Ron Kangas at the Waters of Meribah

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by Indiana

By smiting the rock and calling God's people "rebels" Moses failed to touch God's heart and gave them a wrong impression that God was angry. But God was not angry with them. Neither were His people rebels. So, God told Moses "You are the rebel", and reassuring him he said a second time "You are the rebel".

"The degree to which God is expressed is the degree to which He is represented", says Ron. And Moses failed mightily to express God at the waters of Meribah.

This mistake was "a sin unto death", as Ron puts it. And, what Moses did in failing to express and represent God is "for our learning", as the Bible puts it.

When I listened to the recordings from the last summer training, it was interesting to hear Ron talk about the situation as if to imply that his intention was just to let God deal with the whole situation and to not interfere. Then of course right away Ron starts talking about rebellion, making reference to the people he's upset with, etc. He ended up doing the very thing that he said he wouldn't do, thought I'm sure that was his intention all along.

It seems that each time these types of so-called "turmoils" have occurred, the LC manages to completely mishandle the situation. Especially considering that almost all of these situations have been internal matters, there is no reason for them to make the automatic assumption that the member who is speaking out is acting in bad faith.

In the past, they have called people who speak out all kinds of names - rebels, lepers, etc. This time, they took that same approach, however, the outcome was extremely tragic. There was a recording posted recently where Ron stated that he felt no responsibility or remorse for what happened, even though much of the initial reaction from the LC was related to his own speaking during that summer training.

The LC really needs to come to terms with the path that it is headed down. It's one thing to have a group where people who speak out are called names. But now they have a tragedy on their hands, and I believe that is going stick with them as long as they try to pretend that it doesn't matter. Do they really think that current members aren't questioning their handling of the situation? Do they really think that current members haven't empathized with this family that they hurt?

[Ohio]

What will happen when the Lord becomes the "whistle blower" at the judgment seat and begins to question the Blendeds about past unrighteousness?

Will they also call Him a rebel and a leper?

[theLCfurry]

when a few weeks ago my sister said she fellowshipped with another sister from the person's locality (maybe a few months ago) and she said she had mental illness (basically crazy in the head) - so im guessing the attitude has been kind of a hive mind mentality that its basically name-calling the opposers or trying to discredit them

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by theLCfurry

when a few weeks ago my sister said she fellowshipped with another sister from the person's locality (maybe a few months ago) and she said she had mental illness (basically crazy in the head) - so im guessing the attitude has been kind of a hive mind mentality that its basically name-calling the opposers or trying to discredit them

It seems that they don't even think about what they're saying when they start name-calling. For example, if they think that someone is mentally ill (and it wouldn't be the first time they have tried to label someone that way), it's all the more reason for them to have not responded in the way they did.

One of the problems is that Ron doesn't seem to be able to manage his anger well and then he goes and says things that he probably should have thought twice about saying. But by then it's too late and he has to go into damage control mode. Except this time the damage was much worse than they are used to.

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by Freedom

It seems that each time these types of so-called "turmoils" have occurred, the LC manages to completely mishandle the situation. Especially considering that almost all of these situations have been internal matters, there is no reason for them to make the automatic assumption that the member who is speaking out is acting in bad faith.

And yet, they do make that assumption. Oh boy, do they ever.

One of the sinners in the church sins and you'd like the situation to be handled according to Scripture?

You'd better expect repercussions.

Originally Posted by Freedom

In the past, they have called people who speak out all kinds of names - rebels, lepers, etc. This time, they took that same approach, however, the outcome was extremely tragic. There was a recording posted recently where Ron stated that he felt no responsibility or remorse for what happened, even though much of the initial reaction from the LC was related to his own speaking during that summer training.

For them not to say one word about the suffering of his widow, or one word about care or love or reaching out to people in pain, but instead say they are not afraid at all? That should terrify the saints. That's a seared conscience. That's almost Satan.....to mock the situation and have no feeling in the face of tragic death.

