Titus on and for his behalf. This is documented history in spite of the spin Ohio tries to put on it.

Drake

[Ohio]

After the death of beloved brother Dwight Rader, other brothers were appointed to the eldership by TC. (Isn't that the LC way taught by Lee himself?) Besides that fact, nothing else Drake posts is trustworthy.

For those interested, posters Suannehill and Norm live in Mansfield, and their posts are trustworthy.

This thread "The Wild, Wild MidWest - All things Great Lakes Area and Canada"
also has info from several years ago.

Info on Dwight's passing and Mansfield starts around post #73.

[Drake]

Originally Posted by Ohio

After the death of beloved brother Dwight Rader, other brothers were appointed to the eldership by TC. (Isn't that the LC way taught by Lee himself?) Besides that fact, nothing else Drake posts is trustworthy.

For those interested, posters Suannehill and Norm live in Mansfield, and their posts are trustworthy.

This thread "The Wild, Wild MidWest - All things Great Lakes Area and Canada"
also has info from several years ago.

Info on Dwight's passing and Mansfield starts around post #73.

This post above attempts to divert from the events I have recounted as if the 4 elders appointed by Titus and thier attempts to steal the meeting hall never happened.

These events happened in Mansfield as I summarized and they are conveniently left out of the record in Ohio’s narrative because it does not suit his purpose. I suspect he knows very well they happened (and if he doesn’t know then he is not the expert in this region he purports to be) and yet he prefers to propagate the slanderous accusation that big bad LSM was the culprit and Titus and his 4 appointed elders were just helping out after Dwight’s passing.

He has for a very long time cited events in Mansfield without citing the facts.

Pathetic really.

Drake

[leastofthese]

I don’t have any first hand knowledge of what happened in Mansfield, we’re you a part of this?. Where is your evidence Drake? And how did Chu force these these poor elderly folks to stand outside in the cold?

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Drake

Here is what actually happened your revisionist version notwithstanding.

The takeover of Mansfield by 4 newly appointed elders, without consultation of the church in Mansfield, by Titus Chu in 2006 is a sad chapter in that local church history. In a failed attempt to snatch the property the newly appointed elders from Titus changed the meeting hall locks forcing elderly saints to stand out in the cold on several consecutive Lord”s days. There were ugly and mean spirited bullying tactics and open confrontations in meetings by those who tried to take the meeting hall by force. Furthermore, they demanded obedience as they declared themselves “ the authority” to whom obedience was due. Fortunately, Mansfield saints who had devoted their lives and livelihoods to the church life there prevailed by God’s mercy, faithful saints, and eventually the courts.

Ohio often cites Mansfield as a poster child example of mean old LSM controlling churches. Nothing could be farther from the truth. Fact is, the people who attempted to control were sent from Titus on and for his behalf. This is documented history in spite of the spin Ohio tries to put on it.

Drake

So brother Drake, your version doesn't doubt that a power struggle actually ensued. Christendom has a long history of those. We shouldn't be proud of them, neither side of it.

[Drake]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

I think you are most vigorously objecting to the word, "crime" right? I will admit that this may not be the most appropriate word. ByHisMercy, I'm guessing, is using that in a way to illustrate and emphasize how strongly they see the things which happened to them. "Crime" may be a bit inflammatory, but it is conveying a strong emotion.

Am I right ByHisMercy?

BTW - I found the Nee booklet after some searching.

Well, not just the characterization of so-called crime. Rather, this whole erroneous thought about what we think Gods love is toward ourselves and other Christians. At best it is a big misunderstanding and at worst it is a slanderous accusation.

Look, I agree with everything In that booklet. If you disagree with something then that is fair game to debate.

Drake

[Drake]

Originally Posted by byHismercy

This is most surely their best attempt to get us to obey their ultimatum to meet with the Lee ministry, and that alone. My excommunication came about very swiftly after I let them know that we were seeking another assembly, closer to home, outside their group. I personally would have never cut off contact with the saints we were close with...there would always be an open door for any believer, no matter the assembly, distance...I see no reason to separate....I truly believe in the one body!
.

ByHismercy,

I don’t understand what you mean when you say you were excommunicated. Do you mean you were shunned using the term Sons to Glory used? For one to get excommunicated is a serious matter. There is usually a public declaration of some sort. You said you were getting ready to leave anyway. If you wanted to leave and for some reason they wanted you to leave there would be no need for excommunication. You just leave whenever you feel like it.

Drake

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Drake

ByHismercy,

I don’t understand what you mean when you say you were excommunicated. Do you mean you were shunned using the term Sons to Glory used? For one to get excommunicated is a serious matter. There is usually a public declaration of some sort. You said you were getting ready to leave anyway. If you wanted to leave and for some reason they wanted you to leave there would be no need for excommunication. You just leave whenever you feel like it.

Drake

There may not be any "public" declaration. Things can be said behind closed doors, and all of a sudden one loses all her family's friends and fellowship and basically becomes a cast off.

