I was deceived

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Yes and amen! "We wrestle not with flesh and blood . . ." The fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace!

Originally Posted by Nell

Title: I was Deceived
Can you please relate these verses to what I actually wrote? I wrote at length about deception. Is it possible that the fruit of Lee's ministry is... more deception?

Do you think Lee was deceived...in his treatment of others...those who were damaged by his "ministry"? The church kids.

Where is the fruit of the Spirit? The fruit we are dealing with here...the children of those who were/are faithful to Lee, is it remotely possible that this is the fruit of the Holy Spirit? Love? Peace? Joy? I don't see it. Can you elaborate?

Please put your verses into context. I'm asking for clarity.

Witness used to provide a list of verses that we assumed he was going to cover in his "message". At the end of the message, we were scratching our little heads...thinking...hummm...did I miss something?....the verses written on the board had nothing to do with the "message". Huh...

Help us out here.

Nell

Nell, my reply was meant to support what you said at a high level. I took your first post to mean that it's not each other that's so much the problem, but rather the serpent who is always lying - this is the root of it all. Therefore, we should love the person for whom Christ died and paid an incredible price to redeem from the evil kingdom of darkness, and not attack them as if they were the serpent/problem.

In interacting with each other in Spirit, the fruit will be love, joy and peace toward one another, not striving and contention. We will also be long-suffering with each other if we understand that each of us is precious to our Master - it is the unseen deceiver we are really wrestling with, not the other person, and we shouldn't get this confused. It is the lies of the serpent that causes division and that we are hoping to shed light upon.

Did I misunderstand your post? (upon reading it again, perhaps you were trying to equate WL with the father of lies perhaps?)

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

...Did I misunderstand your post? (upon reading it again, perhaps you were trying to equate WL with the father of lies perhaps?)

Yes you did misunderstand my questions.
No. I was not equating Witness Lee with the father of lies.

I asked these questions, which seemed pretty clear to me:
1. Is it possible that the fruit of Lee's ministry is...more deception? (Yes or No?)
2. Do you think Lee was deceived...in his treatment of others...those who were damaged by his "ministry"? The church kids. (Yes or No?)

To clarify, where is the fruit of the Spirit in the ministry of Witness Lee? Are these church kids not the damaged fruit of Witness Lee's ministry?
..

[Sons to Glory!]

See below responses.

Originally Posted by Nell

Yes you did misunderstand my questions.
No. I was not equating Witness Lee with the father of lies.

I asked these questions, which seemed pretty clear to me:
1. Is it possible that the fruit of Lee's ministry is...more deception? (Yes or No?) Yes
2. Do you think Lee was deceived...in his treatment of others...those who were damaged by his "ministry"? The church kids. (Yes or No?) Yes

To clarify, where is the fruit of the Spirit in the ministry of Witness Lee? Are these church kids not the damaged fruit of Witness Lee's ministry? Yes - certainly would say so.

..

[ExChurchKid]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

In interacting with each other in Spirit, the fruit will be love, joy and peace toward one another, not striving and contention. We will also be long-suffering with each other if we understand that each of us is precious to our Master - it is the unseen deceiver we are really wrestling with, not the other person, and we shouldn't get this confused. It is the lies of the serpent that causes division and that we are hoping to shed light upon.

I'm not sure what interacting with each other in the spirit means, but perhaps you should take your own advice and start doing that. You seem to provoke striving and contention, reject long-suffering and understanding, and choose to wrestle with your fellow forum members instead. I guess you aren't interacting in the spirit, then?

It's okay though. If you repent, God will forgive. And perhaps, so will I. Matthew 23:2-4 - "2 The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. 3 So you must be careful to do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach. 4 They tie up heavy, cumbersome loads and put them on other people’s shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them."

Stop putting the burdens on others, Pharisee.