Originally Posted by Freedom

The LC really needs to come to terms with the path that it is headed down. It's one thing to have a group where people who speak out are called names. But now they have a tragedy on their hands, and I believe that is going stick with them as long as they try to pretend that it doesn't matter. Do they really think that current members aren't questioning their handling of the situation? Do they really think that current members haven't empathized with this family that they hurt?

Sadly, I don't think so. Anyone saying anything besides "what a rich ministry!" is automatically a rebel. The co-workers post publicly that the saints cannot expect to know how situations are handled. Questioning that is labeled "questionings" which are negative and poisonous. The members may be in mental turmoil for a little bit, in fact I know some were, but just shut their mind off and block it out and chalk it up to "God's judging of rebellion".

I've seen saints clearly distraught at the hearing of Greg's suicide, and then weeks later saying the fault is on the nature of the letter - public, rather than approaching the co-workers privately. "And what do you expect when you do things in a wrong way like that?" It's grievous.

It's thought control, plain and simple. I just can't help but picture all the saints with little iron-bar cages around their heads, trapping them like animals.

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by Trapped

I've seen saints clearly distraught at the hearing of Greg's suicide, and then weeks later saying the fault is on the nature of the letter - public, rather than approaching the co-workers privately. "And what do you expect when you do things in a wrong way like that?" It's grievous.

It's thought control, plain and simple. I just can't help but picture all the saints with little iron-bar cages around their heads, trapping them like animals.

It seems that one common tactic the LC uses against people who speak out is to attempt to discredit the way the person spoke out, saying they should have voiced their concerns in a different way. What they don't admit, however, is that people don't tend to speak out publicly except as a last resort.

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by Freedom

It seems that one common tactic the LC uses against people who speak out is to attempt to discredit the way the person spoke out, saying they should have voiced their concerns in a different way. What they don't admit, however, is that people don't tend to speak out publicly except as a last resort.

Totally. The ones in the lead literally have no idea how to handle any real situations. They live their life so afraid of being exposed that they shoot anyone who brings a real problem to them out of fear that that person will create a storm out of it. But if they handled the problem Biblically, correctly, with care, with pastoral concern from the get-go, there would be no issue created and no need to speak out. It's precisely because they shoot the people who come to them with problems, that issues are then created, because no one gets real care or healing.

The local church literally creates their own opposers with their own hands. And they think they are the "center of God's move"? It's ridiculous.

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by Trapped

Totally. The ones in the lead literally have no idea how to handle any real situations. They live their life so afraid of being exposed that they shoot anyone who brings a real problem to them out of fear that that person will create a storm out of it. But if they handled the problem Biblically, correctly, with care, with pastoral concern from the get-go, there would be no issue created and no need to speak out. It's precisely because they shoot the people who come to them with problems, that issues are then created, because no one gets real care or healing.

The local church literally creates their own opposers with their own hands. And they think they are the "center of God's move"? It's ridiculous.

The LC seems to have quite a few in leadership positions who have no idea what real leadership is about. At a local level, what I noticed is that problems were often mishandled simply because the elders were uncomfortable with the fact that there was a problem needing to be handled. In their minds the role of an elder was to tell the brothers and sisters to alternate verses when singing a song, or to give announcements at the end of a meeting.

At a higher level with the so-called coworkers, there may be different motivations for their actions, such knowing that certain situations have the ability to negatively impact the LC. However, it seems like its still the same basic issue. A problem exists and they view the problem as an inconvenience rather than something needing a solution.

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by Freedom

The LC seems to have quite a few in leadership positions who have no idea what real leadership is about. At a local level, what I noticed is that problems were often mishandled simply because the elders were uncomfortable with the fact that there was a problem needing to be handled. In their minds the role of an elder was to tell the brothers and sisters to alternate verses when singing a song, or to give announcements at the end of a meeting.

At a higher level with the so-called coworkers, there may be different motivations for their actions, such knowing that certain situations have the ability to negatively impact the LC. However, it seems like its still the same basic issue. A problem exists and they view the problem as an inconvenience rather than something needing a solution.

Yep. They want the problems to disappear rather than be resolved.

