Soul & Spirit - Same or Different?

[Jo S]

Happy to see you're alive and well, StG. I didn't think you'd survive the night after that last exchange, j/k

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Well put! And I think you will be before me in the kingdom! (yes, I am so very humble )

This resonates with me as it sounds much like exhortations I've given others on here before, when going at something ad nauseam (I've perhaps used that phrase too much lately). We haven't reached that point . . . and maybe we shouldn't try. I actually thought someone in particular would want to jump on this topic, but they didn't. So much for my little fishing expedition!

Who's this you're referring to?

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Jo S

Who's this you're referring to?

Got any idea? Now who could it be? Let's see . . . could it possibly be . . . . . . . . . Jo S!?

DING DING DING DING ----> Winner! Winner! Chicken dinner!

But you knew that when you asked, didn't you? And why do you think I thought of you?

[Jo S]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Got any idea? Now who could it be? Could it be . . . . . . Jo S? DING DING DING DING Winner! Winner! Chicken dinner!

But you knew that when you asked, didn't you? And why do you think I had you in mind?

Yes, I assumed so. I just wanted to be sure. I do not know why you thought of me for this topic. Maybe you can fill me in on that. BTW, I'll take a fish dinner if that's an option.

So in an attempt to engage in this topic, I share with you this theory that I have. The theory is that all claims or doctrines derived from New Testament writings (such as body, mind, and soul and their relation to man) should be able to be clearly vetted and validated by the Old Testament or Tanakh; after all Jesus and the apostles always supported their claims with Old Testament scripture.

As a challenge to you and to the forum, I'll pose these two questions:

1) Can you point to where in the Old Testament it speaks of a human spirit (or a human "ruach" in Hebrew)?

2) Intrinsically, what is the main difference between a faithful believer in the OT vs. a born-again believer in the NT?

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Jo S

Yes, I assumed so. I just wanted to be sure. I do not know why you thought of me for this topic. Maybe you can fill me in on that.

So in an attempt to engage in this topic, I share with you this theory that I have. The theory is that all claims or doctrines derived from New Testament writings (such as body, mind, and soul and their relation to man) should to be able to be clearly vetted and validated by the Old Testament or Tanakh; after all Jesus and the apostles always supported their claims with Old Testament scripture.

As a challenge to you and to the forum, I'll pose these two questions:

1) Can you point to where in the Old Testament it speaks of a human spirit (or a human "ruach" in Hebrew)?

2) Intrinsically, what is the main difference between a faithful believer in the OT vs. a born-again believer in the NT?

See!? You didn't disappoint, but what took you so long?

Good questions and interesting theory. Let me approach it this way: The main event in all of history was the death & resurrection of Christ. Christ did this for two key reasons - First so God could pay for all man's sins and redeem mankind back to Himself; and secondly that Christ could then come to live inside His believers via the new birth to a living hope (Christ in them, the hope of glory).

The promise was given to those under the old covenant, and Christ fulfilled that promise. Something brand new that had never happened before took place through the cross. Something wonderful and marvelous and so far beyond us, and it begins in us with the new birth. This was not available to those before the cross. Romans 5:6 says that when the timing was right, Christ came and died for the ungodly. Therefore, this was something the ones prior to that could not partake of - "That which is born of Spirit is spirit." (John 3:6) When Jesus appeared to the disciples after His death, it says "He breathed on them and said, 'Receive the Holy Spirit.'" Something brand new, never seen before had taken place and was being made available. "Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come." (2 Cor 5:17)

So the new covenant is all wrapped-up in this Spirit begetting spirit. I don't think this new creation was available to the old testament saints.

One last verse to illustrate: "'He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, 'From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water.' But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified." (John 7:38-39)

So I think that should address your second question. If you accept that, then it might make the first question something of a moot point (but perhaps not).

[Jo S]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

See!? You didn't disappoint, but what took you so long?

Good questions and interesting theory. Let me approach it this way: The main event in all of history was the death & resurrection of Christ. Christ did this for two key reasons - First so God could pay for all man's sins and redeem mankind back to Himself; and secondly that Christ could then come to live inside His believers via the new birth to a living hope (Christ in them, the hope of glory).

The promise was given to those under the old covenant, and Christ fulfilled that promise. Something brand new that had never happened before took place through the cross. Something wonderful and marvelous and so far beyond us, and it begins in us with the new birth. This was not available to those before the cross. Romans 5:6 says that when the timing was right, Christ came and died for the ungodly. Therefore, this was something the ones prior to that could not partake of - "That which is born of Spirit is spirit." (John 3:6) When Jesus appeared to the disciples after His death, it says "He breathed on them and said, 'Receive the Holy Spirit.'" Something brand new, never seen before had taken place and was being made available. "Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come." (2 Cor 5:17)

So the new covenant is all wrapped-up in this Spirit begetting spirit. I don't think this new creation was available to the old testament saints.

One last verse to illustrate: "'He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, 'From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water.' But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified." (John 7:38-39)

So I think that should address your second question. If you accept that, then it might make the first question something of a moot point (but perhaps not).

One topic at a time for me, I suppose.

So I'll start by saying that I agree, salvation by the indwelling Spirit in the Old Testament is an unfulfilled promise to the faithful. I'll throw this out there as well; for former LC members and current ones, it's important to differentiate between the spirit which the Local Churches preach (one that comes by works) and the one that scripture speaks of (one which comes by grace through faith alone).

My first question still stands regardless. Let me perhaps rephrase it:

Do you believe the Old Testament faithful had a human spirit? If so, can you clearly show this from OT text?

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Jo S

One topic at a time for me, I suppose.

So I'll start by saying that I agree, salvation by the indwelling Spirit in the Old Testament is an unfulfilled promise to the faithful. I'll throw this out there as well; for former LC members and current ones, it's important to differentiate between the spirit which the Local Churches preach (one that comes by works) and the one that scripture speaks of (one which comes by grace through faith alone).

My first question still stands regardless. Let me perhaps rephrase it:

Do you believe the Old Testament faithful had a human spirit? If so, can you clearly show this from OT text?

I'm still thinking about the 1st question. But I have a question regarding something you said - What do you mean by a spirit "that comes by works"?

[Jo S]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

I'm still thinking about the 1st question. But I have a question regarding something you said - What do you mean by a spirit "that comes by works"?

Spirit by works, as you'll find in the LC, it one that comes by imposing your own will onto the spiritual realm - aka the practices of "calling" and Lectio Divina (pray-reading).

Spirit by faith is one that comes as a result of Godly repentance, which is a work of God in your life, through faith alone.

These are two completely different spirits at work. The former is the spirit of the world, the latter is the Holy Spirit of God.