A Corona Virus Great Awakening?

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Jo S

I'll have to agree with OBW on this. To claim that the Coronavirus is a direct cause of God is claiming prophecy. I understand that in the LC's members are taught to be fast and loose with prophecy, but caution and discipline have to be practiced with these kinds of presumptions.

In Revelation, the plagues that take place happen “immediately after the distress of those days”. These plagues are to show the rebellious heart of man. This is also at a time when the restrainer, or the Holy Spirit, who is working today through the the body of Christ on earth will have been completely removed. So when these plagues come, everyone will know it's God's judgment. It'll be in a time much worse then this, but it seems we are getting closer each and every day.

So God does not use things like this to shake men's hearts so men may turn to Him and live?

[Jo S]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

So God does not use things like this to shake men's hearts so men may turn to Him and live?

Of course. Scripture is clear that even things which are meant for evil, God can use for good. But it doesn't mean they're directly from him.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Jo S

Of course. Scripture is clear that even things which are meant for evil, God can use for good. But it doesn't mean they're directly from him.

A mystery . . .

Has anyone else listened to Piper's free audio book, mentioned earlier on in this thread? I'm curious as to others' take on it.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Jo S

Of course. Scripture is clear that even things which are meant for evil, God can use for good. But it doesn't mean they're directly from him.

Yet...it doesn't mean these "things" are not from him.

OBW: "I don't buy the presumption of active determinism in everything that happens."

No one said everything. We're just talking about COVID19...not everything.

It's just a conversation. Is John Piper wrong? He has an opinion, just like all of us do. I think we can hear him out...it's just a conversation.

Nell

[Jo S]

Originally Posted by Nell

Yet...it doesn't mean these "things" are not from him. No one said everything. We're just talking about COVID19...not everything. It's just a conversation. Is John Piper wrong? He has an opinion, just like all of us do. I think we can hear him out...it's just a conversation.

I suppose that is true. I personally haven't received word from the LORD either way.

While I remain neutral to the cause of the Corona Virus, the reaction to it doesn't accurately reflect history. This leads me to believe at least the situation is being opportunistically politicized.

While it seems the virus is more deadly than Influenza, it's only marginally so. It's definitely not on the level of threat as something like Ebola for example.

I don't know what is going on beyond that but without getting too conspiratorial I do get the sense that the spirit of the world is heavily involved in this. No doubt the LORD is at work as well.

[Sons to Glory!]

I thought of Job's situation as pertaining to understanding all this and read what I thought to be a great synopsis online: https://www.sparknotes.com/lit/oldtestament/section11/

I espcially liked this sentence at the very end:
"God suggests that people should not discuss divine justice since God’s power is so great that humans cannot possibly justify his ways."

It fits well at this discussion I think. (I just wonder which of Job's friend/advisors I would be . . .)

[OBW]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

How do you explain the events depicted in Revelation then, that is, all the judgement that are purposefully poured out? Is that done because God hates man or loves man?

I see three eras.

The first is the OT where God declared that he would punish Israel if they were disobedient. (Yes, he also punished Sodom, and threatened to do the same to Nineveh, among others.) And he sent warnings in some cases stating their error and giving them a chance to repent.

The second is the NT era prior to the end times. That is where we are now. There is clearly promises of difficulty during this time. But no indication of warnings to be given to the church in the manner as was done to/for Israel. We have been given the scripture and the Spirit and should not need overt warnings. There is no promise to take action on nations, leaders, etc. But just as has happened throughout history, nations rise and fall. Both good and bad leaders take power all over the earth and eventually both are overthrown. Yet the church persists.

Then comes the end times. As part of that, there will be judgment for all the earth. It has endured the general judgment that came with the fall, but not the direct and active punishment of God. There are several word pictures indicating that this happens, though the precision as to how it happens is not clear.

Since I believe that we are in the second of those three periods of time, I do not generally understand the cycles of nature, and the whims of man as necessarily messages from God. Not saying he cannot do it or does not. But to think that because there is a pandemic that God is saying something specific beyond what he is always saying — “repent” — is little more than presumption. I cannot find evidence of such events in this era being that kind of prophetic warning.

Should we repent if we need to? (And we always do.) Of course. But what should we repent for? The sins of the evil age in which we live, or our own sins? I suggest it is the latter. Now I think the church has a lot to repent for. Seeking to gain political power to accomplish what only God can do in the lives of those who do not profess belief in Christ. Ignoring the poor, widow, orphan, and alien. Should I continue? We should repent for not living in obedience to the righteousness of God. For not bearing the image of God while we claim to be His ambassadors.

