I was deceived

[Nell]

Nell's version + NewKJV
Gen. 3: 9-14 Then the Lord God called to Adam and said to him, “Where are you?”10 So he said, “I heard Your voice in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; and I hid myself.” 11 And He said, “Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree of which I commanded you that you should not eat?” 12 Then the man said, “The woman whom You gave to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I ate.” 13 And the Lord God said to the woman, “What have you done???” The woman said, “The serpent deceived me, and I ate.”

14 So the Lord God said to the serpent: “Because you have done this, You are cursed more than all cattle,

So ExChurchKid, I think it’s time to place responsibility where it belongs, for what happened to you. From the beginning, from the genesis, someone was out to get you. Us. All of us. What happened to you in the Local Church of Witness Lee, happened to all of us to one degree or another; one circumstance or another. Yours was particularly bad. So before we continue, I’d like to insert this thought.

I was deceived. I admit it. I repent that I believed the father of lies rather than the God of truth. I take responsibility for my choice to believe Witness Lee in contrast to the truth of God’s word. Regardless of what I experienced in the Local Church with Witness Lee at the helm, I believe Witness Lee was not the instigator. The same serpent who deceived the woman in the garden deceived Witness Lee. I also believe that the same serpent is active today in the LC leadership working his deeds of deception…pointing fingers at all who disagree with them/him. I believe that the same serpent is active today pointing fingers at our forum members, trying to deceive, and destroy any voice we might have or harmony we might garner. Because of the deception of the serpent, the serpent was cursed by God. But God didn’t curse those of us who stand for the truth of God's Word at the expense of Witness Lee and the LSM.

I made a choice, ExChurchKid. You didn’t. A choice was foisted upon you at birth. I’m very sorry that happened to you. I'm sorry for what happened to many "Church Kids" in your situation. I offer you my friendship and my willingness to help you if that's what you need and/or want. I can tell you the truths of living a Christian life as I've learned from God Himself, and His Word. The god of your agnosticism is not the God of Truth.

Because the serpent is the great deceiver, still, to this day, we blame each other, and point fingers at each other. We need to understand/remember who our enemy is, and who our enemy is not. The woman said “the serpent deceived me.” The serpent is our enemy. The serpent was more subtle than any beast of the field. I’m not your enemy. We are not enemies.

I had a terrible circumstance in my life a few years ago that drove this point home. Ultimately, the Lord Jesus helped me to realize what damage can be done by deception…by me even having a wrong thought and acting on it. He gave me this prayer: “Lord, please don’t let me be deceived.” I still pray this prayer today. Another statement I try to live by: “If you don’t know the truth of a matter, don’t form an opinion until you do know.”

For this, I give thanks with a grateful heart.

Nell

[SerenityLives]

I know this was for ex Church kid, but being a fellow ex church kid, thank you so much for your kind words. I resonated especially with the part where we were born in the LC and didnt have the option to leave until we were older. But thank God we both ( me and ex church kid and all the others) have escaped this negative system. It’s been a pleasure meeting and talking with you as well.

[Sons to Glory!]

Yes and amen! "We wrestle not with flesh and blood . . ." The fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace!

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Yes and amen! "We wrestle not with flesh and blood . . ." The fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace!

Title: I was Deceived
Can you please relate these verses to what I actually wrote? I wrote at length about deception. Is it possible that the fruit of Lee's ministry is... more deception?

Do you think Lee was deceived...in his treatment of others...those who were damaged by his "ministry"? The church kids.

Where is the fruit of the Spirit? The fruit we are dealing with here...the children of those who were/are faithful to Lee, is it remotely possible that this is the fruit of the Holy Spirit? Love? Peace? Joy? I don't see it. Can you elaborate?

Please put your verses into context. I'm asking for clarity.

Witness used to provide a list of verses that we assumed he was going to cover in his "message". At the end of the message, we were scratching our little heads...thinking...hummm...did I miss something?....the verses written on the board had nothing to do with the "message". Huh...

Help us out here.

Nell

[SerenityLives]

Hi Nell, I know this is directed more to StG but may I also respond? And maybe he can respond later as well.
In my opinion, seeing how the LC operated in Taiwan, I feel a major part of the “deception” was mixing in his cultural values and Chinese culture into the mix of Christianity (this can be seen with the chanting/calling on the Lord, like Buddhism, and some communist aspects (like covering up and no individuality), which ironically, Lee should have been more aware in the aftermath of Nee’s death in Communist China. But he was traumatized by Nees death and unconsciously and ironically continued a version of Christianity that followed tenets of communist values. I’m not sure if Im making sense, but this is how I view it. My mom was in fttt and she said they would wear red and drum in the streets to preach the gospel. Now if replicated in the U.S, it would look silly.