It is just pathetic that Drake can continue to play the blame game, play dumb to all of these hurtful things, and continue to excuse his people of all their despicable actions.

[byHismercy]

Originally Posted by Ohio

There may not be any "public" declaration. Things can be said behind closed doors, and all of a sudden one loses all her family's friends and fellowship and basically becomes a cast off.

It is just pathetic that Drake can continue to play the blame game, play dumb to all of these hurtful things, and continue to excuse his people of all their despicable actions.

Hmmm, wow, Ohio, your insight makes me think you went through the same situation I did, maybe another version of the same story...? Amazing how many testimonies can be found online that are almost mirror images of my LC experience. We were cast off by one whom we had opened our home to....invited to come and live in our home...a person my kids call Grandma...our shunning is not a figment of my imagination. Their friendship and fellowship in Christ, I have come to learn, was a figment of my imagination...it was all one sided. Genuine on our part, faked on the LC side.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by byHismercy

Hmmm, wow, Ohio, your insight makes me think you went through the same situation I did, maybe another version of the same story...? Amazing how many testimonies can be found online that are almost mirror images of my LC experience. We were cast off by one whom we had opened our home to....invited to come and live in our home...a person my kids call Grandma...our shunning is not a figment of my imagination. Their friendship and fellowship in Christ, I have come to learn, was a figment of my imagination...it was all one sided. Genuine on our part, faked on the LC side.

Before I left the LC in 2005, for several years I studied Plymouth Brethren history, reading many stories of division and excommunication. The Lord gave me the desire to understand what had happened to us -- how could something so good become so bad? This highly contagious Christian disease of pride, exclusivism, and elitism had been around since the time of Jesus. The Gospel of John lists a few stories of shunning just to show us these painful events occurred in the 1st century.

On this forum, poster Indiana also resides in the NW. He has been treated as bad or even worse.

The LC disease is systemic, members from every area of the world have been outrageously treated just like you. Love for Jesus and brotherly love has long been replaced with love and zeal for a man and his teachings.

The Good News is that the Spirit of Jesus Christ is well able to comfort you and encourage you in your trials. He has been thru this before with many of His other children for two millennia. You may not get any "justice" in this age, but I guarantee that His grace is sufficient for you and your family.

[byHismercy]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

If by chance you come Scottsdale way, look me up! There's a good number of recovering Recovery saints here, who just love Jesus!

Thank you for the invitation, brother, we sure would love to meet with you folks in Scottsdale...

[Drake]

Originally Posted by leastofthese

Drake, from your experience with these matters. What could the LSM representatives done differently or better?

*edit- in regards to the the whole story in Mansfield

LofT,

You’re asking for a rear view mirror analysis of an event that unfolded over decades with a brother that many of us appreciated and respected. So, it’s really hard to know what action would have made a difference and when. Would nipping the bud of ambition decades earlier prevented the Mansfield event or one like it? As C.S.Lewis observed “no one knows what would have happened “. It’s a double edged sword. Taking decisive action too soon might cause problems and taking action too late might cause problems. Taking any at all action may cause a turmoil and taking no action may cause a turmoil. What we know for sure is there was a turmoil! Consequences follow turmoils. Mansfield was a consequence of a turmoil in a larger context (the Midwest). Even our precious brother Ohio who, I am confident , at his very core is a caring and loving person toward all Christians suffered as a consequence of that same turmoil. He dropped out. I’m certain everyone involved considered the question you asked at some point. If only this, if only that but there is no way of knowing what would have happened.

Representatives from 20 local churches met in Iowa City to fellowship about the situation in Mansfield after the takeover by Titus Chus proxy elders. In answer to your question I would say, more of that type of fellowship was needed in Mansfield, in the Midwest, and throughout the U.S. Yet, did that fellowship prevent the activity I described in #117 from occurring? Nope. Therefore, looking in the rear view mirror this we can say for sure, the Midwest turmoil was a test to us. God did not design it but he obviously allowed it. Perhaps, for the reason Paul describes in 1 Corinthians 11:19.

Drake

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Drake

You’re asking for a rear view mirror analysis of an event that unfolded over decades with a brother that many of us appreciated and respected. So, it’s really hard to know what action would have made a difference and when. Would nipping the bud of ambition decades earlier prevented the Mansfield event or one like it?

This has been the LSM talking point for decades -- blaming all others for the ambiguous accusation of AMBITION. LSM's basic premise is that only Witness Lee himself, pure as the driven snow, was without that dreaded sin of ambition, and all others, especially TC, are vulnerable to its prey. Problem is God has given man "ambition" for basic survival. Ambition is normal! No ambition and we all die! Where is the dreaded sin of ambition listed among the 10 Commandments, with all the gross sins of mankind, or among the works of the flesh?

Was Witness Lee not ambitious? Did he not send his proxies to take over the church in NYC? (see Stephen Kaung's account) Did he not send his proxies (Mel Porter) to take over Miami/Ft. Lauderdale (read awareness' account)? Did he not send his proxies (Francis Ball) to take over Rosemead? (Read Wang's and Hardy's accounts) Did he not send his proxies to take over North Carolina? (read Bill Mallon's account) This list, going back to Taiwan and China, is almost endless.