But from what I can see, for the most part the church is not seeing any actual call to repentance, but rather seeing a need to perfect the moral righteousness of the heathen without first leading them to faith in the God who calls for that righteousness. We are so quick to decry such backwards thinking within the church, but instead force it upon the heathen anyway.

[Nell]

Just to clarify, the virus itself is the catalyst for the shaking that is going on worldwide (to paraphrase J. Piper):
1. The economies, which people have put their faith in is shaken to the core virtually worldwide.
2. Political systems and governments are shaken.
3. Education. Shut down.
4. Churches. Shut down.
You have never had a time like this in your lifetime or has this nation.
Looks like some "evidence" to me. It's not happenstance, is it?

The eternal message of God has been to "repent." When repentance did not come, action was taken. Throughout scripture, when men did not repent according the words of the prophets, there was a price to pay...a shaking. It's presumption to think that in the absence of repentance, God would not take action of some sort...to shake. God's "shaking" often precedes repentance. Call it "incentive".

A mother who tells her kid "don't do that" while the kid continues to misbehave, eventually applies a good "shake" to get their attention. So the message of repentance is not contradictory to what's actually happening today. No need to overthink it.

Nell

[Jo S]

Originally Posted by Nell

Throughout scripture, when men did not repent according the words of the prophets, there was a price to pay...a shaking. It's presumption to think that in the absence of repentance, God would not take action of some sort...to shake. God's "shaking" often precedes repentance. Call it "incentive".

Where are the prophets today? That office ended with John the Baptist. We have the spirit of prophesy which is the spirit of Jesus and he left us with Revelation.

The more I think about it, the only pestilence specifically decreed by God in these last days will be the one's spoken of in Revelation because we are not in the age of the prophets anymore, where God's wrath was poured out, but we are in the age of grace. I'm still leaning towards this whole situation as being purposely blown out of control. For what purpose exactly? I don't know.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Nell

Just to clarify, the virus itself is the catalyst for the shaking that is going on worldwide (to paraphrase J. Piper):
1. The economies, which people have put their faith in is shaken to the core virtually worldwide.
2. Political systems and governments are shaken.
3. Education. Shut down.
4. Churches. Shut down.
You have never had a time like this in your lifetime or has this nation.
Looks like some "evidence" to me. It's not happenstance, is it?

The eternal message of God has been to "repent."

Nell, said another way, has not every man and woman on earth been forced to ask, "what is going on?"

Is this not a heavenly preparation for something to come?

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by OBW

I see three eras.

The first is the OT where God declared that he would punish Israel if they were disobedient. (Yes, he also punished Sodom, and threatened to do the same to Nineveh, among others.) And he sent warnings in some cases stating their error and giving them a chance to repent.

The second is the NT era prior to the end times. That is where we are now. There is clearly promises of difficulty during this time. But no indication of warnings to be given to the church in the manner as was done to/for Israel. We have been given the scripture and the Spirit and should not need overt warnings. There is no promise to take action on nations, leaders, etc. But just as has happened throughout history, nations rise and fall. Both good and bad leaders take power all over the earth and eventually both are overthrown. Yet the church persists.

Then comes the end times. As part of that, there will be judgment for all the earth. It has endured the general judgment that came with the fall, but not the direct and active punishment of God. There are several word pictures indicating that this happens, though the precision as to how it happens is not clear.

Since I believe that we are in the second of those three periods of time, I do not generally understand the cycles of nature, and the whims of man as necessarily messages from God. Not saying he cannot do it or does not. But to think that because there is a pandemic that God is saying something specific beyond what he is always saying — “repent” — is little more than presumption. I cannot find evidence of such events in this era being that kind of prophetic warning.

Should we repent if we need to? (And we always do.) Of course. But what should we repent for? The sins of the evil age in which we live, or our own sins? I suggest it is the latter. Now I think the church has a lot to repent for. Seeking to gain political power to accomplish what only God can do in the lives of those who do not profess belief in Christ. Ignoring the poor, widow, orphan, and alien. Should I continue? We should repent for not living in obedience to the righteousness of God. For not bearing the image of God while we claim to be His ambassadors.

But from what I can see, for the most part the church is not seeing any actual call to repentance, but rather seeing a need to perfect the moral righteousness of the heathen without first leading them to faith in the God who calls for that righteousness. We are so quick to decry such backwards thinking within the church, but instead force it upon the heathen anyway.

Mike, I like everything you wrote here! But I also believe Nell has a good point regarding shaking and the uniqueness of the situation. How about this verse: "For the time has come for judgment to begin at the house of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God?" 1 Peter 4:17 That's sobering . . .