Lee’s biggest mistake (which led to deception) was doing what he felt was right according to the familiarity of his cultural upbringing (the outward acts instead of inward transformation).

You add these cultural aspects (of being silent) to the younger generation, it wont stick. thats why the younger generation is leaving in droves. and now they’re ex church kids who are broken and confused.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Yes and amen! "We wrestle not with flesh and blood . . ." The fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace!

Originally Posted by Nell

Title: I was Deceived
Can you please relate these verses to what I actually wrote? I wrote at length about deception. Is it possible that the fruit of Lee's ministry is... more deception?

Do you think Lee was deceived...in his treatment of others...those who were damaged by his "ministry"? The church kids.

Where is the fruit of the Spirit? The fruit we are dealing with here...the children of those who were/are faithful to Lee, is it remotely possible that this is the fruit of the Holy Spirit? Love? Peace? Joy? I don't see it. Can you elaborate?

Please put your verses into context. I'm asking for clarity.

Witness used to provide a list of verses that we assumed he was going to cover in his "message". At the end of the message, we were scratching our little heads...thinking...hummm...did I miss something?....the verses written on the board had nothing to do with the "message". Huh...

Help us out here.

Nell

Nell, my reply was meant to support what you said at a high level. I took your first post to mean that it's not each other that's so much the problem, but rather the serpent who is always lying - this is the root of it all. Therefore, we should love the person for whom Christ died and paid an incredible price to redeem from the evil kingdom of darkness, and not attack them as if they were the serpent/problem.

In interacting with each other in Spirit, the fruit will be love, joy and peace toward one another, not striving and contention. We will also be long-suffering with each other if we understand that each of us is precious to our Master - it is the unseen deceiver we are really wrestling with, not the other person, and we shouldn't get this confused. It is the lies of the serpent that causes division and that we are hoping to shed light upon.

Did I misunderstand your post? (upon reading it again, perhaps you were trying to equate WL with the father of lies perhaps?)

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

...Did I misunderstand your post? (upon reading it again, perhaps you were trying to equate WL with the father of lies perhaps?)

Yes you did misunderstand my questions.
No. I was not equating Witness Lee with the father of lies.

I asked these questions, which seemed pretty clear to me:
1. Is it possible that the fruit of Lee's ministry is...more deception? (Yes or No?)
2. Do you think Lee was deceived...in his treatment of others...those who were damaged by his "ministry"? The church kids. (Yes or No?)

To clarify, where is the fruit of the Spirit in the ministry of Witness Lee? Are these church kids not the damaged fruit of Witness Lee's ministry?
..

[Nell]

Originally Posted by SerenityLives

Hi Nell, I know this is directed more to StG but may I also respond? And maybe he can respond later as well.
In my opinion, seeing how the LC operated in Taiwan, I feel a major part of the “deception” was mixing in his cultural values and Chinese culture into the mix of Christianity (this can be seen with the chanting/calling on the Lord, like Buddhism, and some communist aspects (like covering up and no individuality), which ironically, Lee should have been more aware in the aftermath of Nee’s death in Communist China. But he was traumatized by Nees death and unconsciously and ironically continued a version of Christianity that followed tenets of communist values. I’m not sure if Im making sense, but this is how I view it. My mom was in fttt and she said they would wear red and drum in the streets to preach the gospel. Now if replicated in the U.S, it would look silly.

Lee’s biggest mistake (which led to deception) was doing what he felt was right according to the familiarity of his cultural upbringing (the outward acts instead of inward transformation).

You add these cultural aspects (of being silent) to the younger generation, it wont stick. thats why the younger generation is leaving in droves. and now they’re ex church kids who are broken and confused.

Thanks, SL--

I can't disagree with what you are saying. But I do think Lee was deceived before he made his biggest mistake. It would be hard to believe that a sober-minded man, enlightened by the Spirit with clarity and loyalty to truth, would do so much damage as his "ministry" has done, and not be deceived almost from its beginning.

I also think that Lee, et al, had no idea that what he was "preaching," in all aspects, would lead to the damage and destruction it would do to God's people. The damage and destruction especially to the children. Now they are dealing with the fruit of Witness Lee's "ministry"...trying to explain away its failure. And, as you said, why the children are leaving in droves. In fact, many leaving the faith. Leaving, having become agnostic to God Himself.

Here's a scary warning:
Luke 17:2 It would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were thrown into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones.

I think what's going on with the Church Kids is much worse for the LC than we realize.

How to not be deceived? Pray. Pray. Pray. It's not unusual for Christians to believe, because they are born-again believers in Jesus, that they cannot be deceived (which in itself is deception.) God's salvation does not protect, even Christians, from the wiles of the devil or believing a lie.