[UntoHim]

Ok, same situation as the other thread. Nell is the thread starter and it was directed at ExChurchKid. SerenityLives chimed in with some very relevant issues. Maybe the rest of us can back off and refrain from posting/reacting at this point.
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[ExChurchKid]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Ok, same situation as the other thread. Nell is the thread starter and it was directed at ExChurchKid. SerenityLives chimed in with some very relevant issues. Maybe the rest of us can back off and refrain from posting/reacting at this point.
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I appreciate this, but you're going to have to do more if you want the forum to get back on track. Or get on the track it originally should have been on. I hopefully await an answer to the questions on my testimony thread.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Curious

I do think I understand, enough to respect your position. I have been through a similar journey myself, in a different context. StG has had another set of life experience that is valid for other situations. I have learned to respect that too, he may not be equipped to be someone who can be a lead in offering care to you right now. He may have strengths in other areas and I don't think it makes him a bad person.

I was once a mess in the middle of a Christian healing organisation. Some people could see me through my anger and pain. Some could not, even in an organisation designed to help the wounded!! Even some on leadership took my anger personally. It's good to lean towards those who can help, and be respectful but remain distant with those who are not able to help in yours or my particular need. And in releasing the ones who don't get us, we can see more clearly the ways they are trying to be supportive within their own paradigm. It actually helped me to heal when I did that.

I did find what I needed and the volcanoes that were going off in me did settle down over time. Trapped and I have both had help in the form of counselling and deliberately prioritising effort to sort things out. To recognise the depth of impact these toxic experiences have had on a person's life can be a huge and scary step in itself. Alot of loving support is necessary. My heart is to be a support and I not alone in that on this forum.

Curious,

I think you make some valid and important points. One point that ExChurchKid has tried to make is that she is not asking for "help". She has alluded to what I call "LC-speak" as something incendiary. StG is fluent in LC-speak. This is not an indictment on you, StG. I'm just asking you to pay attention to how others are reacting. If you really want to communicate, speak plain English.

Trapped has identified the phrase "I don't have the peace...". More LC-speak. There is a whole vocabulary of LC-speak that I react to as well. It's on my radar, but I try to keep it to myself. Some folks, Church Kids for example, can't. That might be a good 'nother topic: "LC-speak".

Your point, Curious, because of our life experiences, we may not be able to provide the support someone may need. No shame in this...it happens all the time. StG, because of your LC-speak, your efforts to respond to ExCK anyway have been somewhat "volcanic". You're not going to "fix" her. She will not soon be able to tolerate LC-speak. If you continue, you only make it worse.

So what to do? It's simple:
ExChurchKid, don't respond to StG. Don't even read him.
StG, don't respond to ExChurchKid. Don't read her. Go easy on the LC-speak.

We need to speak the same language...plain English.

Nell

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Nell

So what to do? It's simple:
ExChurchKid, don't respond to StG. Don't even read him.
StG, don't respond to ExChurchKid. Don't read her. Go easy on the LC-speak.

We need to speak the same language...plain English.

Nell

Okay. Thanks. Sounds good to me. I've not responded to a whole bunch of things for the reasons you cite - because it's obvious effective communication is not happening. This often happens when emotions are heightened. After all these years, I'm continuing to learn to take a break before responding, when things get a little "hot." However, I'm also being called out for NOT responding - seems I'm being an irritant either way!

And regarding the "LC speak" thing, I must say I'm not even aware of that in my words. This may be because for 20+ years I've been involved with what could be termed an exLC splinter group. I have a brother here, who was with the LC in the 60s, but hasn't been since, and he sometimes gets after me for LC speak too! I'll try to watch that, but again, it's hard for me to recognize. If someone could let me know when this is occuring, I'm certainly open to hearing it. (and please provide a suggestion as to how something might have been better worded . . .)

Thanks again for your efforts to reset this mess - it is appreciated!

[NZexCK]

Ahh, the oldest trick in the evangelical males book. When the conversations get too tough for them, just imply that females are too emotional for their own good.