Elders definitely are uncomfortable with the fact that there are problems needing to be handled. And it makes sense when you realize that their bi-annual "trainings" for elders are not trainings at all. These are men thrown into the battlefield of many human souls with absolutely no training, no tools, no supplies, and a prohibition on doing the very things that would help the most (getting actual training from "the world" on these things, getting some kind of "pastoral care" qualifications, even reading other authors who talk about how to lead the church, etc).

Certain situations may negatively impact the LC, yes, but usually it's not a legitimate impact. For example, situations may negatively impact the LC in that people begin to see that Witness Lee took a status for himself and profited off the saints, or that people begin to see the numerous spiritually unhealthy teachings.......but that's only a "negative impact" because they are protecting the wrong things.

They are not there for restoration, reconciliation, healing, proper handling, protection, care, or a good outcome for the human lives involved. They are just there to make problems (and people, if needed) go away.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Trapped

They are not there for restoration, reconciliation, healing, proper handling, protection, care, or a good outcome for the human lives involved. They are just there to make problems (and people, if needed) go away.

This is true. Nothing has happened to suggest otherwise. No restoration. No reconciliation. Those in leadership made people go away have a closed door to ever receiving them again. Any attempt to coming back will result in being escorted out.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Trapped

Totally. The ones in the lead literally have no idea how to handle any real situations. They live their life so afraid of being exposed that they shoot anyone who brings a real problem to them out of fear that that person will create a storm out of it. But if they handled the problem Biblically, correctly, with care, with pastoral concern from the get-go, there would be no issue created and no need to speak out. It's precisely because they shoot the people who come to them with problems, that issues are then created, because no one gets real care or healing.

The local church literally creates their own opposers with their own hands. And they think they are the "center of God's move"? It's ridiculous.

It seems many in the lead got there out 10-20 years of loyalty and apt to parrot whatever LSM is pushing while not able to lead or shepherd congregations their in. Many come across as church managers or hirelings rather than shepherds. Attitude is we set to the meeting time, we're here and those who want to be here are here. It's rare to go and visit ones who have been inactive for periods of time.
Concerns are a LC taboo. There may be some elders/co-workers that wll listen to a degree, but any expectation one might have for a "responsible one" to take action, an elder/co-worker may suddenly experience a bout of thin skin. Taking exception to being told what to do.
And how do opposers get created? Many thinking the same thing. No one likes being fed a lie to be accepted as truth or to have their personal liberty undermined who they can or cannot receive.

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by Terry

It seems many in the lead got there out 10-20 years of loyalty and apt to parrot whatever LSM is pushing while not able to lead or shepherd congregations their in. Many come across as church managers or hirelings rather than shepherds. Attitude is we set to the meeting time, we're here and those who want to be here are here. It's rare to go and visit ones who have been inactive for periods of time.

Considerations in choosing elders and responsible brothers are things like "he attends the meeting regularly", or "he prophesies almost every week", "he is fully in the church life" or "his wife is not a wacko". Allegiance to and parroting of the ministry is a must.

Originally Posted by Terry

Concerns are a LC taboo. There may be some elders/co-workers that wll listen to a degree, but any expectation one might have for a "responsible one" to take action, an elder/co-worker may suddenly experience a bout of thin skin. Taking exception to being told what to do.

This is the flag of an unhealthy church. Bad things happen in all churches, but in unhealthy churches, you can't talk about them. If you do, then your talking about it is the problem, not the actual problem.

Elders and co-workers will usually listen to problems, but it's more for information gathering and threat-assessment than with a concern for the people involved. A need to take action gives them instant lead feet. Fellowship that should be swift drags on interminably while saints suffer. Leading brothers don't like having the Bible pointed out to them when they should rightfully take action in the face of serious situations as they hem and haw hoping it will just all fade away.

Originally Posted by Terry

And how do opposers get created? Many thinking the same thing. No one likes being fed a lie to be accepted as truth or to have their personal liberty undermined who they can or cannot receive.

Dead on.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Trapped

I've seen saints clearly distraught at the hearing of Greg's suicide, and then weeks later saying the fault is on the nature of the letter - public, rather than approaching the co-workers privately. "And what do you expect when you do things in a wrong way like that?" It's grievous.

