Soul & Spirit - Same or Different?

[Jo S]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

See!? You didn't disappoint, but what took you so long?

Good questions and interesting theory. Let me approach it this way: The main event in all of history was the death & resurrection of Christ. Christ did this for two key reasons - First so God could pay for all man's sins and redeem mankind back to Himself; and secondly that Christ could then come to live inside His believers via the new birth to a living hope (Christ in them, the hope of glory).

The promise was given to those under the old covenant, and Christ fulfilled that promise. Something brand new that had never happened before took place through the cross. Something wonderful and marvelous and so far beyond us, and it begins in us with the new birth. This was not available to those before the cross. Romans 5:6 says that when the timing was right, Christ came and died for the ungodly. Therefore, this was something the ones prior to that could not partake of - "That which is born of Spirit is spirit." (John 3:6) When Jesus appeared to the disciples after His death, it says "He breathed on them and said, 'Receive the Holy Spirit.'" Something brand new, never seen before had taken place and was being made available. "Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come." (2 Cor 5:17)

So the new covenant is all wrapped-up in this Spirit begetting spirit. I don't think this new creation was available to the old testament saints.

One last verse to illustrate: "'He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, 'From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water.' But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified." (John 7:38-39)

So I think that should address your second question. If you accept that, then it might make the first question something of a moot point (but perhaps not).

One topic at a time for me, I suppose.

So I'll start by saying that I agree, salvation by the indwelling Spirit in the Old Testament is an unfulfilled promise to the faithful. I'll throw this out there as well; for former LC members and current ones, it's important to differentiate between the spirit which the Local Churches preach (one that comes by works) and the one that scripture speaks of (one which comes by grace through faith alone).

My first question still stands regardless. Let me perhaps rephrase it:

Do you believe the Old Testament faithful had a human spirit? If so, can you clearly show this from OT text?

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Jo S

One topic at a time for me, I suppose.

So I'll start by saying that I agree, salvation by the indwelling Spirit in the Old Testament is an unfulfilled promise to the faithful. I'll throw this out there as well; for former LC members and current ones, it's important to differentiate between the spirit which the Local Churches preach (one that comes by works) and the one that scripture speaks of (one which comes by grace through faith alone).

My first question still stands regardless. Let me perhaps rephrase it:

Do you believe the Old Testament faithful had a human spirit? If so, can you clearly show this from OT text?

I'm still thinking about the 1st question. But I have a question regarding something you said - What do you mean by a spirit "that comes by works"?

[Jo S]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

I'm still thinking about the 1st question. But I have a question regarding something you said - What do you mean by a spirit "that comes by works"?

Spirit by works, as you'll find in the LC, it one that comes by imposing your own will onto the spiritual realm - aka the practices of "calling" and Lectio Divina (pray-reading).

Spirit by faith is one that comes as a result of Godly repentance, which is a work of God in your life, through faith alone.

These are two completely different spirits at work. The former is the spirit of the world, the latter is the Holy Spirit of God.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Jo S

Spirit by works, as you'll find in the LC, it one that comes by imposing your own will onto the spiritual realm - aka the practices of "calling" and Lectio Divina (pray-reading).

Spirit by faith is one that comes as a result of Godly repentance, which is a work of God in your life, through faith alone.

These are two completely different spirits. The former is the spirit of the world, the latter is the Holy Spirit of God.

I didn't know what was meant by Lectio Divina, so I looked it up and found this video by evidently a Catholic preist (he calls himself "father"): Lactio Divina 4 explanation minute video

This is not too far from what I've practiced in my morning times with Jesus for some time now. I read the word; I thank the Lord for specific things I'm reading or ask Him to operate in my heart. Sometimes that leads into a song that comes up in me, so I sing that. But I use the scripture to meditate upon Him and His works and intentions towards me (and others), and thank/praise Him that He is faithful and true and able to do what He said He will do.

Do you see something wrong with that? (the one thing I probably don't do is Lectio Divina step #5 - go out and do something according to the meditation you just had - but not sure there's anything inherently wrong with that)

EDIT: Something to add - read this article on the perceived danger of Lectio divina:Danger of Lectio divina What this says is it may be a fine practice if we don't get too subjective and don't substitute it for good, careful study of scripture (exegesis). In other words, the author seems to say both is needed, and I agree.

[Jo S]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

I didn't know what was meant by Lectio Divina, so I looked it up and found this video by evidently a Catholic preist (he calls himself "father"): Lactio Divina 4 explanation minute video

This is not too far from what I've practiced in my morning times with Jesus for some time now. I read the word; I thank the Lord for specific things I'm reading or ask Him to operate in my heart. Sometimes that leads into a song that comes up in me, so I sing that. But I use the scripture to meditate upon Him and His works and intentions towards me (and others), and thank/praise Him that He is faithful and true and able to do what He said He will do. Do you see something wrong with that? (the one thing I don't do is Lectio Divina step #5 - go out and do something according to the meditation you just had - but not sure there's anything inherently wrong with that)

Lectio Divina is popular among Catholics and Gnostics. It actually predates Christianity but in the very early church it entered Christendom through the Gnostics and then later into the mainstream by monastic Catholicism.

It's a practice I discourage as it's a very similar to what you'll find in eastern mysticism where you take a verse and turn it into a mantra of sorts for the purpose of emptying the mind of thought. The idea of this is that God can only speak to you through a completely quiet and tranquil mind. It makes me wonder how the Holy Spirit spoke through those who were undergoing martyrdom...

The inherent danger in this is that by emptying the mind, there remains no buffer for differentiating or discerning between what is true and what is a lie. So those that benefit from Lectio Divina simply validate their experience by feelings rather than having a way to challenge their feelings through critical reasoning.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Jo S

Lectio Divina is popular among Catholics and Gnostics. It actually predates Christianity but in the very early church it entered Christendom through the Gnostics and then later into the mainstream by monastic Catholicism.

It's a practice I discourage as it's a very similar to what you'll find in eastern mysticism where you take a verse and turn it into a mantra of sorts for the purpose of emptying the mind of thoughts. The idea of this is that God can only speak to you through a completely quiet and tranquil mind. It makes me wonder how the Holy Spirit spoke through those who were undergoing martyrdom...

The inherent danger in this is that by emptying the mind, there remains no buffer for differentiating or discerning between what is true and what is a lie. So those that benefit from Lectio Divina simply validate their experience by feelings rather than having a way to challenging their feelings through critical reasoning.

Gotcha, and that would be taking it to an extreme, and anything taken that far is . . . well . . . extreme! Please see the article and comment I posted after editing my last post (we're both quick to answer right now).

[Jo S]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Gotcha, and that would be taking it to an extreme, and anything taken that far is . . . well . . . extreme! Please see the article and comment I posted after editing my last post (we're both quick to answer right now).

I don't see anything in that article outlining a less extreme version of Lectio Divina. The author seems to flat out reject it altogether. I believe he's delineating between a subjective approach (LD) and an objective approach to scripture (Exegesis).

StG, perhaps you can outline your personal practice of pray-reading. What does it look like in detail? Does it look similar to the practice taught in the LC's where they single out a verse and declare it over and over again?