Origin and Evolution of Satan (hell, angels, etc) from all points of view

[SerenityLives]

Originally Posted by zeek

So you think that the Gospel writers didn't actually believe what they wrote about Satan?

I actually am not sure what to think. The book Awareness sent me was “The Origin of Satan” by Elaine Pagels. I’m only twenty pages in but he has told me he does not agree with some of the points made in the book. But I think it may be a plausibility that the gospel writers made it up. After all, Judas, the one who betrayed Jesus, his name literally means betrayer or something like that. I dont think he was a real person but maybe evil personified.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by SerenityLives

I actually am not sure what to think. The book Awareness sent me was “The Origin of Satan” by Elaine Pagels. I’m only twenty pages in but he has told me he does not agree with some of the points made in the book. But I think it may be a plausibility that the gospel writers made it up. After all, Judas, the one who betrayed Jesus, his name literally means betrayer or something like that. I dont think he was a real person but maybe evil personified.

I think it's time we get Funky ; as in Robert Funk and The Five Gospels :
The Five Gospels: What Did Jesus Really Say? The Search for the Authentic Words of Jesus Paperback –

I think I've got two copies. I'll try to find 'em, and will send a copy to you. It's by the Jesus Seminar. They break the five gospels - the Gospel of Thomas - into four colors ; Black, Gray, Pink, and Red ; black means Jesus didn't say it, and Red that he did.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by SerenityLives

I actually am not sure what to think. The book Awareness sent me was “The Origin of Satan” by Elaine Pagels. I’m only twenty pages in but he has told me he does not agree with some of the points made in the book. But I think it may be a plausibility that the gospel writers made it up. After all, Judas, the one who betrayed Jesus, his name literally means betrayer or something like that. I dont think he was a real person but maybe evil personified.

What one thinks about this entails a philosophy of religion. Are religious symbols like Satan and God invented by people due to social political forces or perhaps economic forces if you're a Marxist? To say that the New Testament writers invented the Satan narrative to exonerate the Romans in the death of Jesus implies as much. Doesn't it? And how far down can we go with this kind of historical hypothesizing? We know some things about the social political facts of the time. But what would do we really know about the writer of the Gospel of Mark for instance? At what point does knowledge shade into guesswork? What are the limits of the historical method for understanding the Bible? Cuz life is short and we're already living it, and we need to answer now.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by zeek

What one thinks about this entails a philosophy of religion. Are religious symbols like Satan and God invented by people due to social political forces or perhaps economic forces if you're a Marxist? To say that the New Testament writers invented the Satan narrative to exonerate the Romans in the death of Jesus implies as much. Doesn't it? And how far down can we go with this kind of historical hypothesizing? We know some things about the social political facts of the time. But what would do we really know about the writer of the Gospel of Mark for instance? At what point does knowledge shade into guesswork? What are the limits of the historical method for understanding the Bible? Cuz life is short and we're already living it, and we need to answer now.

Silly boy ... there's a monster in the closet, and under the bed. That's when we were kids. But grown-ups require a bigger monster, a universal monster, with greater power than the monster in the closet.

Satan is a very handy tool. He not only deflects blame from God, but explains the unexplainable bad things that happen, and our bad behavior.

Plus, we are duty bound to God to defeat Satan whenever encountered, or when we need it.

A despicable example : we used Satan to kill and take land from the Native Americans. It was obvious by how they danced around the fire that they were worshipping the devil, plus they weren't people of The Book. We had to do it for God.

Satan is handy like that.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by awareness

Silly boy ... there's a monster in the closet, and under the bed. That's when we were kids. But grown-ups require a bigger monster, a universal monster, with greater power than the monster in the closet.

Satan is a very handy tool. He not only deflects blame from God, but explains the unexplainable bad things that happen, and our bad behavior.

Plus, we are duty bound to God to defeat Satan whenever encountered, or when we need it.

A despicable example : we used Satan to kill and take land from the Native Americans. It was obvious by how they danced around the fire that they were worshipping the devil, plus they weren't people of The Book. We had to do it for God.