It's in human nature to point out all the things that line up with one's view, and ignore the rest. In some cases, the quantity ignored is substantial. In this case, what's ignored is that the "private approach" didn't work for Steve Isitt, Bill Mallon, John Ingalls, and with many others. The pattern is clear. But we don't care about that, do we - it's not helpful to our position.

So Greg and Joanna Casteel failed to follow NT due process, and this crossed the line with God's government, and LC leadership isn't responsible for what happened... yet what of all those who followed NT due process? They got railroaded. Then, due process didn't matter, God's governing commands were ignored, it was "we don't care for right and wrong, just for life".

Stick around in the LC, and you end up with these moving sets of rules. When it's convenient, the rules go one way. When it's no longer convenient, they flip 180 degrees. And nobody's supposed to notice.

[Truthseeker]

That's why Ron Kangas may have no qualifications for leading His people into promised land anymore like the case of Moses.

Should we wait until Ron Kangas's passing away? And something new and good will happen in LC ? Or do you think that situation among LC is unrepairable?

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by Truthseeker

That's why Ron Kangas may have no qualifications for leading His people into promised land anymore like the case of Moses.

Should we wait until Ron Kangas's passing away? And something new and good will happen in LC ? Or do you think that situation among LC is unrepairable?

It is my opinion and a great source of grief that it's unrepairable without outside intervention. Or intervention from within, I suppose, but that will only have its source from the outside.

The "junior co-workers" are chosen because they are cut from the same cloth as the senior co-workers. There is a massive atmosphere of submission, ingratiation, bowing, "I don't know anything" from those lower on the totem pole, and even when Ron passes away, the other co-workers - both senior and junior - won't rock the boat. They are all 1000% committed to the gold bar, the pure ministry as our founding documents, Witness Lee as The One Who's Burdens We Must Carry Out. They live in their tiny little mental box absolutely petrified that any change for the better might be "Christianity" or might be the first brick to building the bridge back to Christianity.

It's an inherently unrecoverable closed system, ironically called The Recovery. I think it can only change with an outside influence acting upon it, humanly, or from God having enough and stepping in, divinely.

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by aron

It's in human nature to point out all the things that line up with one's view, and ignore the rest. In some cases, the quantity ignored is substantial. In this case, what's ignored is that the "private approach" didn't work for Steve Isitt, Bill Mallon, John Ingalls, and with many others. The pattern is clear. But we don't care about that, do we - it's not helpful to our position.

So Greg and Joanna Casteel failed to follow NT due process, and this crossed the line with God's government, and LC leadership isn't responsible for what happened... yet what of all those who followed NT due process? They got railroaded. Then, due process didn't matter, God's governing commands were ignored, it was "we don't care for right and wrong, just for life".

Stick around in the LC, and you end up with these moving sets of rules. When it's convenient, the rules go one way. When it's no longer convenient, they flip 180 degrees. And nobody's supposed to notice.

Right. The problem is that the leadership doesn't respond in the way the Bible commands them to.

Concerned saints have "followed protocol" for decades, going to the elders and/or co-workers about what they see, but the brothers in the lead do not respond as they should, in other words, "if he hears you".

They don't "hear", they pay lip service and then avoid.

If you then bring more people, they still don't hear but call it rebellion.

If you then tell the church, they still don't hear but call it opposition and divisiveness.

And you are then ostracized and shunned.

The very thing that is supposed to happen to the leading ones for not "hearing" is the very thing that happens to the ones concerned.

I know of volcanic situations brought to leading brothers, who then spend weeks and months futzing around, kicking the ball around while the saints choking to death on the destruction happening just die and disappear because no one would do anything.

The co-workers are nothing like the apostles in the Bible that they claim to be.

[Curious]

Originally Posted by Freedom

When I listened to the recordings from the last summer training, it was interesting to hear Ron talk about the situation as if to imply that his intention was just to let God deal with the whole situation and to not interfere. Then of course right away Ron starts talking about rebellion, making reference to the people he's upset with, etc. He ended up doing the very thing that he said he wouldn't do, thought I'm sure that was his intention all along.

