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#1 |
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Hello all, I guess this is a spinoff from Origin of Christian God. Thanks to awareness, I have been doing some research on this topic. Feel free to start discussing regarding this topic. Some questions to start off are- were Lucifer and the Devil the same?; who was really the serpent in Genesis? Why is Satan protrayed differently in book of Job as opposed to later medieval views to his relation to Hell and Rebellion? How can these concepts be juxtaposed with other religions view of an adversary or a main bad guy? Feel free to ask and/or answer and add to the questions as needed.
P. S Quoting and introducing any non canonical bible book or other religious sources are welcome! |
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#2 |
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I've been interested in the Church of Satan (sorry, if you want more discussion on the ancient origins, feel free to ignore me, but I figured the Church of Satan would be a good place to get a modern viewpoint on him). From their website:
Founded on April 30, 1966 c.e. by Anton Szandor LaVey, we are the first above-ground organization in history openly dedicated to the acceptance of Man’s true nature—that of a carnal beast, living in a cosmos that is indifferent to our existence. To us, Satan is the symbol that best suits the nature of we who are carnal by birth—people who feel no battles raging between our thoughts and feelings, we who do not embrace the concept of a soul imprisoned in a body. He represents pride, liberty, and individualism—qualities often defined as Evil by those who worship external deities, who feel there is a war between their minds and emotions. We Satanists are thus our own “Gods,” and as beneficent “deities” we can offer love to those who deserve it and deliver our wrath (within reasonable limits) upon those who seek to cause us—or that which we cherish—harm. Side note: honestly, this sounds better than a lot of Christian pitches I've heard. Maybe I'm a Satanist? |
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#3 | |
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#4 | |
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And Satan went thru changes in the opposite direction, from a high ranking son of God, and in his inner circle counsel, to the Satan that temps Jesus in the wilderness, and to entering into Judas to betray Jesus. Then in Revelation a dragon, old serpent, the Devil, and Satan. That's quite a devolution.
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Cults: My brain will always be there for you. Thinking. So you don't have to. There's a serpent in every paradise. |
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#5 | |
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And correct, I meant devolution. I guess there always has to be a nemesis in any religion, including Christianity. Thats why the fact that some on this forum think christianity has no myths is preposterous. |
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#6 | |
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Historically, the transformation of Satan from the earlier Hebrew texts to the later ones and the New Testament ones seem to have been related to their exposure to Zoroastrianism during the Second Temple period.
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#7 |
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i’ll post later tonight
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#8 |
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So I’ve been reading this book sent by awareness and its interesting that the character of Satan developed over time to accomodate the political climate between the Israelites under Roman authority. Mark wrote that Jesus’ death was due to Satan sabotaging God’s plan and I guess it became to be read that way, but in reality, Jesus’ death was due to the Romans putting him to death. The Jews didnt want to get into any trouble writing bad stuff about the Romans so they created supernatural symbolism of the conflict between God and Satan to depict Jesus’ life and death on the cross
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#9 | |
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Ken Gemmer- Church in Detroit, Church in Fort Lauderdale, Church in Miami 1973-86 |
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#10 |
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I actually am not sure what to think. The book Awareness sent me was “The Origin of Satan” by Elaine Pagels. I’m only twenty pages in but he has told me he does not agree with some of the points made in the book. But I think it may be a plausibility that the gospel writers made it up. After all, Judas, the one who betrayed Jesus, his name literally means betrayer or something like that. I dont think he was a real person but maybe evil personified.
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#11 | |
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The Five Gospels: What Did Jesus Really Say? The Search for the Authentic Words of Jesus Paperback – I think I've got two copies. I'll try to find 'em, and will send a copy to you. It's by the Jesus Seminar. They break the five gospels - the Gospel of Thomas - into four colors ; Black, Gray, Pink, and Red ; black means Jesus didn't say it, and Red that he did.
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Cults: My brain will always be there for you. Thinking. So you don't have to. There's a serpent in every paradise. |
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#12 | |
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#13 | |
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Satan is a very handy tool. He not only deflects blame from God, but explains the unexplainable bad things that happen, and our bad behavior. Plus, we are duty bound to God to defeat Satan whenever encountered, or when we need it. A despicable example : we used Satan to kill and take land from the Native Americans. It was obvious by how they danced around the fire that they were worshipping the devil, plus they weren't people of The Book. We had to do it for God. Satan is handy like that.