Satan is handy like that.

I don't appreciate your demeaning one-upmanship and your response misses the point of my post entirely.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by zeek

I don't appreciate your demeaning one-upmanship and your response misses the point of my post entirely.

Just explaining the invention of Satan. It seems innate that kids are scared of imaginative monsters.

That bleeds into the need for a Satan later on. Sorry for missing your point. But I thought we were addressing the origin and evolution of Satan.

Can you explain that? Maybe I'm the silly boy.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by awareness

Just explaining the invention of Satan. It seems innate that kids are scared of imaginative monsters.

That bleeds into the need for a Satan later on. Sorry for missing your point. But I thought we were addressing the origin and evolution of Satan.

Can you explain that? Maybe I'm the silly boy.

No I don't appreciate being insulted and since you have all the answers you don't need my input.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by zeek

No I don't appreciate being insulted and since you have all the answers you don't need my input.

Okay. You're not a silly boy. I didn't mean to insult you. I didn't think you'd take it personal. My bad. Satan must have creeped in.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by zeek

I don't appreciate your demeaning one-upmanship and your response misses the point of my post entirely.

So . . . I'm not alone feeling the same way? Hmmmm.

[awareness]

In his new life, Justin [Martyr] sees his role in the universe enormously enhanced; the stand he takes and the choices he makes not only decide his eternal destiny but engage him at present as an active combatant in the universal struggle between God’s spirit and Satan.

Pagels, Elaine. The Origin of Satan (p. 122). Knopf Doubleday Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.

[SerenityLives]

Originally Posted by awareness

In his new life, Justin [Martyr] sees his role in the universe enormously enhanced; the stand he takes and the choices he makes not only decide his eternal destiny but engage him at present as an active combatant in the universal struggle between God’s spirit and Satan.

Pagels, Elaine. The Origin of Satan (p. 122). Knopf Doubleday Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.

havent gotten to that page yet. have to catch up on all my readings 🙏

[SerenityLives]

Originally Posted by zeek

What one thinks about this entails a philosophy of religion. Are religious symbols like Satan and God invented by people due to social political forces or perhaps economic forces if you're a Marxist? To say that the New Testament writers invented the Satan narrative to exonerate the Romans in the death of Jesus implies as much. Doesn't it? And how far down can we go with this kind of historical hypothesizing? We know some things about the social political facts of the time. But what would do we really know about the writer of the Gospel of Mark for instance? At what point does knowledge shade into guesswork? What are the limits of the historical method for understanding the Bible? Cuz life is short and we're already living it, and we need to answer now.

You asked a lot of interesting questions that would require a lot of research and a thesis to write about. But I would say this- I do agree religion is a part of culture anc culture is influenced by political forces at the time. Just look at the Medieval times. The Catholic Church used fear (Satan and hell) to keep people in line. This also goes with the Crusades and the Inquisition and those witch hunts. So much of history is tied to religion, which is used to justify behaviors that eventually become part of our history books (Hitler and his getting rid of the Jews, bringing Christianity to fix the savages when Columbus landed on the wrong islands, etc. The fact is we do not jnow who wrote the Gospel of Mark. It would make more sense that there were multiple authors of Mark with a political and ulterior agenda/motive. They didnt want Jesus and his followers to be seen as dangerous and condemning the Jewish subgroups (who already had various beliefs) was a safer way to spread their message and accomplish their goal. Of course we were never there to confirm these facts but it’s like archaelogy; we can infer based on what was handed down to us. I wish time travel were a real thing but no one in our lifetime will figure it out.

Also I’ve never seen awareness and zeek fighting in disagreement before- that was interesting. I think awareness was trying to say that unconsciously humans need a monster under the bed and that became Satan (psychological need).

[SerenityLives]

So I have been reading Elaine Pagel’s views and it’s mindblowing. Fallen angels and Satan are basically symbols for the inner turmoil among the varying beliefs and sects of Jewish communities in the 6th century. Book of Enoch is basically a long allegory for bad Jews vs good Jews.Makes me wonder when the concept of an “angel” started, historically.