It seems that each time these types of so-called "turmoils" have occurred, the LC manages to completely mishandle the situation. Especially considering that almost all of these situations have been internal matters, there is no reason for them to make the automatic assumption that the member who is speaking out is acting in bad faith.

In the past, they have called people who speak out all kinds of names - rebels, lepers, etc. This time, they took that same approach, however, the outcome was extremely tragic. There was a recording posted recently where Ron stated that he felt no responsibility or remorse for what happened, even though much of the initial reaction from the LC was related to his own speaking during that summer training.

The LC really needs to come to terms with the path that it is headed down. It's one thing to have a group where people who speak out are called names. But now they have a tragedy on their hands, and I believe that is going stick with them as long as they try to pretend that it doesn't matter. Do they really think that current members aren't questioning their handling of the situation? Do they really think that current members haven't empathized with this family that they hurt?

I’m going to explain something here. I have made effort in my posts to be clear to the LC top brass that the way is open for their redemption. I have covered forgiveness for them and thought about ways they could sort things out and be respected for it and helped through it.

The reason is, I nearly died once. It happened suddenly, without warning, and it was real. At the time, I was not right with God and I knew it. (I only knew it once I realised my life was in threat, while I felt confident of my existence this knowledge was not in me).

Hours before Saul died, he knew it was all over. Same with Haman, Esther’s adversary. In both accounts, terror overtook them such that all the strength went out from their bodies. In both accounts they had intended to harm and kill innocent lives in order to further their own ends, both considered the lives of others expendable, in their selfish ambition. They had a cheap regard for the lives of others, then were left to face their own end with the knowledge in their conscience that it was over for them and God would not be with them in it.

I know something of what that terror feels like, and I would never wish that upon any human soul while there is still a heartbeat in their chest. I won’t try to find words to describe how it feels. I will just leave it there.

The complete lack of conscience, care, concern, even human curiosity about what they could have done differently that might have avoided this outcome for Greg Casteel…..this causes me to shudder inside at what a dreadful place I perceive they are in. Not unlike Saul or Haman, and completely ignorant of the frailty of their own existence. When the end comes for them it may all come crashing down with nothing left but raw brutal terror, and a knowing that they’ve repeatedly squandered, even scoffed at, multiple opportunities to recant and change, and reflect something of the nature of Jesus whom they hope in.

Saul wasn’t short of the ability to ‘prophecy’ with the prophets. ‘Prophesying’ did not change his heart. LC leaders can ‘prophecy’ according to LC style all they like. God looks at the heart and how they have handled this issue does not bode well for them at all, in my opinion, and I say that sadly.

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by Curious

Hours before Saul died, he knew it was all over. Same with Haman, Esther’s adversary. In both accounts, terror overtook them such that all the strength went out from their bodies. In both accounts they had intended to harm and kill innocent lives in order to further their own ends, both considered the lives of others expendable, in their selfish ambition. They had a cheap regard for the lives of others, then were left to face their own end with the knowledge in their conscience that it was over for them and God would not be with them in it.

I know something of what that terror feels like, and I would never wish that upon any human soul while there is still a heartbeat in their chest. I won’t try to find words to describe how it feels. I will just leave it there.

The complete lack of conscience, care, concern, even human curiosity about what they could have done differently that might have avoided this outcome for Greg Casteel…..this causes me to shudder inside at what a dreadful place I perceive they are in. Not unlike Saul or Haman, and completely ignorant of the frailty of their own existence. When the end comes for them it may all come crashing down with nothing left but raw brutal terror, and a knowing that they’ve repeatedly squandered, even scoffed at, multiple opportunities to recant and change, and reflect something of the nature of Jesus whom they hope in.

This is a very good point. Selfish ambition is definitely a motivation for some of those in top LC leadership positions. It has become all about ensuring the survival of their movement and their positions within the movement. In the past, when I observed their response to various controversies, there was always a lot of strong rhetoric with name-calling, finger-pointing, etc. Previously, a lot of it just seemed childish at worst. But then leading up to Greg’s death, they took things to a whole new level. Their attack on the Casteel family was uncalled for and despicable. It shows an utter disregard for the well-being of all the people who have been under their care.