To me the message is pretty clear - Christians (those who are called by My name) repent!

[OBW]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Mike, I like everything you wrote here! But I also believe Nell has a good point regarding shaking and the uniqueness of the situation. How about this verse: "For the time has come for judgment to begin at the house of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God?" 1 Peter 4:17 That's sobering . . .

To me the message is pretty clear - Christians (those who are called by My name) repent!

First, the situation is not that unique. It seems that way to us because we have not seen this kind of thing during our lifetime. Yet there have been much worse events in the past. Just 100 years ago there was the so-called Spanish flu (that seems to have originated in Kansas). Killed proportionately many more than Covid-19 has, though it is likely far from over (definitely not just going to disappear as some are saying).

Yes, the time has come for judgment to begin. And it began all the way back in the first century, as Peter wrote. And he did not need a pandemic to come to this conclusion. And the judgment he wrote about was not some external judgment upon the earth. It was about judgment on the house of God. It was a time of persecution. But he also said that the end was near. (And while the end times may not have been as near as he thought, it was still no more than a few years for anyone alive at the time.) Yes, he rightly pointed to the fact that if there is judgment on the house of God, then it will be much greater on those who do not obey.

But how do we respond to a pandemic? Do we retreat into solitude and prayer? Surely, if we have not been praying enough, we should remedy that. And if we have been in some kind of stupor, we should awaken. But ultimately we should find ourselves living in obedience to God's commands.

And, interestingly, the cycle of wars and pandemics seems to constantly remind us that we are not simply our own. That we are not just citizens of one earthly kingdom or another. We are also citizens of the heavenly kingdom. We have duties as citizens of that kingdom. And if we have forgotten them, then we should be awakened. We do need to pray. But there should be no mystery as to what our reaction should be. We already know what we should do. It has not changed. It just takes a new riding of famine, war, pestilence, and/or death through our midst to awaken us to our condition. Yes we, the church, should repent. But don't just stay mired in sackcloth and ashes. As we repent, we should move toward the actions of obedience. Any judgment on us is not about homosexuals, foreigners, liberals, communists, fascists, gay marriage, abortion, etc. Surely that is not us. But have we turned our judgment and faux righteousness on the world instead of loving them while they are yet sinners?

I doubt that this particular pandemic was sovereignly "sent" to bring the church to its knees. Yet the very action of the cycles of such events should shake us from our stupor. And as Paul wrote, God will use everything to our benefit. He didn't say he would ordain that everything happen so that we would get a benefit. But whatever does happen, he will use it. And in the onward march of time through the fall, (in other words, from Adam until the end) there will be pandemics, wars, disease, and more.

And Revelation seems to be telling us to expect that there will be so-called messiahs who promise much but produce little. And the cycle of evil continues. And the end will come. One way or the other. Our day of reckoning is coming. Today, tomorrow, and a few years. Due to our personal death or the actual end of times. Be ready. Be proactive such that the cycle of pandemics does not shake you. Live as citizens in the kingdom of God no matter the conditions. But expect that the results of the fall will continue, and will wreak havoc on mankind. And if you need a reminder of the frailty of man, just wait. There will be a war. Or a rumor of war. Someone will take action in the form of a protest that will run counter to what you believe to be best.

But the Kingdom of God is not eating and drinking. Or worldly kingdoms repenting. Or heathen and pagans acting like Christians — without Christ inside. (It is funny that we claim to be unable to be righteous without Christ yet we want the world to do it anyway.) The Kingdom of God is righteousness, peace (not fear), and joy (not anger) in the Holy Spirit (not our so-called human spirit).

And for some of us, this particular pandemic has awakened us to our lack of righteousness, peace, and/or joy. SARS didn't do it. Nor the Swine flu. Nor the latest mall, school, or workplace shootings. Nor the collapse of the twin towers (though that one did affect some positively). Bernie didn't do it for those on the right, and Trump didn't do it for those on the left. They just upped the level of angst, joylessness, and unrighteousness. And looking at the responses to the coronavirus, it would seem that there are many who are Christian who still have not gotten the memo. They just want to make a political fight out of it. Keep their sanctuary open and running full force. Demand their "inalienable rights" while dismissing the responsibilities that go with those rights.

They weigh the relative value of an open economy to the value of the death of the citizens. But what is the currency they are using? Just the dollar?

I guess life is cheap.

And I'm not sure that much has "awakened" beyond a sense of increased desire to get what is mine. I hope that any of us that needed spiritual awakening have arisen from slumber. It seems that society has not. And will not.