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Cults: My brain will always be there for you. Thinking. So you don't have to. There's a serpent in every paradise. |
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#14 | |
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Ken Gemmer- Church in Detroit, Church in Fort Lauderdale, Church in Miami 1973-86 |
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#15 | |
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That bleeds into the need for a Satan later on. Sorry for missing your point. But I thought we were addressing the origin and evolution of Satan. Can you explain that? Maybe I'm the silly boy.
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Cults: My brain will always be there for you. Thinking. So you don't have to. There's a serpent in every paradise. |
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#16 | |
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#17 |
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Okay. You're not a silly boy. I didn't mean to insult you. I didn't think you'd take it personal. My bad. Satan must have creeped in.
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Cults: My brain will always be there for you. Thinking. So you don't have to. There's a serpent in every paradise. |
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#18 | |
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Also I’ve never seen awareness and zeek fighting in disagreement before- that was interesting. I think awareness was trying to say that unconsciously humans need a monster under the bed and that became Satan (psychological need). |
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#19 |
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So I have been reading Elaine Pagel’s views and it’s mindblowing. Fallen angels and Satan are basically symbols for the inner turmoil among the varying beliefs and sects of Jewish communities in the 6th century. Book of Enoch is basically a long allegory for bad Jews vs good Jews.Makes me wonder when the concept of an “angel” started, historically.
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#20 |
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So . . . I'm not alone feeling the same way? Hmmmm.
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Ohio's motto is: With God all things are possible!. Keeping all my posts short, quick, living, and to the point! |
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#21 |
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In his new life, Justin [Martyr] sees his role in the universe enormously enhanced; the stand he takes and the choices he makes not only decide his eternal destiny but engage him at present as an active combatant in the universal struggle between God’s spirit and Satan.
Pagels, Elaine. The Origin of Satan (p. 122). Knopf Doubleday Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.
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Cults: My brain will always be there for you. Thinking. So you don't have to. There's a serpent in every paradise. |
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#22 | |
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#23 |
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It’s a shame that the Book of Jubilees, Macabees, and Book of Watchers didnt make it into the canonical Bible. They offer perspectives on how Satan evolved as a personification of the struggles within Israel historically , esp in relation to under Hellenistic rule by the Greeks, the Babylonians,Persians, Assyrians etc. The Pharisees rose up during that paeriod and called anyone following the practices of foreign religions or cultural customs as not being Jewish or “God’s true people” and in turn were called “satans” (translated from greek and other languages they were influenced at the time).
Interestingly, this also is like satire literature speaking out against the greek gods and roman/greek mythology and other nations’ mythos where usually the gods mate with human females to create hybrids they deem as heroes (i.e Hercules, Perseus, etc). The book of Enoch take s a different approach and calls these human-divine hybrids as “monsters and giants” and abominations, in turn poking fun and belittling the beliefs of the cultures that were opressing them at the time I remember one LC high school conference where an elder wpoke with the “young people” and told us to be wary around watching Twilight (teenage vampire male and human female romances and other contemporary culture) since supposedly Satan is trying to inflitrate the young minds of the generation into accepting it as normal in preparation for the apocalypse, where the elder and i was sure the LC believed in the LC being God’s remnant to issue in God’s Kingdom and shouldnt be fornicating with such demonic influences of the “age”. He actually believed that Revelation was coming soon, God was coming soon. and that these human-divine hybrids will be everywhere since young adult fantasy novels are focused on indoctrinating the youth to accept having sexual relations with these divine beings (werewolves, vampires, etc, disguised by fallen angels) as “cool and normal”.I had too many questions to ask him but I kept my mouth shut b/c you know, sisters are not supposed to talk. This bothered me a lot at 15 years old. |
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#24 | ||
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I use eSword, a great free Bible tool. So I've got around 50 different translations (most for free) on my computer, and 8 of them have the apocrypha, with the books : 1 & 2 Esdras,The books of Enoch appear in no canon --> shame. The Books of Enoch can be purchased from Amazon. The Book of Enoch is an app that can be installed on your phone at Google Play. It can also be downloaded, or I could send it to you. And Serenity, if I'm not mistaken, as a plus, I sent you "The Lost Books of the Bible and The Forgotten Books of Eden," loaded with lots of fascinating alternative books ... but not the books of Enoch. Quote:
Does that mean the Nephilim will come back, and those naughty sons of God again?