2 Corinthians 11:3 But I fear, lest somehow, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, so your minds may be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. Lee's ministry was so complex that we all depended on him to understand what he was talking about. We didn't need God, we needed Lee.

Thanks again for your reply.

Nell

[Sons to Glory!]

See below responses.

Originally Posted by Nell

Yes you did misunderstand my questions.
No. I was not equating Witness Lee with the father of lies.

I asked these questions, which seemed pretty clear to me:
1. Is it possible that the fruit of Lee's ministry is...more deception? (Yes or No?) Yes
2. Do you think Lee was deceived...in his treatment of others...those who were damaged by his "ministry"? The church kids. (Yes or No?) Yes

To clarify, where is the fruit of the Spirit in the ministry of Witness Lee? Are these church kids not the damaged fruit of Witness Lee's ministry? Yes - certainly would say so.

..

[ExChurchKid]

Nell,
It is very sweet that you created a thread for my sake. I apologize, but I don't quite understand, what is my takeaway here? I don't particularly believe in the serpent at the moment, or interacting with each other in the spirit. I don't even know what that is suppose to mean, or if it's something I even want to do. What I do believe in is interacting with each other as decent human beings (as you and I have been doing, I think!). Again, I'm sorry, could you explain? I was a little nervous about posting, but since you clearly meant this for my benefit, here I am.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by ExChurchKid

Nell,
It is very sweet that you created a thread for my sake. I apologize, but I don't quite understand, what is my takeaway here? I don't particularly believe in the serpent at the moment, or interacting with each other in the spirit. I don't even know what that is suppose to mean, or if it's something I even want to do. What I do believe in is interacting with each other as decent human beings (as you and I have been doing, I think!). Again, I'm sorry, could you explain? I was a little nervous about posting, but since you clearly meant this for my benefit, here I am.

ExChurchKid,

I guess when Eve said "I was deceived", its another way of saying "I was wrong."

I know it's hard to understand. From where you've been, and how you were raised---who God is and what He is about has been clouded. Interacting with each other as decent human beings, as indeed, you and I have been doing, is a good place to start.

In this case, we need to know the truth of this matter. Being unsure about the serpent, and the reality of the Spirit we can deal with later.

Your reply to me was excellent. Hold on to it. Print it out. Read it over. At some point read it to God, if you can. Tell Him you don't understand. Tell Him you don't believe in the serpent right now and you're not sure you want to. Everything you said...

I had an experience several (many?) years ago when I knew I needed to tell Him something, but I didn't want to. I didn't trust Him with it. I knew He would take it away from me. I just knew it. The best I could do was to tell Him...I don't trust You. This is me, and I don't want you taking this from me, and I think you're mean. This is who I am, and I'm pretty sure You are the one who put me here and made me like this. Sometimes, I don't even like you. He knew how I felt anyway, so I might as well come out and say it! He didn't zap me or anything.

Ultimately, I was able to talk to Him about it. As has been said before, "He didn't change my situation, but He did change me." It doesn't hurt so bad anymore.

I don't know if this even makes sense. Eventually, what I thought I knew about who God is...I was wrong. As I quoted before, Paul said "That I may know him...". That's what's missing from where you and other "church kids" were raised. Even when I was in "it" I wasn't helped to know God by that system.

I needed to "know him". I needed to know that I could talk to Him and say what I needed to say. He's a big boy. He can take it.

I hope this helps. It's not a very good answer, but maybe it can help a little.

Nell

[ExChurchKid]

I appreciate the suggestion, but...no, thank you. I was Bible bashed for decades in the Recovery, and then Bible bashed on an ex-LC forum. I pray as I wish, if and when I wish. Or curse, if I wish, similar to what you described. If God is the type of God I want to believe in, I agree with you that he wouldn't blame me for my insulting of him. And if he isn't that type of god, then I think he needs to be cursed all the more. But I don't really want to talk about it, at least not right now.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by ExChurchKid

I appreciate the suggestion, but...no, thank you. I was Bible bashed for decades in the Recovery, and then Bible bashed on an ex-LC forum. I pray as I wish, if and when I wish. Or curse, if I wish, similar to what you described. If God is the type of God I want to believe in, I agree with you that he wouldn't blame me for my insulting of him. And if he isn't that type of god, then I think he needs to be cursed all the more. But I don't really want to talk about it, at least not right now.

Understood, but I was hoping to answer your question, not Bible bash. We can continue to talk? Hang on to your post. It really is good.

Nell

[ExChurchKid]

You know who's Bible bashing me, and you know it's not you.

[ExChurchKid]

Nell, I would love to talk, really I would. You seem reasonable, and great, and truly what I thought a non-LC Christian should be. But others are ruining it for you.