A lot of the top LC leaders are fairly old and don’t have much time left. I do hope for their own sake that they would repent, but even moreso for the sake of all those whom they have hurt. What they will be leaving behind is a movement with a tarnished reputation that is directly related to many of their actions and decisions. It could very well be the case that the LC eventually collapses because they are unable to overcome such a reputation. Or alternatively, perhaps new leaders will rise up and try to undo past wrongs. That part is really anyone’s guess, but their actions now are doing nothing to help the cause of the LC.

[Raptor]

Originally Posted by Curious

.
The reason is, I nearly died once. It happened suddenly, without warning, and it was real. At the time, I was not right with God and I knew it. (I only knew it once I realised my life was in threat, while I felt confident of my existence this knowledge was not in me).

I know something of what that terror feels like, and I would never wish that upon any human soul while there is still a heartbeat in their chest. I won’t try to find words to describe how it feels. I will just leave it there.

Thanks for sharing.

Someone that had been close to WL at different times, even from the very beginning told me WL had a terrible death.

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by Raptor

Thanks for sharing.

Someone that had been close to WL at different times, even from the very beginning told me WL had a terrible death.

Can you explain a little more?

[Curious]

It looks like from everything that is considered on this forum, that Lee sold eternity for temporal power and glory. That works until it all doesn’t anymore, at the end. From there only God knows. I never thought I would see it testified that Lee had a ‘terrible death’, and much as the words make me shudder to read, it is what I suspect.

Now I have focused many of my posts on efforts towards those following in Lee’s footsteps. It seems to me reflecting back, that I may well have given the impression that I care for them more than those they harm. In fact, I have only been motivated by my awareness of the fate I believe that awaits those running the LC show, and the actual peril they live in. But now I believe I have spent enough of this forum’s space and time on this theme.

It is absolutely remarkable and honor-worthy that Jo Casteel prayed to speak blessings to the Local Churches at the funeral of her husband. I commend her highly for her grace and dignity in the face of tragedy.

Amazing though her decision to bless is, it is also the requirement laid out before us as those who follow Jesus. She has fulfilled what God instructs from a true disciple. We have to have a heart like His in order to be his brothers and sisters!! (I have taken a long time, in my own life, to come to the place of realising God requires that of me too). This is what true Christianity looks like! And WL chose to have no part in it, and on this topic, he certainly didn’t participate in or reflect 'Christianity'. And neither do those who have followed him. (Maybe it was in reality, some of these aspects of 'Christian' faith that he was avoiding?)

Questions I am going to ask, and incidentally, that the leadership of the LC should be asking with all their hearts, but sadly, aren’t:

How is the Casteel family managing in the medium and long term? With only one bread winner and the burden of grief still bearing down on them, and now the covid 19 disruption, how are things for them? Do they have the spiritual and emotional support, the financial and practical reserves they need to get through? I pray they do but apart from posing the questions here, I have no way to know the answers and I don’t expect they will want these details answered on a public forum anyway. It is natural and human to be concerned about them and I’m sure many who read here think the same thoughts and have the same questions. What I do know for sure is it won’t be easy, the harm done has ongoing ramifications, the stress left on Jo will probably overwhelm her at times.

I’m sure there are many more people than she realises, praying for her and thinking, caring about her life and that of her children, as their lives continue. I daresay many more people than she realises are thinking of her and praying for her and her family. I hope she is encouraged to know many support her even if only from afar and through an internet forum!

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by Curious

How is the Casteel family managing in the medium and long term? With only one bread winner and the burden of grief still bearing down on them, and now the covid 19 disruption, how are things for them? Do they have the spiritual and emotional support, the financial and practical reserves they need to get through?

Go Fund Me page set up for Jo Casteel and kids. Has not seen a lot of action for about a month now:
https://www.gofundme.com/f/tribute-a...r-greg-casteel
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