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Cults: My brain will always be there for you. Thinking. So you don't have to. There's a serpent in every paradise. |
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#25 |
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What disturbs me most about the origin of Satan is that, originally, in the OT, God was way more fearful than Satan.
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Cults: My brain will always be there for you. Thinking. So you don't have to. There's a serpent in every paradise. |
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#26 |
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![]() In the Louvre there is a picture, by Guido Reni, of St. Michael with his foot on Satan's neck. The richness of the picture is in large part due to the fiend's figure being there. The richness of its allegorical meaning also is due to his being there--that is, the world is all the richer for having a devil in it, SO LONG AS WE KEEP OUR FOOT UPON HIS NECK. In the religious consciousness, that is just the position in which the fiend, the negative or tragic principle, is found; and for that very reason the religious consciousness is so rich from the emotional point of view. James, William. Varieties of Religious Experience, a Study in Human Nature (p. 20). Public Domain Books. Kindle Edition.
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#27 |
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#30 | |
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It came from James' statement : "the world is all the richer for having a devil in it." My thought on this was, if the world is richer with Satan then he's as important as God. So if not believing in God is atheism, then so not believing in Satan is atheism. We've got to believe in both. Believe in one is belief in both. Not believing is the same.
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Cults: My brain will always be there for you. Thinking. So you don't have to. There's a serpent in every paradise. |
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#31 | |
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Our world is richer with Nutella in it, but does that make Nutella as important as a human being or any other comparable non sequitur? |
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#32 | |
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Satan is a invisible being. Nutella is not invisible. Satan is supranatural, Nutella is natural. An please Trapped, tell me when the world got richer cuz of Nutella. I don't ever remember eating it. Is it eatable, or liquid? I guess I could google it. Just being goofy I searched the whole Bible for Nutella. Of course it didn't show up. But Satan did. Is the world really richer because there's a devil in it? I'm not a believer in Satan. What's that make me? Given there's a long history, widespread among cultures, of a devil figure, I guess that makes me a goofy devil atheist. Some, like CNN, say atheists are the devil. There again devil = atheism. If you believe in the God of the Bible, you've got to believe in Satan. And conversely, if you believe in Satan, as some do, you've got to believe in God. Maybe they're two sides of one coin. The book of Job implies that.
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Cults: My brain will always be there for you. Thinking. So you don't have to. There's a serpent in every paradise. |
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#33 | |
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#34 |
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Aaron shall offer the bull as a sin offering for himself, and shall make atonement for himself and for his house. He shall take the two goats and set them before the Lord at the entrance of the tent of meeting; and Aaron shall cast lots on the two goats, one lot for the Lord and the other lot for Azazel. Aaron shall present the goat on which the lot fell for the Lord, and offer it as a sin offering; but the goat on which the lot fell for Azazel shall be presented alive before the Lord to make atonement over it, that it may be sent away into the wilderness to Azazel.
— Leviticus 16:6–10, New Revised Standard Version Azazel?
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#35 | |
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Elaine Pagels brings it up in her book, The Origin of Satan : The Book of the Watchers tells the stories of Semihazah and Azazel as a moral warning: if even archangels, “sons of heaven,” can sin and be cast down, how much more susceptible to sin and damnation are mere human beings, even those who belong to God’s chosen people. There's other interesting references to Azazel in her book too. I've brought the above quote up for sometime : If the sons of God [Gen. 6] can't control their lust for pretty young women, how could I be expected to do so? Another reference: Such sectarians, contending less against “the nations” than against other Jews, denounce their opponents as apostate and accuse them of having been seduced by the power of evil, whom they call by many names—Satan, Beelzebub, Semihazah, Azazel, Belial, Prince of Darkness. These dissidents also borrowed stories, and wrote their own, telling how such angelic powers, swollen with lust or arrogance, fell from heaven into sin. Those who first elaborated such stories, as we shall see, most often used them to characterize what they charged was the “fall into sin” of human beings—which usually meant the dominant majority of their Jewish contemporaries.
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Cults: My brain will always be there for you. Thinking. So you don't have to. There's a serpent in every paradise. Last edited by awareness; 12-18-2020 at 12:44 PM. |
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