And you condemn TC for ambition? Did he not pray and act in concert with other Midwest leaders? Norm Minahan in Detroit and Dave Shields in Akron are just two senior brothers, well-respected in the LCM who had lived and served in Mansfield. They had invested years into the care of that LC. Were they not consulted, along with other workers? Drake, you love to isolate Titus Chu as some rogue actor acting independently form the vast majority of Blended brothers, but nothing could be further from the truth.

These Blended, Blinded brothers had nothing to do with the Midwest LC's, either in their origins or in their shepherding. One Blended brother E.M. never once visited the church in his home town! Not one time over 25 years. We even caught him shopping 100 feet from the meeting hall, and he was embarrassed that we saw him. We used to pick up his dear mother so that she could come to the meeting hall and watch him speak on the video. Did he ever care about the church here? Never! Not one bit! But ask ole Ed to write tracts bashing us, and he could really pump them out!

[leastofthese]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Was Witness Lee not ambitious? Did he not send his proxies to take over the church in NYC? (see Stephen Kaung's account) Did he not send his proxies (Mel Porter) to take over Miami/Ft. Lauderdale (read awareness' account)? Did he not send his proxies (Francis Ball) to take over Rosemead? (Read Wang's and Hardy's accounts) Did he not send his proxies to take over North Carolina? (read Bill Mallon's account) This list, going back to Taiwan and China, is almost endless.

Did Witness Lee’s proxies also file a lawsuit against these other local churches?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by leastofthese

Did Witness Lee’s proxies also file a lawsuit against these other local churches?

Don't think so. They were just able to take over those LC's.

As with anything wrong, Lee's bad habits tended to worsen as the Blendeds took over.

Lee filed lawsuits for the books GodMen and Mindbenders, which were pretty bad. The Blendeds, however, filed a lawsuit against Heritage House (going all the way to SCOTUS) for next to nothing in their book Encyclopedia of Cults. Then the Blendeds started filing lawsuits against Midwest LC's after TC was quarantined. The three I know of were Mansfield, Columbus, and Toronto, Ontario, being successful with the first two.

LSMers would always play the victim, "After exhausting all other avenues of Christian discourse, 'we had no choice' but to seek relief from the courts ..."

How about prayer? Righteousness? Honesty? Finally, as Paul admonishes, "why not rather be wronged?" (I Cor 6.7)

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Ohio

How about prayer? Righteousness? Honesty? Finally, as Paul admonishes, "why not rather be wronged?" (I Cor 6.7)

And there it is! Finally, when all else fails, we are "forced" to take Christ! (or at least, that's what should happen . . . y-all hopefully get what I mean)

[Drake]

Originally Posted by Ohio

LSMers would always play the victim, "After exhausting all other avenues of Christian discourse, 'we had no choice' but to seek relief from the courts ..."

How about prayer? Righteousness? Honesty? Finally, as Paul admonishes, "why not rather be wronged?" (I Cor 6.7)

Ohio,

And yet, you don’t take your own advice in the court of public opinion.

All,
In this thread an objective reader will observe that the timeline shows a takeover of the local church in Mansfield by proxy elders appointed by Titus Chu and only after the shenanigans described such as the meeting hall takeover, demanding that the saints obey the proxy elders authority, getting locked out of their meetings in the cold, implementing new unscriptural paractices such as having to tithe to partake of the Lords table, local church finances being diverted to Titus Chu’s ministry projects, and of course public bullying tactics like the coworker goading members in a meeting to “punch me! Come on, you know you want to!” ....only after theses events did LSM become involved.

And yet, In spite, of all those terrible and unscriptural things foisted on the saints in Mansfield, Ohio likes to use Mansfield as a poster child blaming Living Stream Ministry for jumping into the fray to help the saints who were suffering in Mansfield on the legal side. He himself left (2005) a year before the Mansfield events (2006) determining that neither the Lords recovery or Titus Chu were to his liking. Yet, he uses Titus Chu as a club to beat and slander other brothers, ignoring Mansfield history because it doesn’t fit his narrative , and defending those ungodly practices by the proxy elders and Titus’ coworker. Ohio, asserts that Titus is a “recognized apostle” and he also uses that as a club though he gives no regard to Titus as an apostle himself. He cites scripture charging others to “rather be wronged” but applies it only to those he opposes. He feigns disgust at appealing to the courts but he appeals to the court of public opinion. In other words, Ohio is not willing to be wronged.

For those reasons, I believed the facts of Mansfield history needed to be put on the table. Ohio will still blame and slander Christians in the local churches but an objective reader now has facts to show his criticism about Mansfield is one sided and uninformed. That is the only reason I brought these matters up. An argument of moral equivalency, Ohio’s favorite fallacy argument, cannot excuse the takeover of Mansfield by Titus Chu, his coworker from Detroit, and his appointed proxy elders.

Drake