[ExChurchKid]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

In interacting with each other in Spirit, the fruit will be love, joy and peace toward one another, not striving and contention. We will also be long-suffering with each other if we understand that each of us is precious to our Master - it is the unseen deceiver we are really wrestling with, not the other person, and we shouldn't get this confused. It is the lies of the serpent that causes division and that we are hoping to shed light upon.

I'm not sure what interacting with each other in the spirit means, but perhaps you should take your own advice and start doing that. You seem to provoke striving and contention, reject long-suffering and understanding, and choose to wrestle with your fellow forum members instead. I guess you aren't interacting in the spirit, then?

It's okay though. If you repent, God will forgive. And perhaps, so will I. Matthew 23:2-4 - "2 The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. 3 So you must be careful to do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach. 4 They tie up heavy, cumbersome loads and put them on other people’s shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them."

Stop putting the burdens on others, Pharisee.

[UntoHim]

Ok, same situation as the other thread. Nell is the thread starter and it was directed at ExChurchKid. SerenityLives chimed in with some very relevant issues. Maybe the rest of us can back off and refrain from posting/reacting at this point.
-

[ExChurchKid]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Ok, same situation as the other thread. Nell is the thread starter and it was directed at ExChurchKid. SerenityLives chimed in with some very relevant issues. Maybe the rest of us can back off and refrain from posting/reacting at this point.
-

I appreciate this, but you're going to have to do more if you want the forum to get back on track. Or get on the track it originally should have been on. I hopefully await an answer to the questions on my testimony thread.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Curious

I do think I understand, enough to respect your position. I have been through a similar journey myself, in a different context. StG has had another set of life experience that is valid for other situations. I have learned to respect that too, he may not be equipped to be someone who can be a lead in offering care to you right now. He may have strengths in other areas and I don't think it makes him a bad person.

I was once a mess in the middle of a Christian healing organisation. Some people could see me through my anger and pain. Some could not, even in an organisation designed to help the wounded!! Even some on leadership took my anger personally. It's good to lean towards those who can help, and be respectful but remain distant with those who are not able to help in yours or my particular need. And in releasing the ones who don't get us, we can see more clearly the ways they are trying to be supportive within their own paradigm. It actually helped me to heal when I did that.

I did find what I needed and the volcanoes that were going off in me did settle down over time. Trapped and I have both had help in the form of counselling and deliberately prioritising effort to sort things out. To recognise the depth of impact these toxic experiences have had on a person's life can be a huge and scary step in itself. Alot of loving support is necessary. My heart is to be a support and I not alone in that on this forum.

Curious,

I think you make some valid and important points. One point that ExChurchKid has tried to make is that she is not asking for "help". She has alluded to what I call "LC-speak" as something incendiary. StG is fluent in LC-speak. This is not an indictment on you, StG. I'm just asking you to pay attention to how others are reacting. If you really want to communicate, speak plain English.

Trapped has identified the phrase "I don't have the peace...". More LC-speak. There is a whole vocabulary of LC-speak that I react to as well. It's on my radar, but I try to keep it to myself. Some folks, Church Kids for example, can't. That might be a good 'nother topic: "LC-speak".

Your point, Curious, because of our life experiences, we may not be able to provide the support someone may need. No shame in this...it happens all the time. StG, because of your LC-speak, your efforts to respond to ExCK anyway have been somewhat "volcanic". You're not going to "fix" her. She will not soon be able to tolerate LC-speak. If you continue, you only make it worse.

So what to do? It's simple:
ExChurchKid, don't respond to StG. Don't even read him.
StG, don't respond to ExChurchKid. Don't read her. Go easy on the LC-speak.

We need to speak the same language...plain English.

Nell

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Nell

So what to do? It's simple:
ExChurchKid, don't respond to StG. Don't even read him.
StG, don't respond to ExChurchKid. Don't read her. Go easy on the LC-speak.

We need to speak the same language...plain English.

Nell

Okay. Thanks. Sounds good to me. I've not responded to a whole bunch of things for the reasons you cite - because it's obvious effective communication is not happening. This often happens when emotions are heightened. After all these years, I'm continuing to learn to take a break before responding, when things get a little "hot." However, I'm also being called out for NOT responding - seems I'm being an irritant either way!

And regarding the "LC speak" thing, I must say I'm not even aware of that in my words. This may be because for 20+ years I've been involved with what could be termed an exLC splinter group. I have a brother here, who was with the LC in the 60s, but hasn't been since, and he sometimes gets after me for LC speak too! I'll try to watch that, but again, it's hard for me to recognize. If someone could let me know when this is occuring, I'm certainly open to hearing it. (and please provide a suggestion as to how something might have been better worded . . .)

Thanks again for your efforts to reset this mess - it is appreciated!

[NZexCK]

Ahh, the oldest trick in the evangelical males book. When the conversations get too tough for them, just imply that females are too emotional for their own good.