Things Learned from LGBTQ+ Discussions

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by SerenityLives

I think this has to do with the way the Trinity is portrayed. God didnt save us from himself but from the sin he allowed to enter the garden. So he is culpable to some degree. Man is 100 percent not responsible for that sin, as portrayed by Awareness’s instance of God hardening Pharoah’s heart not of his free will, it seems, and the curious walking serpent he allowed in the garden. Seems like the serpent has free will too. Yes free will makes things more interesting but does it cause more harm than good? Why would God allow that? I wish there was some middle ground here, where God allows free will but which you have to wonder if it was free will or a God who just wants His way with divine retribution.

He used his son to save us, everything can be fixed through simple sacrifice. Just like Isaac and Abraham. and Abel’s offerings. He is still a God who loves sacrifices (atonements is a word ilwith more positive connotations), no better than the Greek and Roman gods and goddesses. Dont get me wrong, I thank God for sacrificing his son to atone for our sins, but it’s like dealing with a bipolar Dad. One minute he’s angry, and the next minute he forgives. Now that, I dont understand because it sounds like an emotionally abusive dad. Please God, why cant I understand?

I fully agree on the issue of the portrayal of the Trinity. Since this is Alt-views I can say freely that I think the Trinity is..........not really what the Bible tells us.

This is my viewpoint: There is God the Father. He is the "one true God". There is one God, the Father. God the Father has a Son. The Son of God. We all understand that a father and a son in every possible instance on this earth are two separate beings. Jesus tells us He and the Father are one, but this doesn't mean they are the same or they are each other. They are just one in purpose, in goal, etc. On other threads on this topic, who the Son of God is gets hotly debated - some say He's not God. Some say He is God. I say that as the Son of God, He can't also be that same God.....but as the Son of God He is clearly divine or of god-kind. Just like a human father and his son are different people but are both of mankind, they are just not the same man.

This view takes away the "God came to save us from Himself" thing. The Bible tells us God sent His Son, not sent Himself. And His Son took our punishment of death upon Himself, so that when we succumb to physical death, we know we are not also facing the total extinguishing of our soul too.

I've also had the same thought of "why did the serpent have to be there" and tried to blame it on God. But follow my logic for a second: If God had ONLY given man the prohibition to not eat the TOTKOGAE, then man would have been influenced one way. The only influence would have been God. That's not truly free will so much as it is "influenced will". With the serpent, Adam and Eve had two inputs - God's and the serpent. This "balanced the scale" so to speak, and so Adam and Eve were truly free to choose, not overly influenced one way or the other. Input A and input B. So as strange as it may sound, I'm of the strong opinion that the serpent made it MORE fair than it otherwise would have been.

[SerenityLives]

Originally Posted by Trapped

I've also had the same thought of "why did the serpent have to be there" and tried to blame it on God. But follow my logic for a second: If God had ONLY given man the prohibition to not eat the TOTKOGAE, then man would have been influenced one way. The only influence would have been God. That's not truly free will so much as it is "influenced will". With the serpent, Adam and Eve had two inputs - God's and the serpent. This "balanced the scale" so to speak, and so Adam and Eve were truly free to choose, not overly influenced one way or the other. Input A and input B. So as strange as it may sound, I'm of the strong opinion that the serpent made it MORE fair than it otherwise would have been.

yes there’s only two influences. Maybe there should have been a control group, like in any scientific experiement with proper results. Who’s to say Eve wasnnt more influenced by a walking talking snake than God (whom we dont know what form He tok when he spoke to Adam and Eve). Thus it can still be argued that it was MORE fair but not completely fair nor equal influences.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Trapped

I've also had the same thought of "why did the serpent have to be there" and tried to blame it on God. But follow my logic for a second: If God had ONLY given man the prohibition to not eat the TOTKOGAE, then man would have been influenced one way. The only influence would have been God. That's not truly free will so much as it is "influenced will". With the serpent, Adam and Eve had two inputs - God's and the serpent. This "balanced the scale" so to speak, and so Adam and Eve were truly free to choose, not overly influenced one way or the other. Input A and input B. So as strange as it may sound, I'm of the strong opinion that the serpent made it MORE fair than it otherwise would have been.

What a hoot! So our free will is not so free after all. It depends on inputs. But how could the serpent make it fair? The serpent was just a critter in the garden, made crafty by God. The serpent wasn't a god by any way shape or means. So he couldn't make it fair against the God of the universe. God was a super giant all powerful inputter, while the serpent was just a tree seller, like a used car salesman. He wasn't even a flying fiery serpent, like found in Isaiah 14:29.

The serpent didn't even come close to balancing the fairness scales. But his input was greater and stronger than Gods ; doesn't say much for God ... that a little serpent, created by Him, beat Him at His own game.

Adam an Eve didn't really have free will. That's just a myth.

[Sons to Glory!]

I was considering all the opinions that are being put forth here in my morning time with the Lord today. And I was considering how I might best respond to help ones on here see some things more clearly, etc. (i.e., my "good" intentions). Then there was this verse in Daily Light which seemed to speak to me: "You will not need to fight this battle. Position yourself, stand still and see the salvation of the Lord." (2 Chron 20:17)

So we are all right where we should be, and "Being confident in this very thing, that He who began a good work in you, will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus." (Phil 1:6) He's got this! I too have plenty of things that surely I don't see clearly or am concerned about - but I must trust Him . . . He will do it!

As the song goes, "All things are the best they can be - so let's gain Christ!" Let us be encouraged!

(and allow me add one thing if I may: Granted, viewing God clearly and accurately in the Old Testament is often not so easy. Then Christ came and He is the best picture of God. I used to focus solely on the NT for the reason that the the image of God in the OT did not always seem that clear, and appeared to have conflicting presentations of Him. 40 some years later I am starting to see a little better that God in the OT was indeed very loving, but because He was mainly interacting with mankind through the covenant of the law, His actions can seem pretty harsh in places. But hallelujah, grace & reality - a clear picture of God - came through Jesus Christ! He just loves us, folks, much more than even we love ourselves!)

[SerenityLives]

Consider this article.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/psmag.c...-homosexuality

If Jesus were alive walking on the earth today, I bet he wouldnt like how some Christians are acting towards the lgbtq. He would sit and talk to them.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by SerenityLives

Consider this article.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/psmag.c...-homosexuality

If Jesus were alive walking on the earth today, I bet he wouldnt like how some Christians are acting towards the lgbtq. He would sit and talk to them.

Absolutely!

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by SerenityLives

If Jesus were alive walking on the earth today, I bet he wouldnt like how some Christians are acting towards the lgbtq. He would sit and talk to them.

And what would Jesus say to your LGBTQ comrades about how they treat God and His children?

And on another front, did you know that the much aligned Trump has done more to protect the LGBTQ around the world than any other Prez in history?

[SerenityLives]

Originally Posted by Ohio

And what would Jesus say to your LGBTQ comrades about how they treat God and His children?

And on another front, did you know that the much aligned Trump has done more to protect the LGBTQ around the world than any other Prez in history?

For your first question, you tell me. What have I done to you all?? my friends have done nothing wrong except leave Christianity. Is that what you mean?

For your second, lets not mix politics in this thread. I wrote “some Christians”, not all Christians, so pres trump could be the alleged exception. Under Obama, same sex marriage became law. But maybe you can let me know too about that.
I dont know what kool aid you’re drinking.

https://www.hrc.org/news/the-list-of...gbtq-community

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by SerenityLives

For your first question, you tell me. What have I done to you all?? my friends have done nothing wrong except leave Christianity. Is that what you mean?

For your second, lets not mix politics in this thread. I wrote “some Christians”, not all Christians, so pres trump could be the alleged exception. Under Obama, same sex marriage became law. But maybe you can let me know too about that.
I dont know what kool aid you’re drinking.

Serenity, when you said "some" Christians, then I replied about "some" LGBT. Is that not fair? Your comment did not directly imply me or my behavior, nor did my comment imply you or your behavior. Wasn't I just being fair? Did not I just provide a counter to provide balance?

But this has always been the case with this Alt-Views forum, especially with awareness. And since this thread was started by STG, don't I have a little more liberty here than on your own thread? awareness would often dig up misbehavior done by Christians (really unbelieving, but dogmatic Catholics) a thousand years ago in order to discredit Christians of all time (e.g. flat earthers). That's why many here think he is perhaps 49.94% troll. I don't think using one bad example to mischaracterize the whole is fair. Do you?

But I have not stooped so low as to accuse you of "drinking Kool-Aid." And since this thread is about what we have learned, how can you demand that I not mention in passing something about I have learned about Trump's support for LGBTQ? How can that be fair to me? And should I not mention how Obama for years has flip-flopped on the issue for his own political expediency? Just because Obama signed it into law doesn't mean that he should take credit for it. He never exhibited political courage over the matter.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by SerenityLives

my friends have done nothing wrong except leave Christianity.

Quick comment regarding this - my hope is they haven't left Christ Himself! (to me, "Christianity" can imply the system)

Regarding politics on this thread, I don't mind up to a point where it stops being substantive and blatantly disrespectful. I have seen Ohio and awareness go down a political rabbit hole with each other many times! On one hand it's sorta amusing, but . . .

[awareness]

Originally Posted by SerenityLives

Consider this article.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/psmag.c...-homosexuality

If Jesus were alive walking on the earth today, I bet he wouldnt like how some Christians are acting towards the lgbtq. He would sit and talk to them.

I was moved by the opening line :

"Christians need to accept that Jesus was sometimes wrong—in fact, he might even want us to."

. . . as I've felt the Spirit has been "teaching me all things" since leaving the local church, even teaching me about the false depictions of God in the Bible.